Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater HT in an apartment

Hello, I'm moving in july and I would like to make some place in my new apartment and I think that Axiom OnWall speakers would do this job. The room is an open living room/dining room I would say about 18'x15'x8'. The sitting position will probably be around 8 feet from the TV.

I actually have a mix up of many speakers that I bought over the years when I found some great sales (more than 50% sales!). I have a Precision Acoustics HDC center channel with Klipsch F-1 floor standing front speakers mix with Polk Audio M20 rear channel speakers. Pretty mix up but I only paid 450$ for all those speakers! I also have a Sony receiver and 8" subwoofer.

Music and movies are about 50/50 of my listening. I was thinking going with the M3 for front and M2 for rear both OnWall with VP100 and EP125 the complete the setup. I'm thinking about the new Pioneer VSX-820-k for receiver.

What do you think about that choice? Anybody have any other suggestions?

Thank you and sorry for my english!

That size of a room (2160 sq ft) may be stretching the limits of those speakers. I would want to upgrade a little and at least go with the M22 on walls and an EP350 instead of the 125. I think I've read where 2000 sq ft is about the limit for the EP175 (Edit: I had EP125 here before, it should have been EP175).

I know from your post that you like to keep the cost down. You could always try any setup you choose, with the ability to trade up or just send it back within the first 30 days, and only be out the return shipping charge.

Welcome Sebastien. Did you have a budget in mind at all?

Since I'm in an apartment I would not want to disturb the neighbors with a big subwoofer. For the room size, does it make a difference that the speakers will be place in a square that is approximative 10X10' since the rest of the room will be occupied by the dining table or it is only the total size that count? I'm not listening to music and movies very loud but the M22 could be an option. What is the difference between having two 5 1/4" woofers vs one 6 1/2"? The reason I went with the M3 at first was because my Klipsch are similar as they have only 1 6 1/2" woofer. Since I just finish my studies and that I have some debt for having studied for 8 years (and still going for another 5 years!) I'm on a budget and I would not pay more than 2000$ for the whole thing. Thanks.

The M3's and M22s have a slightly different sound from one another. The M22s are a little more forward sounding. this means the midrange(vocals etc) sound like they are in front of the music, while the M3s are slightly laid back meaning the midrange and upper frequencies are slightly less noticeable. The M22s will also play slightly louder and IMO, cleaner at lower volumes. I found the M22s to be more detailed when played at lower volumes.

You take the entire space into consideration, especially for lower frequncies, as well as the listening position. If the listening space is only 10x10 you would be about 6-8' away, so either one of the 2 speakers you are looking at would work nicely.

Yeah, I thought about the EP350 comment after I left it as probably too much for an apartment. The on-wall M22's and the bookshelf M22's sound totally different from each other. There is really little comparison, IMO. To my ears, the on-walls reach higher than the bookcase, but the bookcase reach much-much lower than the on-walls. The mid-range is the only place where they compare. For an apartment, and a room that size, I would definitely go with the bookshelf M22's, even if I have to wall mount them to either side of the TV. That would eliminate the need for a sub altogether. (It has been said that wall mounting the bookshelf M22's provide much more bass than on stands).

Although I can appreciate the nice clean look of an On-wall system, given the size of room you have I'd try and opt for some bookshelf M22's as Cat stated to get a little more bass as well as the benefit of being able to place them where they'll sound best.

Sebastien, does your budget include a receiver, or are you going to use the Sony?

I believe I'd also opt for a pair of the bookshelf M22's.

You'll definitely need a sub with the on-walls. You can certainly get away with a sub in an apartment, but some sort of isolation for it and a light hand on the volume knob is necessary.

Bah, its barely enough in my apartment!!

Well, ok, the EP350 does pretty well in here.

I think that either the M3 or M22 would provide enough volume for your space. Some questions.

1. what kind of music do you listen to? The M22 is an excellent speaker, but less forgiving of 'not so well' recorded music. Most classical and jazz and some rock/pop music is very well recorded and will sound stunning on the M22. A lot of rock/pop is quite compressed and rather poorly recorded and would actually sound better on a more laid back speaker.

2. Do you plan to use your system to play music at normal levels while you are in other parts of the room or the apartment. I love to crank out the tunes while I'm cooking. My M80s have plenty in the tank to sound good at louder levels (80-85db) in my semi open kitchen. It gets a tad loud in the living room...

3. What sort of construction is the apartment? I live in a concrete bunker and have had the windows rattling from the lfe in Serenity at 1:30am. Neighbours never heard a thing. If you have concrete (blocks or poured) between you and your neighbours you are fine going loud and low. If ist drywall over studs, you might want to go easy on the bass.

1. The music I listen the most is Progressive Rock and Rock like Yes, Genesis, Frank Zappa, Bela Fleck, Gentle Giant, Rush... I sometimes listen to Blues, Classic and Fusion Jazz too... The only thing I dont listen to is Pop music and Hip Hop but my girlfriend does that.

2. I rarely crank up the volume since most of the time my girlfriend is at home studying in the other end of the apartment. I think I have sensitive ears as I'm always the one who turn down the volume when I'm with my friends and I always have tinnitus for 1 week when I come back from a Rush show!

