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#328287 - 11/12/10 08:35 PM M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311
muskyraider Offline
regular

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Hello I have recently upgraded to M80s and vp180 with 4 qs8s with a denon 4311 receiver. I have wanted to upgrade to m80s for a whhile now but my old pioneer receiver I dont think was up to handling the 4 ohm loads of the m80s. The 4 ohm issue kept me on the fence for a while because upgrading to the m80 required a new receiver or a seperate amp to power the fronts. I now have a Denon 4311 receiver that from what I have read should easily handle the 4 ohm loads of the front three. Correct me if I am wrong I should leave the receiver set to 8 ohms as there is 4 qs8s to power also. I have noticed quite a few people use seperate amps to power the 4 ohm speakers even though their receivers shold be able to handle 4 ohm loads. Can you explain you decisions? I have been looking at an Emotiva XPA-3 to power the fronts if necessary. I listen to 60% movies 40% music -15db average on receiver average size room. This brings me to the issue I had. I have been trying to find the proper location for my subs and was moving them around trying different locations doing the subwoofer crawl (Thanks Alan) At each location I would rerun Audyssey XT32. Audyssey would always set my front speakers to large so I would manually set them to small and set the crossover to 80hz. (apparently this is normal for Audyssey) the movie I was using for testing my subs is How To Train Your Dragon the scene near the end where the dragon king smashes through the cave (really great lfe) On the 3rd time of going through this process right when the dragon smashes through the cave my denon shut down with the power light flashing red. OHOH this isnt good. Pressed the power buton and the receiver would power up normally. I go to the cave scene try again same thing happens denon shuts down power light flashing red. Look in the denon manual trouble shooting. flashing red light with 2 sec interval means amp over heated. mine is flashing .5 sec interval. Manual states if flashing in .5 sec intervals is either speaker wire short or set receiver to match proper ohm rating of speaker. Im quite sure I dont have a speaker short as I have been playing with the system for a couple of days. So thinking that I should change the receiver setting to 4 ohms by what the manual is saying. But I first go into the settings of the receiver check them out and I had forgotten to change the speaker size of the fronts to small after running Audyssey. DOH! Change speaker size to small go back to dragon cave scene at same volume level -15db and everything is fine Denon does not shut down.. Played scene several times infact with no probs at all. So by having the speakers set to large the low frequencies that were supposed to be sent to the subs went to the 4 ohm fronts and that was too much for the Denon to handle causing the circuit protection to kick in. Is this assumption correct? Now I am thinking of getting a seperate amp for the fronts to be on the safe side. Is my Denon warranty in jeopardy by running 4ohm speakers and having receiver set to 8 ohms?

Thank You
Dave


BTW the combination of the Denon 4311 and Axiom speakers does sound incredible.


Edited by muskyraider (11/12/10 08:36 PM)

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#328290 - 11/12/10 09:17 PM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: muskyraider]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Quote:

Correct me if I am wrong I should leave the receiver set to 8 ohms as there is 4 qs8s to power also.

Normally you should leave it set to 8ohms. The lower setting just limits the power available to the speakers, but it does appear you are having some sort of problem.

Quote:

I have noticed quite a few people use seperate amps to power the 4 ohm speakers even though their receivers shold be able to handle 4 ohm loads. Can you explain you decisions? I have been looking at an Emotiva XPA-3 to power the fronts if necessary. I listen to 60% movies 40% music -15db average on receiver average size room.

People have varying opinions on this but Iíve found that my Onkyo 3007 can drive my 3M80s and 6QS8s w/o any problems to much higher SPLs than my ears or neighbors would tolerate. There are some who argue that more power can help but I have no experience in to judge that by.

Quote:

But I first go into the settings of the receiver check them out and I had forgotten to change the speaker size of the fronts to small after running Audyssey. DOH! Change speaker size to small go back to dragon cave scene at same volume level -15db and everything is fine Denon does not shut down.. Played scene several times infact with no probs at all. So by having the speakers set to large the low frequencies that were supposed to be sent to the subs went to the 4 ohm fronts and that was too much for the Denon to handle causing the circuit protection to kick in. Is this assumption correct?

