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#326135 - 10/20/10 12:17 AM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: jhunt17]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4077
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Static and crackling coming from the speaker are common stress signals which is noticeable to just about anyone. "Harshness" is another.
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#326136 - 10/20/10 12:47 AM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: jhunt17]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10376
JH, analogies aren't really helpful, so don't be thinking about lifting weights. When the question is instead electronic amplification, the limits of the unit in question would depend on its rated power output capability and then whether the amount of power required by speakers of the given sensitivity for the maximum sound level used by the listener would exceed the output capability of that amplifier.
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#326143 - 10/20/10 08:21 AM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: pmbuko]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4015
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Originally Posted By: pmbuko
Originally Posted By: wheelz999
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
Don't tell Pmbuko.


Never heard of that guy grin .

Yeah. I don't capitalize my screen name.


You know me well, buddy wink .
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#326212 - 10/21/10 09:24 AM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: JohnK]
wbedford Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/23/10
Posts: 74
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Bill, you've in part misinterpreted the Pioneer specs and amplifier power ratings in general. All amplifiers sold in the U.S.(and effectively, Canada as well)have to comply with FTC(Federal Trade Commission)regulations in issuing a power rating for the units. In relevant part, it's required that FTC ratings be at the full rated power for at least five continuous minutes. Both of the Pioneer units that you mention are in compliance. They meet exactly the same continuous power standard, with the VSX23 being rated at 110 watts per channel and the SC-05 140 watts per channel. The difference between 110 watts and 140 watts is 1dB of maximum output. For example, a brief split second peak in very dynamic material could be played at 105dB using 110 watts and 106dB using 140 watts. That's all.

It can also be pointed out that this isn't, as an earlier reply characterized it, merely an individual who "believes" in a "theory". It's a very basic point of audio amplifier technology that power delivered with flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion(typical of even modest units these days)results in transparent amplification without any added audible coloration to differentiate the units. Enthusiastic and sincere contrary reports are available in abundance, but the only reliable way to determine such matters is by a controlled double blind test. Such tests have failed to show the differences reported in open hearing. When the name plates and price tags disappeared, so did the differences which were previously reported.


John,

If you look at my post again, you will see that the VSX23THX specs for watts are measured for two channels only (stereo). The SC-05 power measurements are across all channels.

Hooking up 7 speakers to the VSX23THX, will not get you 110W of power per channel. You will probably end up somewhere around 65-80W per channel. Adding an external 2 or 3 channel amp to the VSX23THX to drive your mains will garner you more total output per channel.

With a SC-05, you are in a different class of amplifier that CAN generate full power across multiple channels. The benefits of an external amp with an SC-05 would not be as noticable as with a VSX23THX.

This article measured the watts per channel output of an Onkyo TX-SR706B when driving 5 speakers. The published spec of 100WPC fell to 75WPC. I would imagine it would be much lower with 2 more channels added.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/824-emotiva-upa-5.html
_________________________
SC-05, HLT6189, Oppo BDP-93, Blue Circle Audio FX2
Axiom M2v3's, QS8v3's

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#326215 - 10/21/10 09:39 AM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: wbedford]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5820
Loc: Some random location
That's a good thing to know. Right now I'm driving 4 M22's and a VP100 with the VSX23THX, using 2 channels. Whenever I have the money to do a second room with 3 M80's and 2 SQ8's then I need to get a bigger AVR for them. I'll probably go Denon though.

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#326217 - 10/21/10 09:53 AM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: CatBrat]
wbedford Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/23/10
Posts: 74
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
That's a good thing to know. Right now I'm driving 4 M22's and a VP100 with the VSX23THX, using 2 channels. Whenever I have the money to do a second room with 3 M80's and 2 SQ8's then I need to get a bigger AVR for them. I'll probably go Denon though.


CatBrat - I like Denon alot. Almost went for the Denon 3310. When HDMI and audio soundtrack technology advance making my Sc-05 redundant, I will be ditching the AV receiver and going for a dedicated multi channel amp with a separate processor. A certain US company offers a 40% rebate for future purchases of their processors when specifications change. I would love to have the Axiom
A1400-8 fed from a dedicated processor.....


Edited by wbedford (10/21/10 10:02 AM)
_________________________
SC-05, HLT6189, Oppo BDP-93, Blue Circle Audio FX2
Axiom M2v3's, QS8v3's

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#326231 - 10/21/10 12:59 PM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: jhunt17]
DreamTheater Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 92
Loc: East Haven, CT
In my tyro, neophytic opinion, after asking the same question here and to other people, is that first and foremost it is getting enough power to drive your particular speakers, period. Depending on their sensistiviy, the desired SPL in your room size. Once that is achieved, its only a question of how clean the power is, Signal to noise ratio and THD, all of which most decenet amps/receivers have so low it is unoticable (am I somewhat correct?). I believe amps do not (or shouldn't anyways) color the sound in any way. They should be absolutely transparent, just the source material amplified and sent to the speakers. I always hear things like "Marantz has that nice warm, middy sound". I believe these to be generally fallacies. Let me reiterate again, I am an amateur in every sense!
_________________________
M60, VP150, QS8, HSU VTF2-MK 3, Marantz SR8002, Oppo BDP-83SE, 50" Panasonic Plasma

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#326232 - 10/21/10 01:06 PM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: DreamTheater]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17754
Loc: NoVA
DT, that sounds about right to me. I admit, I am still very curious/confused about reports like Jay's, but what you say logically makes sense to me.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#326249 - 10/21/10 03:44 PM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: Ken.C]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Ken, I am not the only one that heard these differences in my room with the A1400, Mel also had a listen and heard that difference. My wife also heard the difference, she even said I could get an amp based on what she heard smile . I just have to pay cash for it after everything else is paid off, so basically it will never happen frown laugh

I was very surprised to hear a noticeable difference. I even had my SPL meter in hand and adjusted levels to match from 3808 alone and with the A1400. Yet at Mel's place the differences were not noticed, I have no idea what made the difference other than the rooms themselves, my smaller area vs. Mel's larger room

I want to try a few other amps to see if I can get that same sound in my new house with a vary large open area to work with.
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Jason
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#326253 - 10/21/10 04:23 PM Re: Benefits of an amp? [Re: jakewash]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
If you assume that solid state amps neither add nor detract from the signal, merely amplify the signal, then you may conclude that all solid state amps sound the same at the same output level so long as that output level does not provoke clipping or audible harmonic distortion.

In the real world, however ... that's a boat load of assumptions.

On the subject of boatloads ... I have some solid state amps - Anthem PVA 5, Kenwood KA9100, Harman Kardon PM665, Yamaha M80s (3), Integra M504. There are subtle differences. I don't know that any of these amps would differ in an A/B test (they might). I think you have to live with the amp for a while. You love some, you like others and some, well ...
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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