3. There is 4 apartment in the block and we're at the bottom. The owner assured me that it was well insulated for the sound and there is concrete between the apartments but I only move in next month so I can't tell if it's true.

Bookshelf are not really an option for me. I already have Floorstanding Klipsch F-1 and some polk M10 bookshelf and I am satisfied with their quality of sound. The only reason I change my setup is to make some place as my new apartment is smaller. I'm gonna keep what I already have if most of people think that on wall speakers would be a big downgrade in quality of sound from what I have and only change my receiver that is getting useless. Note that I do not care if they do not sound as loud since I almost never push the volume high.

My budget include a new receiver as the sony doesn't even take audio from HDMI, probably go with the Pioneer VSX-820 or Denon 790. My budget also include a subwoofer hesitating between the EP125 and EP175, the EP350 not being in my budget range.

Most of what you listed is well recorded and will sound great on the M22. I would go with them. You can always downgrade without penalty if its during the evaluation period.

You can always hold off on the sub until you know for sure about the conctete between apartments. The EP350 really is a much better sub than the EP175.

M22 on-wall, VP100 on-wall and an EP175 should leave you enough in your budget for a pretty decent receiver I would think. If you find that a little too close to going overbudget you could try going through the factory outlet to save some $$. Don't worry about the quality of the FO speakers, at worst they will have some very minor blemishes, at best you'll see no blemishes at all and sonically they are the same as the non-FO speakers.

Be careful. Playing a movie with loud gun fire might get you a visit from the police when a neighbor mistakes it for real "shots fired". Just make sure there's no drugs, illegal firearms or underage runaways visible when you open the door and you should be fine.

I could never go back to apartment living.

If the EP175 pushes your budget I wouldn't hesitate to look elsewhere for your subsonic needs. While the quality of Axiom subwoofers is top notch, they are pricey IMO for what you get. The rest of Axiom's speaker line up are a steal if you ask me. But not their subwoofers, you can find subs that put out more bass for less money if it's an issue for you.

If you're like me thought and are looking to keep the same name on your entire set-up, then by all means test drive the EP175 and see what you think. It might just be all you need. Oh and I can't wait to hear your impressions of the on-wall M22's (or M3's, whatever you decide on) compared to your current Polk's. I could be wrong, but I think you're going to find a big improvement. Perhaps not right out of the box, give your ears a good week or two to really get used to the clean playback of the Axiom speakers. They don't color music like a lot of other speakers do, so they can sound a bit different if you're used to a speaker that does color music. But once you've listened to them for a while and gotten used to hearing music the way it was intended to be heard you will be hooked.

I came off a pair of Cerwin Vega's that at the time I thought were pretty decent. They were lost in a fire, and I went a while without anything at all while I hunted for my new set-up. Once I got these babies (I have the M80's, which have been compared to the M22's only with more bass) in my living room the music coming out of them is so clean, crisp, and detailed... I hear so much more with these speakers than I ever did with my Cerwin Vega's. Every sound recorded, no matter how faint it may have been, is revealed in the recording with these speakers. It gives so much more space and depth to the performance, IMO.

Like I said, it may take you a little while to really appreciate them (it didn't me, I was blown away from the second I hooked them up... but I've heard some on here say that at first they weren't so sure if they liked them or not until they'd listened for a while), just remember you have 30 days to decide. So by all means hook them up, and play them as much as you can in those 30 days. Make sure you think the 175 will do the job if that happens to be the subwoofer you get. Give them a good work out. I know you said you don't like to turn the volume up very often, but put on a live Rush CD and listen to it at reference levels, like you were at a concert. I think you'll be floored by how well they sound. You just might never need to go to another Rush concert again!









....... I'm kidding. I LOVE listening to Dave Matthews on my Axioms, still I will NEVER stop going to see him in concert. His performances are just too incredible to miss.

I just moved out of an apartment and for most of the time was using floor standing speakers with no problem. If you are just looking at options that’s great but for now if you like the sound of the speakers you have I would keep them and try them out in the apartment.

Your Klipsch F-1s are rated down to 38Hz +/-3dB which is going to give you pretty good bass for an apartment and your music preferences while minimizing what goes through the walls and ceiling. Once you move in you can also ask your neighbors to let you test your system by turning it up until it’s either as loud as you like it or they think it’s to loud. That way if they think your F-1s are to loud they are going to hate you for getting a subwoofer.

As others have said if you get on-wall speakers you’re going to need a sub which is also going to take up space. Plus a sub is more likely to bother your neighbors. Also, even though the room is small the towers give you the option to move them around a little for better soundstage. On-wall speakers are not as easy to move. Plus, if you get carpet/tile sliders you can even keep the tower speakers pushed up against the wall so they are out of the way when you are not using them and then slide them out farther to get a better soundstage when you are watching a movie or critically listening to music.

If after moving in you find that your neighbors might not mind you having a subwoofer you can always get some on wall speakers to try out if you don’t like how much room the F-1s take up. But remember the sub will also take up space although it could be used as an end table or something.

