Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Any 2500HD Duramax/Allison owners out there?

Just curious if any of my fellow Axiomites own one of these bad a$$ trucks. I'm thinking about upgrading my 1500 Z71 to one in the next 3-4 months.

I have many friends who own them. They are very popular in Alaska because just about everyone here hauls something around. Anything in particular you need / want to know?

I believe Adrian has one.

Oh I don't know Mike, I guess I was just curious if anyone on here had one. We will be upgrading to a 5th wheel in the next few years so I will need something different anyway. I know the 6.0 is capable, but many people on the Chevy and/or Diesel forums are saying they would never go back to a gasser based on all the benefits of the Diesel longevity/mileage/abilities.

My friends tell me the same thing. They love them. I do know that many are pissed off at all the new ones (dodge, ford, GM) because they have a slew of emissions crap on them that is creating reliability issues. I think 2007 is about as new as you can get without the new headaches. I would stay clear of Ford. I know more folks who have moved from Ford than any other brand. My sister had two of them that gave her nothing but problems. She now has a Dodge Mega-cab and so far, she likes it. But GM does have the Alison and from what I gather, that's the tranny to beat. The new Cummings paired up with the Alison would be a heck of a drive train. I have an 08 Sierra Denali with AWD. I love the truck, it has plenty of power (with the help of some bolt on's), but if I were to tow on a frequent basis, I'd swap it out for the new Sierra Denali 3/4 ton with Duromax. That truck looks pretty sweet..

Randy, I have a Z71 1-ton with the Duramax/Allison 6spd. Like yourself I went from a 5.3L Z71(2001) to this one which is a 2010 model yr(365hp/660lb ft). I'll be using it this year to pull some equip't I've got on order(about 10,000lbs) but so far I've just been using it as my driver. Compared to the old truck, obviously I've got crap loads more power, on top of which I'm getting much better mileage(highway, city not much diff). The 2011's will give you even more power and better economy over the '10s, btw. Having driven the truck for 7-8 mos, I prefer it over my gasser...actually seems quieter on the highway due to the lower rev's combined with the 6 spds and actually goes pretty quick when you want it to. Can't give you any thoughts on towing just yet, but I'm thinking this truck won't break a sweat with a few tons behind it. I've had no more than 1400-1500 lbs of stone in the back so far, not even noticeable except it settles the chassis down and rides smoother with the added weight. The 11's require urea(same w. Ford), but the 10's and earlier don't require it so take that into consideration reg fuel mileage....11s get better mileage than 10s but you also pay for the urea which evens it out somewhat.

Yep, thanks Mike and Adrian, I've been reading up on the 2011 improvements. Sounds like you get about 5,000 miles before the DEF (urea) tank empties then your computer screen tells you it is getting low. I talked to a guy on a diesel forum and he says he gets around 21 hwy and got 16 pulling his 9,000+ fifth wheel recently on a 500 mile trip. My 2000 Z71 gets about 9mpg pulling our 5,600lbs (empty weight) travel trailer, and higher teens highway pulling nothing.

The air brake on these new duramax engines sounds like it works great as well. Speaking of Ford, I know prior to 2011 they always outsourced their diesels, however, this year they developed their own engines in house. I have heard about previous year problems, only time will tell if their in-house superduty can live up to its name, so far looks good though.

Adrian, how does your Duramax start up north in the winter? What color is yours?

The guys that own the business next to ours switched from Ford '04-'05 Diesels and went to Dodge with the Cummins '06-'07 and then switched back to Ford except for a couple of them who switched to the Duramax/Allison. They had engine issues with their Fords and everything but engine issues with the Dodges, the newer Fords they bought have been trouble free so far. Our business has a couple of the problematic years Ford F-450s ('06-'07) that get the dickens worked out of and thus far they have been trouble free and also I personally have an '06 F250 with the 6.0 diesel that has been trouble free for the 92k miles I've put on it since new.

I've owned nothing but diesels since '96 (Cummins, a couple of 7.3 Powerstrokes and my current 6.0) but I'm not so sure I'd go back to another diesel ... our current gas price is $3.07 compared to $3.48 for diesel, you'll probably pay about $5k (guess) for the initial cost of the diesel engine and now they're using that urea crap for emissions. If the price of diesel gets as high as it was a couple of years back plan on spending about $150 or more for every tank full (25 gal tank), whatever the cost of that urea crap is and over $100 for oil changes.

Randy, if the price of fuel goes up like they say it is I'd probably hold off and wait to buy your truck whenever there's a shit ton of those things lined up on every street corner with for sale signs on 'em ... those guys won't be able to give 'em away then.

