Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: Woodworking help

This is pretty OT, but I've got a question that someone here might be able to help with.

Some of you might know that I've been building an entertainment center for nigh on a year now. It's almost done, but I really screwed up the finishing part of it, and I need some advice on fixing it.

The project is white oak. I'm using Minwax oil based finish and a separate polyurethane (brush on). I put on 2 coats of finish, and one coat of poly. So far, so good (beautiful, actually). Then I read the instructions on the back of the poly can that said to sand down the poly before applying a second coat. So (here's the stupid part), I got out the orbital sander and some 320 grit sandpaper, and proceeded to sand that mutha. Oops. I seem to have gone through at least one level of stain (and the poly, obviously!) in most areas and left pretty awful scratches on it. I would just resand the whole thing (sigh-that's a lot of work!), but significant parts of it are white oak plywood-which has already been sanded a bit with 180 and 320 grit paper. I don't want to risk taking off all the veneer. I tried just repolying on side of it and it looks horrible. Anyone have any ideas or do I just need to hand sand it very, very carefully?

My current thought is that I'll try to sand off the poly and just restain it.

BTW, this is my first major project, and the first thing I've ever finished.

Thanks, guys!

I've done a bit of refinishing on garage sale furniture (solid cherry night stands, solid maple coffee table and end tables, solid birch bedroom set, etc...) and I've found the best results are to be had by applying the clear coat with a small cloth (not a brush), allowing it to dry completely, then using something like steel wool to buff off any bubbles, and covering it again with clear coat. It won't ever be perfect so once you get it done to where you're satisfied - STOP!
As far as that one spot goes, why not just slap some stain on the exposed part, let dry and re-cover with the clear?

As a last last last resort, you could always paint it.

[ducks]

DIE DIE DIE!

There. You got what you wanted.

Ken, i did something similar to an Ikea dining table about 3 years ago, except without the big booboo. The table came out quite nicely for one of my first major wood finishing projects.
You may hate my answer...but...here's my amateur recommendation: You really should sand down the entire face area that contains the little mistake, restain then re-poly.

If you try to restain just the spot, you might be able to make this patch work but i'm guessing it may come out rather visibly different than the rest of the side.
Note to self for future: i hand sanded the poly between coats LIGHTLY just to remove surface bubbles (micro bubbles at that) just as Bigwill suggests. Think of it like a car polish at this stage. The hand sanding takes longer, but you lessen the chance you will go through the poly coat.
After the first sanding and cleaning, the 2nd poly coat should feel alot more solid and thick. By the third coat, it should be as smooth as Peter's baby's bottom.

Perhaps I was not specific enough. I screwed up the whole darn thing, not just one little spot. This is what happens when you do your work at night in a garage lit by a single bulb-onna-hook.

Got the sanding bit for between the poly coats down, now, I think. 320, by hand, not very much.

On a more serious note, I agree with chess. Sand down as only as much as you need so that whatever remains looks uniform. You don't have to sand all the stain away unless that's what you need to do to make it look good. There should be enough thickness left to accomodate that unless the stain penetrated really deep. Oak is a hard wood so that shouldn't be the case.

BTW, Ken's turning 28 this weekend. Everyone buy him a gift cert!!

The slightest of buffings on that poly. Just enough to take the shine off and give the layer some tooth.

Well in that case Ken, i reiterate:
You really should sand down the entire face area that contains the little [now large] mistake, restain then re-poly.

The poly coats do not take much to sand, you've got that right. Just like car polish, no serious grinding. Kinda like wiping your face with a damp cloth.

Hey, thanks for the plug!

Well, from the sound of the advice so far (keep it comin' if you got it!) I'm not in as deep a yogurt as I thought. Basically, even it out, then restain. I can deal with that.

ive always had good results when using a foam brush-like a sponge-and light HAND sanding between coats,and you can use a tack cloth after sanding to remove any small particles before the next coat...good luck with your project...ron

Well, I finally got to look at the thing again this weekend (the shop I'm using is 100 mi away), and it wasn't quite as bad as I thought. I hand sanded it down almost to the wood with 220 and 320, and it looks ok (ie, I didn't destroy the veneer on the plywood). I haven't stained it yet. There's still small scratches on the top from the orbital sander (!!!), but I can't seem to get them out, so I'm going to hope that they hide themselves under the stain and poly.

Stain tends to accentuate scratches, actually.

I would try steaming the scratches out before staining over them. This technique works pretty well on softer wood, but I don't see how it could hurt to try it on your oak.

