Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners 4 ohms M80 with Nad T765

First, I would like to mention I don't know very much about AV's and speakers.

I recieved the speakers a few days ago M80 and VP150. Wondering
if my receive is adequate for the M80 and also is there a burn in period for the M80. Just not 100% convinced with them as of yet.
I have a Nad T765HD

regards,

Gerry

Hi Gerry, there is no "burn in" period for your(or any) speaker, more of a burn in period for your ears so to speak. Your T765 NAD should easily power the M80s according to NAD's specs.

Hello groy67 and welcome.

There is no burn in period for the M80's. Nad makes some nice gear, as long as the amp is not shutting down/going into protect mode it should be just fine.

What you might be experiencing is that the M80's sound different than any other speaker you have owned before. Spend some days doing extensive listening, and see if you get accustomed to their sound.

Hmmm.. I was instantly happy with my m80's.

What speakers did you primarily listen to before you purchased the m80's?

What type of music do you typically listen to?

Are you using any EQ or room correction software such as Audyssey?

How far are your speakers apart from each other, how far are they from the back wall, and how far are you from them?

How do you have them wired up?

Hi guys, Great forum!

I guess I'll answer a few question that you have asked.
a)My mains are approx 8' apart.
b)The music I like varies; Enigma, Eric Clapton, Sarah Brightman.
Mostly, I love watching movies.(Braveheart, Patriot, Troy etc...
c)I have Canton 507 Chrono series that I was using for the fronts but now I'm using them for the rears. They are only 3 weeks old.
d) I only used the auddesey funtion to calabrite my speakers.
e) the set up I used for the speakers are as follows;front main (large) centre (small) rears small and I have 2 subwoofers.
f) and my Av did clip once but I was little too anxious to try it at a high volume. My Nad has a soft clip funtion; what ever that means.
g)I'm using 12awg wire and BIAmped
Thanks for all your help. It's much appreciated!

If audyssey turned on any Room EQ features try turning them off (so that no EQ is Applied) and see how that sounds. I found that the audyssey EQ made my speakers sound worse. Many people have good results but I tried 3 times with mixed results at best.

You will want to change your fronts to small and use a crossover of about 60 or 80 hz more than likely.

Since the M80's are rear ported you can really change how they sound by moving them closer or farther from the back wall. Generally speaking, moving them closer to the wall will add a little emphasis on the bass. Is your music collection in lossy (mp3) or lossless (flac, wav or CD) format?

What subwoofers do you have?

I am not sure what "soft clipping means"... I have never had my receiver shut down once with the m80's (using denon 3808) And I have played it PLENTY loud. Did your receiver shut down on you when you say it clipped or what happened?

How do the Cantons differ from the Axioms sound wise? Make sure you do as noted above by David. That will ease up on the receiver. I would also forget the bi-amping too. Less of a load for the amp to drive.

I'm using Mp3 & Mp4 mostly with a C-200 Popcorn Hour media player HDMI output.
And yes when it clipped the Av did shut down.
The Canton's sounded brighter and cleaner and never clipped my AV before. lol but I am some how convinced the Axiom are better.
I'm using 2 PSB 10" subs.

So you're saying for the fronts to have the cross over at 60 to 80 hz?
hmm I'm surprised about biamping; because the "guy" from the audio place said; "it's always the best way of doing it".

Don't believe what the "audio guy" tells you. He's there to make money, we are not. Yes set to small and cross the M80s at 60 or 80HZ. Same with the Cantons if you have not done so.

I believe those Cantons might also be a 4 ohm speaker which could be stressing the amp some if you're running them as rears with the 80's. My M80's sound nice within the limitations of my Denon, but there's a point where you can hear things start to get a little ragged(loud!)...probably a combination of overpowering the room if not the amp.

Also, try towing the speakers inwards a few degrees to see if that helps. Best advice, Imo, is to listen to them for a couple of weeks to get used to them before you do some serious, critical listening.

Hi Rick,
Sorry I'm quoting the wrong ppl. Just getting used to this posting thing.
The Canton sounded brighter. And never clipped my Av before.
I'm surprised about biamping; because the "guy" from the audio place said; "it's always the best way of doing it".

Try and not biamp them and see if there is a difference, I highly doubt it. Those Cantons do drop into the 4 ohm range also. You could be hearing the amp distorting with the M80s, hence a harsher sound.

Thanks Adrian I will try that. Also, just checked my Cantons have Nominal Impedance of 4 to 8 ohms

Hope I wasn't insulting; as it was not my intention?
I have not tried that and would never in a millions years would known to try it. I'm going to give it a shot. Thank you
Just want to mention this site is great! Everyone eager to help.
Thank you very much!

