Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler R.I.P. AV123

AV123.com is officially closed for business!

Wow, never saw that coming

wow

That is so cool and it took way to long.

Normally I prefer more competition but since I first learned of that company 4 years ago it stank to high heaven and was IMO a blight on the ID audio industry. I certainly haven’t missed the “If you’re interested in those speakers you should consider the AV123 Rockets. They sound great look fantastic and RIGHT NOW they’re on sale!” posts that popped up in every “which of these speakers should I buy” threads over at AVS.

I'm glad I took someone's advice here and bought Axiom subwoofer instead of the AV123 one I was thinking about.

I feel sorry for the employees who had nothing to do with the scandal. I'm sure many of them believed in the company and its products.

This is a monumental day for the audio industry, consumers and most importantly bringing some closure for some of the victims. The market has spoken!

I agree, Peter.

Their leader, however, should be making licence plates for the next few years.

I never did follow all the drama and have no idea what you guys are referring to. What's the abbreviated version of the story? Or is it even worth getting into? If not, forget I asked.

Indeed. I read a thread over on avsforum about someone looking for a replacement driver because his MFW15 bottomed out so easily. I think the designer, Mark Seaton, squeezed as much as he could out of the design given the price constraints, but it was just not a good sub.

Yup. Not surprising in the least.

I know Grunt and myself would have made you stay clear of the MFW-15.

Michael,

It's a nasty and long story nasty and long story.

As Peter mentioned, it's a shame for the employees who worked there and were likely without fault, but IMO (and that of many others) it's about time that they shut 'er down.

Competition is usually a good thing, but when there's alleged fraud occurring, how could they possibly continue?

Michael the most recent drama surrounds two primary things, criminal charges of charity fraud against MLS (the owner?) and increasing QC problems culminating with the MFW-15 subwoofer. More generally from the way it looks to me the history of MLS problems date way back even prior to AV123 with his bad habits finally catching up with him in the aforementioned issues.

Essentially MLS has always been known for operating beyond his means. Relying on investors, prepays, and promises to meet operating/lifestyle costs. The result has been a string of business one of which was sold off going under shortly after. Most recently AV123 as far as I can tell never really was anything much more than a glorified “buyers clubs” which kept some inventory on hand but usually took orders until enough volume was created to fill a shipping container. So there was never a high capital investment in either production or research like Axiom.

AV123 seemed to operate primarily on hype dished out by MLS and spread by his fan base. When issues arose and they have for some years, like substandard crossovers, the fan base quickly stamped out any dissent. The occasional problem they could not quell was turned into a positive by the personal intervention of MLS who would take extraordinary measures to “take care of the person” usually creating a new fan and invigorating the existing fans with his awesomeness. So essentially AV123 existed primarily on the “good will” (in an accounting sense) of it’s rather rabid fan base and their spreading of the “word.” Any time someone really got tenacious about taking MLS to task in a forum he would play a sympathy card, he’s sick, family member sick, dog sick, and his fans would take the dissenter to task for being so mean to pick on someone when he’s down.

The first big hole in the armour was the MFW-15 amp problems which seem to be driven by AV123’s need to find ever cheaper suppliers, possibly cause by the economic downturn, resulting in even more QC problems than usual. They probably would have survived this if not for MLS and his fans pissing off one particular person who took it upon himself to shine a light on the workings of MLS and AV123.

The primary angle he(?), the vigilante, used was various charity raffles which word from some recipients (forum members) was that they never got all the money. This vigilantly seems to have collected enough information that when presented to the office of the Colorado State Attorney General they found sufficient grounds to start an investigation which finally lead to multiple charges of charity fraud against MLS.

The alleged fraud against various charities was enough to silence most of the AV123 fan base (a few diehards held out for a while) which allowed all the other problems AV123 was having to get the full air time that they deserved. With the “good will” evaporated there was really nothing left to keep AV123 afloat except for the greed of those willing to buy steeply discounted products. Real discounts this time and not the over inflated MSRP discounts they were always having.