It does sound like you are correct, however I canít imagine a Denon shutting down that quickly under those circumstances. My experience is that Onkyos shut down easier and I played my for over 2 hours on large w/o a shutdown while playing very rapid beat base heavy GOA trance music. Seems odd.

Quote:

Is my Denon warranty in jeopardy by running 4ohm speakers and having receiver set to 8 ohms?

I doubt it. But if in doubt you could always just tell them you own M60s. wink


_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#328291 - 11/12/10 09:17 PM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: muskyraider]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I think you should leave the setting to 8 ohms. It is very strange that the Denon shuts down, specially I would assume that -15dB on your receiver is loud but not THAT loud. I have the 890 (2310) and run M80s + VP180 and run them as large. A few times (when I was able to be alone in the house) I watched movies at -8/-6dB (more than loud enough) and the Denon got hot but never shut down. Mind you, I only sit 8ft from the TV. Maybe the amps on the newer Denon are not as robust as the old ones? In that case I would consider external amp.


Edited by bdpf (11/12/10 09:18 PM)
_________________________
Bruno
M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
------------------------------------
"The problem is choice..."

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#328293 - 11/12/10 09:42 PM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: bdpf]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6600
Loc: It's all about the location.
I've ran my 2809 w. M80s(but with VP150 and TWO QS8s) at 0db through Master and Commander, in fact I might have run it at +5 during "the scene" on M and C when I first hooked things up and with no problems. I haven't shut down my Denon yet with a normal listening level(on the Denon) of -15 to -10...louder than that if I'm trying to impress someone or listening to 5 channel music from upstairs.

I've got mine set on 8 ohms. Make sure you don't have a loose strand of spkr wire shorting out or similar issue.


Edited by Adrian (11/12/10 09:44 PM)
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#328295 - 11/12/10 09:48 PM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: bdpf]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Musky,

Audyssey does not set the speakers to small or large, it looks for the -3dB point for each speaker, and reports that back to the bass management for each manufacturer. Denon is now using 40hz, as the determination of making a speaker large or small.

They do recommend that if a sub is in a system, all speakers should be small.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#328299 - 11/12/10 10:12 PM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: muskyraider]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10363
Dave, you're now using the correct settings, so nothing further needs to be done(it would be a good idea to carefully do the wiring connections over, anyway). Apparently there was a problem in that particular scene with the M80s running full-range("large")at the volume you were using, so don't do it.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, the lower impedance setting simply reduces the voltage(and therefore the current and power)which the amplifier can output, but UL(Underwriters Laboratory)fire safety requirements result in the suggestion in the manual. Despite that, for best performance the lower setting should never be used, as it cuts the maximum power available roughly in half.

Your 4311 should have plenty of capacity at high but safe listening levels, and there's no good reason to be spending money on more.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#328324 - 11/13/10 12:59 AM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: JohnK]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I would like to know if the 4311 is sitting inside of a cabinet or similar closed in space as this might be causing it to run hotter on average and over heat during those extreme passages.

I wouldn't worry about the warranty as the 4311 is certified by Denon to run 4 ohm loads. I guess that new 4 ohm setting is the reason Denon now recommends the 4311 for 4 ohm loads.