Oh no, you said nothing wrong. Sorry if I came across a bit harsh.

Just wondering why you went with two different brands of speakers? You could have saved some serious money going with the Axiom QS8 for surrounds.

Well, I have some Canton GL series for my rears and I wanted something bigger and better I guess. It gets a little addictive I think. lol -I bought the Canton Chrono series for the fronts as I had PSB before. Then I lloked on line for reviews and specs and came accross Axioms; well the rest is history. Like I said I'm kind of addicted of getting the best sound. lol I need help

Gerry, the M80s(and all Axioms) are a revealing speaker as well, so if the source is poorly recorded, that's what you'll hear. On the other side of the coin, a well recorded cd will sound wonderfull.

Yes, the Axiom are a beautiful speaker and the fun part is tweeking a new toy. I will tweak away and try to get the best out of the speakers. Tomorrow... when the family is up I will try to implement all your advise. And I'll take your advise and make sure I'm using a quality recording.
What do you think of using an Spl meter and tunning CD? Just curious.

I don't own an SPL meter, but many guys use them with great success. My receiver has Audyssey which some people love and some hate....it seems to work for me, but someday I'll get myself a meter/test tones and try doing a comparison.

I'm off to bed. And thank you for all your help! I'll keep you updated with my successes.

Hopefully you don't mean your successes in bed.

Hopefully, he DOES. I need some good stories!

Groy, play around with placement a bit. Floorstanders, with their greater bass output, can be a little more susceptible to bad placement.

Also, you said your primary source is MP3s. Are those "typical" MP3s at 128kps? If so, spend 10 bucks on a Diana Krall CD to setup and compare the speakers. Whether you love her jazzy style or not is irrelevant, her music is recorded very, very well. The Axioms are very revealing speakers, as mentioned above, garbage in, garbage out.

Also, as mentioned above, turn off any Audyssey-type processing. Temporarily, you can measure the distances to each speaker or simply guesttimate. Processing like that will change the sound of the speaker; not infrequently for the worse.

Finally, if those Cantons have a one-month return trial, do all this quick so you can decide to order QS8s for the rear (assuming of course that you'll love the Axioms once you get everything dialed in). I used to be a big fan of Cantons back 20 years ago when I last heard them, so I don't mean any disrespect towards them, but many people consider the QS8s to be about THE best surround speakers out there, and would not only envelope you in sound better than the direct-radiating Cantons, but match with the M80s better too.

Let us know how you make out!

LamO!! That's funny!

LOL No good stories to tell...

I will give it a go and try to tweak the set up some more. I'll
keep you guys up to date. Thanks again for you help.

What bitrate are the mp3's that you listen to?

I'm not too sure... I'll have a look when I get home.
However, I am using a C-200 Popcorn Hour Media player that is connected to my A/V receiver using HDMI

Gerry

Hi and welcome,

Lots of good advice given by others, but just to update you a little, NAD's "soft-clipping" circuit has been a feature for years of NAD amplifiers. What it does is, at the expense of slightly increased overall distortion (measurable but likely inaudible), it prevents the "hard" and nasty-sounding waveform clipping of conventional solid-state amps driven past their limits. I'd leave soft clipping turned off if I were you.

One poster suggests that the possible 4-ohm load of the Cantons combined with the 4-ohm M80s may be a bit too much for the NAD, and I'd agree.

In the past, Canton speakers had a very "Germanic" sound typical of lots of German brands---a somewhat pumped-up boomy bass, recessed midrange and greatly exaggerated upper highs--cymbals, etc. We used to call it "boom and tizz".

The Axiom M80s are more "linear", better balanced through deep bass, midrange and highs. That will make them sound quite different from your Cantons if the Cantons still have the German voicing.

And for sure try some good movie soundtracks and CDs. MP3 stuff at 128 kbps played over linear speakers like the M80s will reveal any audible defects. Use 320 kbps or higher files to preserve transparency and avoid harshness.

Regards,
Alan

Hi Alan,
Thank you for your response! I've been reading lots of info on internet and your name comes up a lot. It's great; that you took your time to advise me on the particulars. I will switch the "soft clip" to off and use a good quality recording.

Maybe, I'll purchase the QS8 speakers for surrounds and put my Canton's up for sale.
Maybe, I should upgrade my A/V?

BTW here's the spec's for the canton's;just incase my AV can handle the Cantons.(NAD T765HD) Not too savy when it come AV stuff.