AFAIK that’s it in a nutshell.

At the end of the day there was the president, CFO and 1 or 2 other employees from what I understand. Most of their additional staff, long time suppliers and engineers either moved on or due to restructuring were let go, up to a few years. The writing has been on the wall for the last few years. There is/was lots of time to find other/additional employment if one wished before the ship finally sank. This is not a surprise at all to the audio community, so it shouldn't be a shock to any of the employees working for them.

Grunt pretty much nailed it. AV123 also had a laundry list of vaporware and individuals waiting for refunds on defective merchandise or non-delivered product for years (up to 1-3 years). There were certain ethical and business practice issues which you also have to look at to get the bigger picture along with the alleged charity fraud.

Like Grunt eloquently pointed out, the customers acted as a buyers club. Then in time, this policy changed and the customers were still a "buyers club" but when you pre-ordered goods now to get the "sales price", that money was then turned into "store credit" which was then non refundable. This conveniently set up a lot of hype for in development/napkin sketch products which you can then pre-pay for a special once in a lifetime discount. People felt very comfortable doing this because of the re-enforcement from the AV123 following (their forum) and the company front man who had a lot of charisma and charm.

The infamous RSL-II vaporware was the latest and greatest vaporware from AV123. They even set up a fake company Act 3? or something to make these when they were initially looking for these pre-pays. Unfortunately, many individuals were taken in at $6000 a pair. This is just one example, there are plenty of other cases were people never received a product or their refund. The misdeeds go well beyond the alleged charity fraud, it is one big cluster ^%%$#.

Wow. Thanks for the information. That’s quite a story and one I had not paid any attention to. I do not participate on other forums in general. Just this one. About all I know of AV123 is when I was looking to buy some speakers after divorcing my second wife who wouldn’t let me spend any money on AV stuff. (so my first financial binge once single had to be speakers, of course). I heard about Axiom and Rockets at Audioholics, posted my first post here, which was the typical Rocket verses Axiom question. I really wanted the Rosewood 750’s, but their shipping costs killed the deal for me, so I ended up with Axioms and you guys have been stuck with me ever since. I did not visit the AV123 sight after that. The allegations are quite horrible in my opinion. I give a lot to charities every year, year after year, always have. Hearing the allegations disturbs me.

As the Dr. eludes to the sordid details of AV123s workings abound. I have no sympathy for it’s employees, venders and most of the customers who were duped. IMO they got what they deserved for not doing due diligence before entering into a relationship with AV123.

It’s also why I hesitate to enter into a business relationship with any company or individual that I know was in a business relationship with MLS. If I can spot a con from just internet form posts then they should have been able to see what they were dealing with. If they didn’t then they are to clueless to get a long term commitment out of me. If they did see it and carried on anyway then they are to shady to get anything out of me. Those that severed the relationship early score some points but not a full pardon.

Likewise I hesitate to enter into a business relationship with any company that promotes a rabid fan base. Thankfully Axiom doesn’t have a heavy employee presence in this forum and that which it does have isn’t likely to promote a “cult of personality.” This, coupled with the un-moderated nature of this forum (well occasionally some members get a bit zealous), and the open criticism of a few members, tends to “keep things real” here more than many other places devoted to a single brand.

Maybe a good time to resurrect this thread:

Online shopping: who are you really buy from

It is interesting to note that in their formative years of existence and then limited product line which were basically "Sunfire" clones, Emotiva sold their products through AVS123.

In the ensuing years of their departure from AVS, Emotiva and its product line has expanded exponentially. Perhaps the principals already saw what was happening and thought "better to take our chances on our own then eventually getting caught up in a doomsday scenario for our business".

Emotiva's debauchery of their latest pre-pro (UMC-1) has been discussed at great length as being a ToneWinner clone.

Geez you're a hardass Dean.

