Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Stereo or Surround for Music Only Room

I've recently had the opportunity to do something that I've wanted to do for years, which is to set up a music listening room. This will be in addition to our very decent home theater, and in a completely different room, so I want to optimize it for the enjoyment of music. I have very eclectic tastes, but listen to probably 75% classical and jazz, and my tastes also range from 80's alternative (like the Smiths ), to world music, Celtic, Blue grass/ country- In fact, there are few types I don't enjoy to some extent.

The room is a step down family room which measures about 21 X 29, but is the same width as the kitchen, so the actual room length is more like 50'. I have an understanding wife who will let me do just about anything in terms of acoustic treatments and speaker positioning.

My initial question is this, currently I own over 200 CD's and they are what I critically listen to at the moment. It looks to me like SACD and DVD-A are coming up, but at the moment I'm not considering exploring this option, though in several years that could change. The 'windfall' that is funding this would allow me to consider something like a pair of Von Schweikert VR 3.5's for a stereo system, or something like 4 M80Ti's and a matching Center should I decide to go the 5.1 Music route. Due to the 'once in a lifetime' nature of this situation, if I should get the Von Schweikert's, I won't be upgrading to a matched surround system any time soon, so it'd be great stereo for the foreseeable future! These are only some initial ideas for speakers, and I'm open to any suggestions.

Thus, I'm weighing in my mind the pros and cons of getting best possible stereo system I can afford, or going with less expensive, though still very good speakers for the 5.1 option.

While this is the speaker area, the electronics I'm considering are the forthcoming Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver, and the forthcoming Arcam AVR 300 which would support either option, though I'm exploring other ideas. As my home theater is also more than decent for music, I'm in no hurry and want to take my time and do my homework to get it right.

Thanks for any feedback

Sounds like an awesome project!

While I don't currently own a DVD-A/SACD player or listen to 5-channel music regularly, I can say from limited experience that I would definitely put together a multi-channel system using identical speakers. My M60s and VP-150 center are quite well timbre-matched, but I can pick out the inconsistencies across the front soundstage if I try to listen to multi-channel music critically. You just can't expect speakers of two different sizes, shapes and port configurations to sound exactly the same. I always revert back to 2-channel for music.

Since you are setting this system up for music only, you don't have to buy a special center channel to fit on top of the TV, or otherwise compromise the ideal placement of the center. Therefore, I'd definitely recommend picking up five matching speakers placed just where they should be, and a nice sub.

Just my $.02. Good luck!

I agree with badger here. If you can afford it (and it seems your 'windfall' can handle it ), then by all means get identical speakers all around. You're here at the Axiom site, so I'm going to recommend the M80s. Your room is pretty large, but they'll fill it with more sound than you can handle. (Plus, I have a feeling that 5 Von Schweikerts might break the bank.)

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. I forgot to mention that the one limitation is that the speakers will be bracketing a fireplace, hence the Center Channel thought, as I could place it on the mantel. Five identicals, and moving one in front when I want the 5 channel might be an option, though as I'm going for the best sound possible (within my budget) that seems inelegant. Also, spending some long winter nights with the fire and really great music sounds like a long step up from 'Fear Factor' et. al.

And Yeah! getting 5! Von Schweikert's isn't an option. Thus, the choice I'm mulling is two semi-exotic audiophile speakers and living with killer stereo, or 5 excellent speakers and having the 5 channel upgrade path.

The M80s are the only Axioms I'm considering for mains- I already have a nice pair of (another brand) towers and like them and towers in general a lot.

So I guess my question is, great as the M80's are, what might I gain by dropping 4-5 grand on a pair of semi-exotics, given that this is the one time that I could even contemplate such a thing, and might it be worth it? Given that it would mean stereo always in the music room. I do, of course, full surround in the HT, and thus haven't locked myself off from the surround music formats there.

What kind of towers do you have now in the HT room? That may influence some of the suggestions you get here, since as you mention there's the opportunity to listen and experiment with 5-ch and 6-ch audio options there.

Birdman

You have a point there. There's something to be said for an unadulterated stereo-only setup. With all the hype surrounding (pun-intended) 5.1 and greater setups, it's hard to resist. But stereo-only can still provide you with the most natural musical experience.

OK- I have Cambridge Soundworks Classic Towers- the original bi-polar Henry Kloss design. About six years ago, I spent an interesting day shuttling between a CSW showroom and a high end audiophile store comparing them with Paradigm Reference 80's (no longer made). Given that the CSWs were being driven from a mid-fi receiver, through a switching matrix, and in a room that wasn't acousticly treated in any way, while the Paradigms were directly connected to a highend separates stack in a room that was set up by people who really knew what they were doing, the Tower's compared rather well. In other words, they do deserve to be taken seriously, assuming one understands that bi-polars need some care in the setup.