Dampen a few paper towels and fold them so your moisture pad is a few layers thick. Place the pad over the scratched area and then place a hot iron onto the pad. (Make sure not to touch the wood directly with the iron or it'll scorch.) The iron will start to force steam into the wood and cause it to swell slightly. Hopefully this will bring up the lower regions of the scratch. Allow the wood to dry completely and then lightly sand the area again.

I learned this trick in shop class way back in 8th grade.

Or I could just take down the top with some 60 grit and work back up from there. The top's not plywood, it's 3/4 inch white oak. Not much to be done about the plywood sides, though. (I think your technique would pretty much destroy them.) No worries. It'll be another month before I can do anything, anyway!

Problem solved.

Peter, you're killing me
You really are, just killing me!

I'm going to hurt you. If I wanted to do crap like that, I wouldn't have spent $200+ on hardwood!

My gosh, I can't believe I haven't touched the thing for almost two months...

Anyway, I just read an article on shellac, and it sounds great for this application (dries fast, easy cleanup, no odor, I can do it indoors at my place instead of 100 mi away, etc...) but I was wondering about one thing. I've read that it softens around 60-75 degrees C. I was going to use it as a clear coat instead of the polyurethane, but I didn't want to risk getting it overheated with the electronics. Any advice here? Am I likely to be in trouble if I use it?

The manufacturer says it'll be fine, with a coat of wax, but I guess I'm just a suspicious person...

Ken, stick with the urethane. Spend some time to do the hand sanding to get the last vestiges of the original urethane off. You can stain the whole thing again without a problem if required. Once that dries, put a coat of urethane on and let it dry.

When you sand the urethane, use 220 and sand WITH the grain lightly, not against it. All you are trying to do is remove the dust that settled as the drying occured. Repeat this urethane/220 sand process for every coat you put on. Before you put the last coat on, use very fine wet sandpaper. Last coat goes on, it dries and then you hand rub with 400 steel wool - LIGHTLY. You are looking to remove the dust again and put a nice shine on the finish.

This is just patient, butt-ugly, time-consuming work. When I start to get annoyed that I am doing it, it's usually time to put the sandpaper/steel wool away for the evening. Once again, I have stuck my nose in - Ijust hope it helps.

Sorry for the lengthy post

You can't apply shellac over urethane, it will peel. You would have to strip off all the urethane first. As for the sanding of the surface it depends on the size of the spot, from the sounds of it you really should sand down the whole surface, then re-stain and apply your top finish of choice. If you try to patch it you will always see the spot. There are a number of techniques we use to hide small blemishes that need to be touched up on the surface but, this applies only to blemishes that as a rule of thumb are no more then the size of a small knot in the wood. First projects are always the worst, you are excited to do it and impatient to finish it, which is what gets us into trouble. The clear finish on the project takes more time then most think depending on what you are trying to achieve. I just completed a new Cherry desk for my computer the varnishing alone has over 60 hours of labor in it to achieve the result I wanted. As for the comment about Oak being a hard wood so the stain should not penetrate it to deeply while accurate to Oak being a hard wood, it is a very open grain wood so the stain does penetrate very deeply into it, it is this penetration of the grain that gives you the dark details of the wood grain even after sanding. My advice would be to take a deep breath relax sand done the surface evenly, then apply your stain to even it out and re finish with your choice of clear coat top finish. but take your time and don't be in a rush to complete it, we always seem to have time to do things over but never enough to do it right the first time. Finally the scratches you have are the result of the first sanding you did being having a to aggressive grit, the sanding marks run very deep into the veneer and trying to remove them you run the risk of sanding through the veneer. you are best to get it down as smooth as possible the suggestion of steaming it may help you will have to try it to see. If you have the opportunity go to a store called Lee Valley great store for wood working, and they are also on-line at leevalley.com you can find everything you need for your wook working and lots of great books on finishes and techniques.

Good luck

OK, thanks, guys! Actually, I think all the poly is totally gone (I have gone over it with 220 and 320 after I screwed it up with the orbital). I'm down to almost bare wood in a lot of places. But basically, as I understand it, poly would still be better for my situation. (Which I don't have a problem with, it's just the shop is 100 mi away, and I only get up there once or twice every 2 months, and just for Saturday afternoon-Sunday afternoon). Yes, I'm getting rather impatient; I can't get my Axioms before I finish this thing!

As I recall, the scratches are mainly on the top at this point, which is 3/4 inch solid white oak, so sanding that down is not a problem. The sides are where the plywood/veneer issue is, but I think they're tolerable.

When I was using the orbital over the polyurethane, I was only using 220 grit sandpaper, but I guess that's enough to leave the scratches. Ah well.


Thanks for all the advice!