I personally haven't been sucked in by any scams like this, but then I am very cautious. I had the same reaction to AV123 as you did, but I have known others who turned out to be more scam than beef and it was not at all obvious from the outset.

Well there is a reason I joined the Marine Corps over the Peace Corps.

I agree Fred that not all scam artists are as easy to spot as MLS was. However, it still amazes me how people refuse to see things. Usually I only have trouble seeing the reality of the situation when it‘s a love interest.

The one thing that always bothered me about MLS, back when I was first looking for speakers, was how much time he spent on his forum and on AVS and others to quell the naysayers, I was willing to let by his own forum but just couldn't get past the other forum appearances.

Glad Jack and Ray jumped ship earlier.

But seriously. How does everyone really feel about AV123?

Dean, I agree completely that you're rightfully glad that no one else will be ripped off and they were giving a bad name to all online audio mfgr's.

However, not fur nuthin', isn't this a rabbid fan base? Don't misundertand. I really enjoy taking part in this forum (the only one ever for me) because topics are soooo all over the solar system, but I'm kinda glad I mindfully ignored all forums when speaker shopping. I had already been diggin' my Axioms for 4 months before I first started lurking.

Aren't these sorts of venues all fan-based, really? I mean, everyone gets really pissed when SolidState shows up and disses our favorite speaker company, nes pas?

Hey, hey, hey. The sexual harassment has to stop now!

And the "wink" only make it worse!

That was a twitch not a wink!

In a way, yes. This forum is pretty mellow. Nobody is calling Jerry names for not liking the M3s.

I think that there is a higher level of animosity here toward AV123 than some other brand’s forums because Axiom was a favorite target of certain AV123 fanboy hyperbole. The myth that Axiom speakers are harsh sounding was spread extensively by AV123 fanboys and some former affiliates with claims like “made my ears bleed.” As a result I for one have experienced much schadenfreude while following their demise.



Every forum, sometimes subforums in large places like AVS tend to have a brand loyalty. The difference is how the members act toward reasonable dissenting opinions. Most members here behave maturely. There are a few who occasionally display fanboyism but for the most part I don’t find it all that rabid here beyond them. Those who actually let the likes of SS get under their skin are just showing their emotional immaturity.

As in any community the group tends to have a norming effect on the behavior of it’s members so certain beliefs become truisms. Go to another forum and you’ll likely find a different set of beliefs. The Axiom forums are no exception. However, most of the time well presented arguments are usually accepted here.

OTOH AV123 in particular and to a lesser degree some of it’s offshoots demonstrate a level of fanboyism bordering on cult like. I’m hoping with the failure of AV123 even the former fanboys who have taken refuge elsewhere will keep their rhetoric toned down. Ironically some of the most rabid fanboy behavior I’ve seen recently is from the DIY crowd.

Cheers,
Just Another Axiom Fanboy (JAAF)

The difference with the Axiom forums IMO is that we don't get so upset about differing views but we get very upset when people draw the wrong conclusions about *why* they don't like Axiom products (or if they don't have them set up correctly in the first place).

I like to think of us as John Cleese's Roman centurion waggling a sword at Brian and making him write "Romans, go home" over and over until he finally reaches grammatical correctness.

Great.

Some of the threads here are certainly quite Pythonish.

That reminds me, I haven't watched A Fish Called Wanda in a very long time.

All company forums have fanboys including this one. However, you really had to witness the degree it from the AV123 camp. Nothing can compare. Referring to the AV123 following as a cult would not be a understatement IMO. There was constant reinforcement from the loyal av123 fanbase on how great the president of the company was and the philanthropy he took part in (sigh). Not just within their own circle but spread throughout the entire audio community.

What separated the AV123 following from other companies was the downplaying of individuals with complaints, undelivered products, late products, defective products, refunds, unanswered phone calls and emails etc while at the same offering that reinforcement how great the company and the people were. This is something that would not be tolerated here and elsewhere with other companies (not all).