One other thing to consider is using a something like a Buttkicker:

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/home_theater/products/bk_lfe_kit.htm

I used one in my apartment and while it felt like I had a big subwoofer running none of the shaking went through the walls or floor. Combined with the bass from your F-1s a Buttkicker shaking your couch (seats) will give you a great home theater feeling but without bothering anyone else.

So my short answer is keep the speakers you have for now.

Cheers,
Dean

So is it less important to match the subwoofer witch the front speaker than to match the front with center and surround?

Does anybody have any suggestion for a good sub around 400$? What I have found local is: Klipsch (SW-450) for 400$, Boston Acoustics (CS SUB 10) for 330$, Energy (ESW-C10) for 300$, Polk (PSW-125) for 440$ and Paradigm (PDR-10) for 430$. Note that I do not need a sub that will make everything shake since i'm in an apartment but I really want a precise subwoofer that will be great when listening to music.

And if I resume what I understand from all comment I received (thank you all!), tell me if i'm wrong:
1. M22 would be a better choice over the M3
2. Bookshelf M22 would be better as it will give more in the lower end but mix with a good subwoofer, the On-wall M22 would give me a similar listening experience.
3. EP125 and EP175 would barely give enough bass range mixed with the M22 On-wall.

Thanks

1. Yes.
2. You could easily enjoy the M22 bookshelf without a subwoofer, whereas the on-wall M22 needs one.
3. EP125 was designed for small rooms. Yours is around 2160 sq ft. The EP175 was designed for rooms 2000 sq and smaller. But it should have enough bass for the on-wall M22. I've got an EP175 on order that I will be using with on-wall M22 in a 1800 sq ft room, so I won't know for sure until I hear the combo.

I'm with you , Dean. As long as I was living in an apartment, I would get my bass from my existing floorstanders and scrap the sub idea. Now, you might want to consider the QS4 or QS8 surround speakers as I think that would improve your movies dramatically.

I think CatBrat answered your questions well.

For a $400 sub, I would look at the A2-300 or one of the other similarly priced models from Elemental Designs.

If you like to build things, I'm kind of amused by the Quartet 10 subwoofer kit from Creative Sound solutions for US$339.

Yes IMO there is no need to match up a subwoofer with the rest of the speakers. That being said some subwoofers are definately more accurate than others, and I feel when you spend money on Axiom subwoofers you are paying for the accuracy that they give. However I have heard really postive things about companies such as HSU, SVS, eD and a few others that come in at a much lower price point. So if it were me I would give them a try, if I'm not mistaken most of them also have trial periods in which to test drive them out.

And the same goes for the on-walls compared to the bookshelves. If it's on walls you're after then I say order the on-walls and a sub and see if that combo satisfies your needs. If you feel the mid-range is lacking you can always send them back for the bookshelves and see if they fill that gap better.

Can't wait to see what you decide to do, and how they perform for you. Good luck!

A couple of other good quality, reasonably priced(many times on sale) subs that get positive writeups but not too many mentions, are the Energy/Mirage units. They are also fairly compact for the most part, which sounds like it might be an important consideration in an apartment where space is a little more limited.

I think I've made my choice. Since I want to clear some space and do not want to build some shelf for the M22's I will try the M22 OnWall matched with M2 for surround and VP100 for center.

I've decided not to go with the QS4 because they would be place behind me and I read that they are better when place on the side and that unipole do a great job when place behind the sitting area. The M2 are also a lot cheaper and that's good for me!

I did a little research for a subwoofer, thank you very much guys because I discovered option that I've never heard of them before. I've decided to go with the Elemental Designs A3s-250. I hesitated between Axiom EP175, HSU STF-2, SVS PB10-NSD and the eD. I've chosen the eD because it is the smallest with good performance and price. I also think that a sealed enclosure from what I read would be good for an apartment and eD also offer free shipping to Canada, the only extra cost will be the Customs fees.

Thank you all for helping me and don't be afraid to comment if you think the match is not good since I will only order the setup in like a month.

Sebas

Awesome, I'm excited for you! Can't wait till you get everything hooked up & can give us a throrough report on the way it all works together. I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on the eD subwoofer since we recommend them a lot even though not many members here actually have one.

You will be someone who will actually have experience with them, so you can either back up our recommendation for them, or refute it. Keep us posted!

Excellent Sebas! Let us know how the ED sub works out. The specs certainly look good.

I really like the looks of that sub.

I'd still get QS4's or QS8's for the surround speakers, though.

Keep us informed when you set everything up, Sebastien. Also, I'm curious to know what extra fees Customs tacks on....

+1 on Tom's recommendation on the Q's.

+2

+13342

See? I am useful.

eD stuff is probably very good... But seriously, who names a company E.D.?

Lulz

"E. D....come to my Home Theatre...."

It isn't a shelf you needed for the bookshelf's, it's 2 of these brackets, but they are a little pricy here. I've heard you can get cheaper elsewhere.

It could be worse. 'Elemental Designs' could have been named, 'Futuristic, Revolutionary, Elemental Designs".

Coulda named it Bertha...