As the others have mentioned leave the 4311 on the 8 ohm setting. I would recommend setting the front 3 channels to a 40 or 60 hz crossover to take full effect of the lower frequency these 3 speakers are capable of playing( I have my M80s and 3808 at 40hz) and see if the Denon still shuts down, if it does I would consider returning it and try the Onkyo equivalent that grunt has.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#328346 - 11/13/10 08:36 AM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: muskyraider]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4070
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: muskyraider
Hello I have recently upgraded to M80s and vp180 with 4 qs8s with a denon 4311 receiver. I have wanted to upgrade to m80s for a whhile now but my old pioneer receiver I dont think was up to handling the 4 ohm loads of the m80s. The 4 ohm issue kept me on the fence for a while because upgrading to the m80 required a new receiver or a seperate amp to power the fronts. I now have a Denon 4311 receiver that from what I have read should easily handle the 4 ohm loads of the front three. Correct me if I am wrong I should leave the receiver set to 8 ohms as there is 4 qs8s to power also. I have noticed quite a few people use seperate amps to power the 4 ohm speakers even though their receivers shold be able to handle 4 ohm loads. Can you explain you decisions? I have been looking at an Emotiva XPA-3 to power the fronts if necessary. I listen to 60% movies 40% music -15db average on receiver average size room. This brings me to the issue I had. I have been trying to find the proper location for my subs and was moving them around trying different locations doing the subwoofer crawl (Thanks Alan) At each location I would rerun Audyssey XT32. Audyssey would always set my front speakers to large so I would manually set them to small and set the crossover to 80hz. (apparently this is normal for Audyssey) the movie I was using for testing my subs is How To Train Your Dragon the scene near the end where the dragon king smashes through the cave (really great lfe) On the 3rd time of going through this process right when the dragon smashes through the cave my denon shut down with the power light flashing red. OHOH this isnt good. Pressed the power buton and the receiver would power up normally. I go to the cave scene try again same thing happens denon shuts down power light flashing red. Look in the denon manual trouble shooting. flashing red light with 2 sec interval means amp over heated. mine is flashing .5 sec interval. Manual states if flashing in .5 sec intervals is either speaker wire short or set receiver to match proper ohm rating of speaker. Im quite sure I dont have a speaker short as I have been playing with the system for a couple of days. So thinking that I should change the receiver setting to 4 ohms by what the manual is saying. But I first go into the settings of the receiver check them out and I had forgotten to change the speaker size of the fronts to small after running Audyssey. DOH! Change speaker size to small go back to dragon cave scene at same volume level -15db and everything is fine Denon does not shut down.. Played scene several times infact with no probs at all. So by having the speakers set to large the low frequencies that were supposed to be sent to the subs went to the 4 ohm fronts and that was too much for the Denon to handle causing the circuit protection to kick in. Is this assumption correct? Now I am thinking of getting a seperate amp for the fronts to be on the safe side. Is my Denon warranty in jeopardy by running 4ohm speakers and having receiver set to 8 ohms?

Thank You
Dave


BTW the combination of the Denon 4311 and Axiom speakers does sound incredible.


Your assumption is correct. Having the M80's (VP180?) set to large is causing the shutdown with this certain scene. Speakers that have impedance dips in the low frequencies can be problematic with receivers because it causes the power demands to be greater. In this you are running a speaker that has impedance dips between 3-4 ohms in the low(er) frequencies played full range with content in the movie How To Train Your Dragon which is VERY demanding in the low frequencies. There are waterfall plots of this movie posted over at avs and they are nasty. Your Denon is seeing this as a dangerous load and it is shutting down under those settings. Having them set to large you might only have issues with certain scenes, must of the time it will be O.K. Setting the M80's and VP180 to small with a crossover point of 80hz should solve this issue. Another receiver probably will not solve this issue either if you want to run them large however a robust external amplifier that can handle 3 and 4 ohm loads will or just a 4 ohm rated external amp for just the front 2 or 3.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#328350 - 11/13/10 09:12 AM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: jakewash]
muskyraider Offline
regular

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Thank you all for the replies. Well Ive watched a couple of movies and a few concert blurays since the Denon shutdown with no probs at all. It is in a enclosed cabinet but back is open and shelves have vented slots in them. It is warm to the touch but would not call it hot. The listening levels were on average -15db but for one of the concerts had it up to-5db for an hour or so all was fine. If I had a loose wire shorting out wouldnt I have problems still? I did visibly inspect my connections all seems in order. I have Played the Dragon cave scene again at loud levels (with speakers set to small) with no probs so only when it was on large that scene shut the Denon down. I will try setting crossovers for the fronts to 60 from 80 and see how it goes. I will hold off on getting an Emotiva for now. I had the Denon playing 5 hours straight last night no probs really enjoying the listening to the Axioms.

Dave

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#328352 - 11/13/10 10:31 AM Re: M80s and Vp180 with Denon 4311 [Re: muskyraider]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4070
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
I am confident its an impedance issue setting them to large and the Denon doesn't like that interaction when playing that particular scene. There is no signs of this being a connection/stray wire issue etc.

Is it this scene described in the link below?

http://72.9.159.100/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19366932&postcount=56
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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