If there was an issue elsewhere , the apologists would quickly rush in for damage control with great numbers, reinforcing the great service, products and generosity of the president. In hindsight it was all misinformation and spin control.

A credible source has stated:

On August 13, 2010, Mark L. Schifter plead guilty to two charges.

Theft (F3) - felony - theft of $15,000 or more
Charitable Fraud (F5) - felony

Sentencing will take place on October 8, 2010. Further information as it becomes available.

And of course, time actually served may wind up anywhere between 0 days and 15 years.

Take into consideration it was a plea deal, no criminal record, I'd imagine it will be more towards 0-little jail time. However, there are still ranging fines, other costs, civil suits as well as restitution to the charities. There is also this thing called the IRS that loves to look into matters such as these . Almost better off being in jail .

What are the acoustics like in a jail cell?


Wait. Fred lives in a concrete bunker, that's pretty close.....Fred?

You get "picket fencing" when trying to listen through the bars...

Answer #2:
Just ask any married man....

Daily workshops for the inmates on speaker engineering, overseas manufacturing and assembly.

An anechoic jail cell to do the testing in?

I hear the warden is an audiophile, so sure.

Have a good vacation Mark? I see you're fully rested and in top form again.

I’m not sorry to see AV123 bite the dust.
I’ve been watching that dive for awhile.

The Audioholics review of their Rocket UFW-10 sub-woofer was pretty good, and I enjoyed my pair for the 5 years they lasted. They blended very nicely with my M22’s. However, the amplifiers started having quirky problems years later and it became very clear AV123 had no interest in their past customers. When I recently replaced the amplifiers with some Dayton units, I came to understand why the amplifiers died. They really pushed those amps hard to get the tiny UFW-10’s to play down at 30Hz. I now have a very nice pair of authoritative woofers that play to about 50Hz. My M22’s do almost as well.

As a “stand-up” company, Axiom benefits from this since I’ve splurged and upgraded my whole front array with M80’s, VP180 and an EP800. I want BASS dang it! I hope to get them in a week or 2.

This industry and consumers will be better off without them. I agree. Bringing unreliable products to the market while at the same time undermining legitimate competitive advantage in a variety of ways only hurt companies selling and providing reliable, quality products and customer service. In the long run, a business run such as they were is not only bad for consumers but for legitimate, hard working companies that are trying to remain competitive or in cases with small independent companies trying to enter the market.

Just look at their sales prices. Like the old saying "if it sounds too good to be true"....the sales prices where not indicative in how legitimate companies gain cost advantages over time like through technology, advertising, specialized labor/manufacturing or economies of scale in production etc as a few examples.

Dr. Horse, you may be right about the 0 time served, but not all judges and prosecuting attorneys are lenient with audio enthusiasts. Questions raised here about the audio quality available to imprisoned audiophile/criminals remind me again of this case .

Those were good times back in 2004, John.

Yeah Peter, but Sully was never heard from again. Maybe he didn't heed the warning?

John, that story is hilarious.

Following this saga is just so f'dddd up. I looks like there was a victim with their latest vaporware which was the second generation rockets G2. So sad.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19070883#post19070883

Time to coin a new term:

Damn, you got schifted!

From following this saga from pretty much day one, every term has been coined already. There are even websites dedicated to it. Unbelievable!

http://dontschiftermebro.com/

Creative genius is such a wonderful thing.

For those who are curious and have some time on their hands here is how a typical complaint about AV123 would play out over at AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1010676&highlight=axiom

It passes the 300 post mark in about 48 hours when MLS finally steps in to quell the disturbance in the force. It got locked after 466 posts in just about 3 days.

I especially love the guy who right of the bat tells the OP that he was never charged for the subwoofer. The best part of following this whole meltdown is watching at lest some of the former fanboys eating crow.

Ironically my bookmark for AVS is actually post #361 of this thread by our very own Randy.

Humbly Bumbly,
DCA

I have seen this link posted on another forum and it is worth to post here as well. It is so fitting to what has been discussed. Read the above thread Grunt posted and compare.

http://www.whitecollarfraud.com/1583432.html


hugs...