Type Floorstanding speaker
Engineering Principle 2½-way Bass reflex system
Nom. /Music power handling 110 / 170 watts
SPL (1 watt/1m) 87.5 db (1 W, 1 m)
Frequency response 25...40.000 Hz
Crossover frequency 300 / 3.000 Hz
Woofer 1 x 180 mm (7''), Aluminum (Wave surround)
Midrange 1 x 180 mm (7''), Aluminum (Wave surround)
Tweeter 1 x 25 mm (1''), aluminum-manganese
Nominal Impedance 4...8 ohms
Dimensions (WxHxD) 19 x 95 x 29 cm
(7.5'' x 37.4'' x 11.4'')
Weight 16.3 kg


Thank you,
Gerry

Like was said a few times, I would consider, seriously consider, getting your money back on the Canton and buying a set of Axiom QS8s. IMO it will be an over all better sounding system.

I would agree with Wid. Also, can you get the same customer service and forum interaction from your canton speakers?

But if he likes the Cantons better... I just gotta put that out there, as much as I love my Axioms.

Bottom line, mixing the Cantons and the Axioms in the SAME system this way probably isn't the best idea.

At least not without an external amp.

Hi Gerry and welcome to the Axiom forums. I read that you were trying to biamp the M80s with your receiver because this is what the audio guy advised. (What did the cable guy advise? ) You cannot biamp the M80s without an external active crossover. I asked Alan once and this was his reply:

"Terminals on the M80s do not permit true bi-amping. The gold straps only separate the upper and lower frequency portions of the M80's crossover. The internal crossover still remains active.True bi-amping would involve removing the M80s's crossover entirely and substituting an outboard electronic crossover that allows independent selection of crossover frequencies, slopes, etc. and the use of two or three amplifiers for the woofers, midrange drivers and tweeters.For all practical purposes, bi-amping of speakers in domestic set-ups does not bring audible benefits. In double-blind tests I've performed, I could not distinguish between bi-amped speakers and the same speakers fed through its own passive internal crossover."

I wonder why they include the ability to bi-amp... maybe to cater to the few that consider it a must have?

That's pretty much my understanding.

Those Cantons are not very sensitive at 87db, be sure to calibrate all the speakers to the same levels from your seating position otherwise you may find inconsistencies when comparing the sound quality.

Hi Guys,

After reading many of your suggestions ; all great of course!
I've decided that I'm going to buy QS8. It should round off the system much better. I can tell you already after trying all your suggestions the system does sound better. But I can hear a difference between the cantons and the axioms.

When I receive the other speakers I'll let you know how they sound. Can't wait!

Thanks again!

Are you returning the Cantons?

Not too sure... I'm going to try the new rears then I'll decide. Called the store where I purchased the Cantons and they're happy to extend my trial period.
Amazing, I thought. I really got a good deal on the Canton. Anuways, we'll see.

Sounds like you are getting some good CS from the store, kudoos to them, far too many stores are not willing to do those types of things these days.

Hi,
The bit rate I prefer to use is 192 and up...

Has anyone here use the SPL meter app from Iphone?

I think David(terzhagi) did, very recently.

Some might disagree but that some of what you are hearing is the inadequacy of MP3 recorded compressed all the way down to 192 KBPS. As Mark mentioned, purchase a Dianna Krall CD or some other famously well recorded CDs such as Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" or my personal favorites for musical demos, Dire Straights' "Brothers in Arms" or the Dave Mathews and Tim Reynolds "live at Radio City" concert DVD (or BR). The first has a greater range of sounds and frequencies to evaluate but the second is such a pure recording of two guitars that it can bring tears to your eyes on a good system.

Also, take the time to listen to them over a longer period of time. Try not jumping back and forth between the Canton's and the M80s. I find that the brain takes time to adjust to new sounds/speakers. Every time I come home and listen to my M60s after listening to a car radio for a long drive, the M60s sound a bit off. After a few songs however, they return to amazing musical bliss. It does take a while to adjust.

Fiddle with the placement, source, etc as others have suggested and try listening to the M80s only for a couple of days. then try the Cantons again. Since you still have time, you can return whichever make you less happy in the end.

Good sound needs to equate to your personal happiness so whichever works best for that.

The problem with that is that audio memory is about 3 seconds. I proved this to myself during our listening tests between the M22s and M50s (ages ago), when I came back into the room after a little while and couldn't tell which speakers were on--without a sub.

All I can tell you is that for me personally, it takes 2 to 3 songs before I 'adjust' to my home speakers after listening to others for an extended period.

Of course, it's all within the mind. Obviously the speaker does not change during that time so you can say "Bah, it's all in your head." and either way, 3 seconds or three songs, you'd be right.

The thing is, if you give yourself time to adjust, you're just testing one remembered perception against another. You're not really comparing the speakers (says the person who just did exactly what he's advising against...)

lol very confusing...
It's funny when you get hooked on getting the best out something; as you can.
I'm currently using Limewire to download music (not sure if Im allowed to mention)but just noticed that I could just put the type of codecs in the search area. Surprisingly, I'm finding a fair amount of good stuff.