I also have the matching CenterStage, and a pair of the Newton S300 tri-poles for left and right surrounds, as well as a pair of Newton MC200's for the center rears for 7.1, as well as a Paradigm PW2200 sub.

I just ordered the Yamaha RX V2400. My home theater is in a tough room- a loft with a solid wall on one side and a two story open drop on the other, so I think the YPAO auto eq will be a big help.


As you can see, I'm not hurting in the 'decent' music department (and why I'm not in a big hurry), and want to set up the best that I can in the Music room. Not much point,if I can't do significantly better than what I've got upstairs.

Even though I love SACD and was the one who turned Peter on to it, if I were in your position I would go for the Von Schweikerts stereo setup. I think a convincing stereo presentation is a lot easier to pull off, whereas a convincing multichannel presentation is much, much more difficult. With a few exceptions, most multichannel SACDs I've heard use surround channels for exaggerated effect rather than increasing realism, pleasing though it may be (though the exceptions do sound quite impressive). Plus the selection is rather limited and who knows how long it will take before it really catches on, if at all. Who knows, maybe by the time it does you'll have another 'windfall' that will allow the addition of more Von Schweikerts! On the plus side for SACD, you could get an SACD player now and still keep a stereo-only setup - all SACDS have a stereo layer (many are stereo only), so you could enjoy the benefits of DSD now and decide later if you'd like to create a full multichannel setup.

I say go with stereo. You've already got multichannel in your HT, and with the opportunity you have to really dedicate a room and fine tune a setup, I'm sure you could create something really special.

Thanks,

If I understand the point you're making, most of the music that I really want to critically listen to will be available only on CD for the foreseeable future. Given the costs of producing the surround audio discs, I would imagine that only albums that are expected to have mass market appeal will get 'the treatment' for quite a while. As it is about the music for me, no matter what, my serious listening will probably always be 90+% CD regardless- so why compromise that 90 for a 10 that would be a bit better.

Sound like good advice. Any suggestions for other speakers that I might wish to audition? Also, if I'm after the best possible sound for the money, would I be better served by considering a pair of reference monitors and a really tight sub over towers?

Hi EAR,

At the risk of playing the devil's advocate, first read my feature "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw," here: http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/stereo.html

Here is part of that article to bolster my position:

Big Two-Channel Flaw
"The other flaw--and it’s huge--which intrinsically limits stereo’s ability to create the sense that we’re in the same acoustic space as the musicians is that all the reverberant information contained on a stereo recording is fired back at us from two speakers at the front of the room. If you think about it for a moment, it never happens that way live in a concert hall, studio, club, or arena. Yes, sound comes from the on-stage musicians directly to our ears (and to the two stereo microphones), BUT it’s also reflected from the side walls, the ceiling and the back wall, and reaches our ears from those directions a few milliseconds later. That tells our ears and brain the size of the acoustic space, the position of the musicians within that space, and our location relative to the musicians. And it’s the directions and delays of those reflected sounds that must be preserved intact--and replayed in your listening room from the same direction. That is what convincingly recreates the illusion of the hall and space. To be fair, two stereo channels will also register those reflected sounds, but they reproduce them from the front of the room, and that’s where the stereo illusion falters."

Because your listening is going to be mainly from 2-channel stereo sources for the forseeable future, I'd suggest you consider using the Axiom Quadpolar QS8 surround speakers rather than direct radiators at the sides/rear. When you use DPLII or Logic 7 to decode many classical, jazz, and live recordings the increase in realism can be spectacular, and you are not limited in your listening position to a fixed sweet spot as you are using direct radiators.

Dry studio recordings that are pan-potted and that have little or no out of phase or reverberant information will seldom benefit from 5.1-channel decoding.

DVD-Audio will likely survive as a niche format. I'm not at all persuaded that SACD will survive, as it requires huge investment in studio gear on the part of recording studios to enable Sony's Bitstream process. At the moment, the sales of vinyl (!) far outstrip those of DVD-A and SACD combined.

I've not heard Von Schweikert speakers, but so far as I'm aware, I doubt the company has the design acumen acquired from several decades at an acoustic facility like the National Research Council in Ottawa, where the Axiom prototypes are measured and tested using rigorous blind and double-blind techniques.

Incidentally, bipolar speakers used for 2-channel stereo produce a very flattering effect but for home theater aren't advisable, as they tend to deliver a somewhat murky and less precise soundstage. Besides, bipolar speakers in the front channels are not used to mix movie soundtracks.

Regards,