Not sure if anyone here has anything from them and might want spare parts or to finish out a system if much is left but I just saw this posted over at AVS:

http://www.dickensheet.com/auctions/view/42

It seems AV123 manufacturing partner in Colombia was sitting on quite a bit of leftover parts (drivers, crossovers). Individuals looking for replacement parts for the x-series line and the MFW-15 this will be a good opportunity to take advantage of as well.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=84989.0

I am reading the AVS thread that grunt provided a link for, and I have to say it is a pretty amazing read. People really blast the OP even though he or she is the victim.

Glad you found it interesting. I think it’s a good example of how not to behave on the internet. I hope that when someone posts here with a problem, regardless if they are upset (people w/problems usually are), that those who respond here don’t emulate that part of the AV123 crowd. There are fanboys and bandwagon jumpers in every group who occasionally give their forums a bad name because of snarky responses to someone with a legitimate issue. Which then gets spread around to other forums because the person who got jumped on only knows that limited experience they had.

Someone should remix that viral video of that dude (and I use the term loosely) who cried while screaming "Stop picking on Brittany Spears!". Redo it to "Stop picking on AV123." At least Brittany wasn't a completely hopeless case in that she managed to scrape together a comeback. I don't really hope for an AV123 comeback but it wouldn't surprise me that someone close to the business doesn't launch a similar business under a new name.

BW456?

Hey, paging bbigwyres, do we have a website for you!

Now this is bbigwyrz type funny.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6999095/

The Excuse line and the Extortion Series, LOL!!

Watch the other ones on the page as well. Super LOL.

Funny Stuff!

I own several products from AV123, rockets, x-series, and ref-1's. All have worked well for me but I have followed the various problems people have had with subs and a few other things along the way. I can't say anything negative about quality from my personal experience, but I would have not purchased anything else from AV123 because of the various issues. For my next purchase I'll seriously look at Axiom, even more so because I'm Canadian.

What makes me sick to my stomach is that Shifter stole money from people through the charity scams. I participated in many of the charity raffles, thinking my money was going to a good cause. There was always a good story to go with the raffle, but now it saddens me to realize it was a scam. The money I was hoping would go to the victims of Katrina, orphans, or the Red Cross were actually going to pay for his Porsche. I hope the justice system deals with him in a manner fit for such a piece of scum.

Welcome Kaz,

Hope you get a chance to listen to some Axioms soon!

Thanks, I'll hover around the forums for a while to see what useful info I can pick up. I do already own QS8 surrounds which replaced towers I purchased from AV123. Towers did not work well in my room as surrounds and the QS8s got great reviews so I picked them up a few years ago. So far so good, they sound great.

Hey Kaz I think I know who you are from AV123. Welcome! I too owned a lot of AV123 gear and spent many hours on the forum...right up till the very end. Well, I didn't really participate(active posting) in the last 8 months or so because I knew it was pretty much over. What a shame.

MLS did a lot of low-ball stuff and deserves to be punished by the system.

Axiom is a good company. I owned their products several years ago.

Hey richeydog, I recall your handle from AV123 as well. I'm not ready to give my my ninja master MTM towers and center but when I am I'll certainly be looking here.

Hello Kazinvan. Welcome to the Axiom forum. Good to see you here.

Hello Ajax, I'm wandering and looking for a new home

Hopefully you will be able to read through our usual threadjacks and nonsense to call this place home like the rest of us.

Does that mean we have to tidy up to impress the new guy?

It means Mark has to wear clothes when he's posting.

Oh ya, this is the right place for me

I'll pay someone if I never have to see that picture again. But only after I never see it again.

It is a sight to behold indeedy, but it does looks like ol' Mark has lost a few pounds though. Tight work with the diet Mark!

Yeah it looks like the Subway diet has done wonders, not sure what the folks in New York are using for mass transit now though.

Now, THAT'S funny!