Feel free to mention it, but watch out for viruses.

Ahh, that's why we are disagreeing with each other. I am not talking about comparing the two speakers at this particular point. I am talking about taking some time to get used to listening to them, play some different types of music (good sources), evaluate over time. This way you will get to hear a lot of different types of music, different sounds, different frequencies. In short, extend the test drive so you get a good feel for them.

Sorry to confuse.

Not only viruses, but a lot of the music you get might be of low quality. In general, the music downloading community wants quantity not quality.

Unless you get your FLACs from Sweden.

Sails away quickly.

Yeah, but then your speakers smell like lutefisk.

And no one, but no one, wants their speakers to smell like lutefisk.

Perhaps, but as long as I can imagine my mains look like Marie Serneholt & Sara Lumholdt I’m ok with that.

Yes I totaly agree... but alot of the stuff I'm downloading has a bitrate higher than 900 or more. I look for files with flac codecs.
The Limewire I'm using I purchased and seems to be be bullet proof thus far; not to say something won't get by. That's the chance I'm willing to take. Also, the computer I'm using doesn't have anything that is a "must keep".

I would like to buy a Anthem MCA 30 amp to add to my Nad T765.
Wonder if that would be a good combination?

I've owned an Anthem MCA 20 in the past and it worked very well. The parts are top notch and the heat sinks are enormous and keep it cooled very well. I also had an Anthem PVA 7 that had the same quality, just less power. Anthem is a great brand, and you'll pay for it.

I bought my amps used for a very reasonable price and then sold them 2 years later for more than I paid. That might be an option for you.

I should also add, it won't change the sound, only the dB's.

Thank you for the advise. It's much appreciated.

Well, it's all done... I've decided to keep the Axiom's.
I must lost over 10 pounds moving the speakers around, around and
around. Thank goodness thats's over!

If I may ask another questions; is their a difference between a regular CD player and a blu-ray. (eXcept for the obvious lol) beat you to it. lol
Better sound quality?

Forgot to mention, I purchased a used 3b Bryston to move the mains. It helped it alot!

Yay, Bryston!

Well, if you're just playing CD's, there shouldn't be any discernible difference. If you want to play DVD's or Blu-Ray Disks, a CD player won't help you.

Thank you for the info...

Gerry

actually, tomtuttle, is not exactly correct. a good example is the Oppo BD-83se the Oppo is a blue ray player.. the obvious but the not so obvious, in its 2 channel stereo out put, each channel has 4 DAC's so there is a Lot of sampling. If you read the review there is a significant notice according to the people reviewing this player. They basically went WAY overkill on the stereo section on this unit. They also put a better power supply in the unit as well.


I will tell you, the SE costs 899$.. the regular BD-83 is 499$

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/blu-ray-BDP-83SE-Review.aspx


The thing that matters is the quality and number of DAC's that the player has. No matter what kind of player it is. If your using analog outs? You didnt specify what kind of interconnects your wanting to use, HDMI or analog?

Gerry, your question isn't entirely clear, but if you mean can a Blu-ray player play CDs just as well as a "dedicated" CD player can, the answer is yes. Playing CDs has reached a state of technological maturity quite a while ago and even very modestly priced players(including those that also play DVDs and Blu-rays)do so with audibly flat response and inaudibly low noise and distortion. Better than that isn't possible, despite manufacturer claims and fanciful reports of some reviewers.

Tom and JohnK are exactly correct..

Randy's right.

Rick's correct.

Two-cute-kids guy would not necessarily be incorrect.

The vague compliment guy might be onto something if I can figure out what he's onto.

Good to know, I'll stick to tubes and vinyl's so I can have some fun with distortion and harmonics.

lol Aagin thanks for all you help.
I was told running great RCA cables fro quality Cd player I would notice a differnce. A cleaner truer sound?

Also, I'm thinking of setting another system for my wife in the den. Would anyone have any experience with a Sunfire Cinema Grand HT Amplifier 5x200w? I can pick 1 up for 800.00

Gerry

Nope. It won't make any difference at all.

Thank you!

While "great" RCA cables won't make a difference over "sufficient" ones. The cables which come with a lot of CD players are less than sufficient. If the outside diameter of the cable's insulation is only about 3mm, you'll want to get something better.

...but not $50 better...

If I still did the analog thing, I'd probably pay about $29 for a stereo pair of RCA interconnect cables.

Monoprice.

Make your own cables with RG59 or RG6 coax and some RCA ends. It is cheap and the cables are great, you get your exact desired lengths too.

And you get to use a crimper, which just makes you feel good inside.

I went with compression fittings and yes it does make you feel good inside

lol