Ken - buy a sanding block, get some arm exercise!

Bren R.

Lee Valley is a great place to find wood working tools, and gardening tools, and christmas gifts, and...

Ken, i would stick with the urethane over the shellac. I think it has a nicer final look to it. Gloss or semi or satin?
I love the satin.

I had semigloss for the first time I did it, but then inadvertently bought satin for the second time around. So... it'll be satin.

Sounds like you're well on track, but since you're basically back at the beginning, I thought I'd add two possibly helpful suggestions. Consider 1) Water-based polyurethane OR 2) an oil-based finish / polyurethane that can be hand-wiped on, such as Watco or Minwax Wipe-On Poly. Watco would be my preferred solution.

Option 1, water-based poly, is great for light-colored finishes or natural finishes, and it sounds like yours qualifies. (Water-base is not recommended over dark finishes, though it can work fine on them, especially the recent formulas.) Water-based polyurethane is very user-friendly. Since California outlawed oil-based poly a few years back, the technology behind water-based polys has really come into its own, and the product, which is now used on wood floors as often or more often than oil-based, is great and PLENTY tough enough for your project. Having used both on many wood-working projects, and inhaled too many fumes, I am almost a 100% water-based person now, with just a few exceptions (and your project may be one—see option 2). Water-based polys dry more quickly than oil-polys, they are easier to clean up, easier on the environment, and their toxicity levels make it acceptable to apply them at home, which I've even done in a spare room inside the house. Now, I live in Texas, where warm weather and ventilation are plentiful, and you may have a different situation precluding home app. But even in the shop, a good water-based poly will be easier to apply than oil-base, because it dries much more quickly allowing more rapid application of coats, and less waiting time. Minwax makes good water-based poly coats, called Polycrylic, or get an expensive one at the local woodworking store. You can apply water-based poly directly over the minwax natural stain (or any of their stains). It's a good idea to use the minwax natural stain (or other light-colored stain) under the water-based poly, since the water-based finish is so clear it lends almost no tone to the wood. (Woodworkers sometimes add a few drops of amber coloration to water-based finishes, just to correct this.) By the way, if you're using oil-based urethanes and seeking a natural coloration, you don't need any stain—the oil finish will supply all the tone you need.

Option 2, wipe-on poly, also may lend itself to home application, depending on your set-up -- and perhaps this is the kind of product you used already, like Minwax's Wipe-On Poly. This is just regular polyurethane thinned to a consistency so you can apply it by hand. It works great for many projects, basically any where you don't need the high level of protection desired for, say, a dining room table. I'd use it without hesitation for an entertainment center -- but only in a ventilated garage, not in my house, since there are fumes. Wipe-on polyurethanes (and other wipe-on urethane-based finishes, like most things marketed as "Tung Oil," which is generally a urethane finish cut with some tung oil) are generally easier to apply than brush on varnishes and urethanes, and so they are recommended for first-timers, and much appreciated by experienced finishers too. Another popular wipe-on finish is Watco's natural danish oil. This is my favorite product for oak. Avoid the non-natural Watco colors, but the natural is essentially a very very thinned urethane varnish. It works great on oak. You get a natural, hand-rubbed look and feel (like their marketing materials say, actually) that's very nice -- in fact, this thin level of finish tends to look a lot nicer on oak than thicker film finishes. Film finishes on the thick pores of most oak can look pretty ugly.

Depending on your aesthetic tastes, this last idea may be the most important of all -- and may incline you toward option 2. Were I finishing an oak entertainment center, I'd go with several coats of Watco, since it's so easy to apply, or at most, a few thin coats of wipe-on poly. My own entertainment center is in fact finished in Watco natural, applied over a dark mahogany dye stain. The finish and color look great -- and so do the other pieces in our home finished with Watco. These were also pleasingly easy projects.

Hope this helps. Birdman.

PS - If you go with Watco natural, you also won't need to apply any Minwax stain, unless you're seeking a color other than natural. If you are seeking a color, then the Watco will work great over the stain -- just be sure to follow all instructions. (From past experience, it's good to wait at least 2-3 days after staining before appplying the Watco.)

Birdman

I'll second the water-based poly recommendation. I recently bought two pieces or solid wood unfinished furniture -- an armoire and a computer desk. Because it was more involved, I had the store finish the computer desk (they used oil-based poly), but I did the armoire myself with a satin water-based poly (WBP).

The WBP was very easy to work with. It goes on with a milky look, which helps you get even coverage and the brush marks (in my case I used a sponge applicator) disappear almost instantly. The one thing you have to be careful of, though, is drips, as it can run easily.