Randy, I haven't had any prob's starting it at all, in fact the owner's manual only suggests you use the block heater if the temps are consistantly -18C. I haven't bothered to use the block heater or use the supplied front grill cover and had no problems.

I got over 27mpg(imp) on the 400hwy(Axiom road trip!!) while I was breaking the motor in...might improve this year(fingers crossed). I will say, the diesel gets decent economy....when it's warmed up good. Short trips around town in the middle of January are not economical since the motor doesn't have time to heat up.

My truck is silver, reg cab...if you look up the Axiom party thread, there's a shot of it in the background in front of Axiom's plant.

I agree the price of fuel is important, I think Diesel normally runs about 30cents higher than 10% ethanol blend around here. I think if more people purchased diesels the price would fall.

The diesel folks have been telling me that since the engines are manufactured a lot better/heavier than gassers and designed to outlive a gas engine 2-3+ times, that maintenance cost is not really any different. They even said that oil changes aren't really that much higher and don't have to be done every 3,000 miles like gassers, so that balances out?

Resale value I've heard is way better on a diesel, which helps justify the extra cost.

I don't think the DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) costs that much, you can get it a NAPA and other places, as long as it is the correct ISO version. You can also add a gallon here and then if wanted. I think emmisions are improved by 60+ %.

Here is some info from the Florida Environmental Protection on the 70%water/urea DEF product.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/air/emission/msc/vehicles/def_factsheet_07-16-09.pdf

Oil change for my truck at Ontario GM dealers runs at about $59 vs around $35 for gas powered. The reason, or the main reason for diesel engines being built more heavily is that diesel's have higher cylinder pressures, combined with the fact they are usually used for work. In reg's to fuel economy, the biggest difference is when you are working the vehicle. Towing a heavy trailer with a gasser will probably reduce your economy by 40% vs 15-20% with the desel(those are just my own personal guestimations). If you'r working the truck a fair bit, I'd consider the diesel. Diesel was cheaper than gas around here for years but it's jumped ahead of gas right now due to high demand for diesel fuel....at least thats what the guy at DOST Petroleum told me.

I beleive they all have issues at some point so pick the one that appears to heve the least number of complaints so far and cross your fingers, knock on wood etc. Rumors are that in the very near future urea won't be required so maybe wait a year or 2 and see what comes up.

The high cost of diesel fuel is due to it being refined more (ULSD) than it was prior to '07 and not because there's not enough people driving them.

The diesel folks on forums are just that, diesel folks on forums talking about how good their trucks are. The engine *may* outlive a gasser by 2-3+ times but the rest of the truck will be ready for the junk yard by the time the typical gas engine expires and I'll never believe that the maintenance cost is equal or cheaper than a gas engine ... not in my experience anyway.

Resale value? Wait to see what the resale values are on these trucks if the fuel prices get near the $5 a gallon mark and I personally believe it's headed there.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from buying a diesel Randy, I've really enjoyed all of mine over the years but the dang things aren't cheap to buy or operate and I'm just trying to give you an opinion based on somebody who has put over 600k miles on them in the past 15 years.

I'm sure we'll see some smaller diesels of about 4.5L in pickup trucks a couple of years down the road. I understood GM had a small Duramax motor in the works before the economy tanked. Hopefully they'll continue working on it, a small diesel in a pickup truck makes a lot of sense.

That's unbelievably cheap Adrian, it cost me about $73 for four gallons of Rotella and an oil filter if I wanted to do the oil change myself. Last time I had somebody else change my oil it was $92 ... three years ago whenever the fuel prices were outrageous I paid almost $150 for an oil change.

I just received a service reminder for my truck from the dealer I purchased the truck from, $259 for an oil change, tire rotation, grease and inspection.

Those prices are crazy!

The prices are about normal for the past couple of years Adrian, Wal Mart sells Rotella for $14 per gallon. The following price for the Rotella is for a 5 gallon container so it's only $13 a gallon, my truck takes 15 quarts.

Rotella 15-40 5 gal ... $64.99

Fram Oil Filter CH9549 ... $19.09

I'll be due for an oil change in another few weeks, I'll let you know what the prices are here.

I appreciate it Rick, and I value all opinions. Most of the people I have been talking to on the Diesel forums, also have a long history with gassers prior. There are also people trying to detour me from getting a diesel for the same reasons you say.

A lot depends on how much we plan to tow down the road. I just know how my 5.3 handles our current 5,600lb trailer, and expect the 6.0 will be the same with a 8-9000lb 5th wheel, suck city up hills and gass suckage.

Another consideration is how much of a discount you can get on a given model(gas vs diesel). I'd pretty much decided on buying a Duramax 3/4 or 1 ton, late last spring, and was all set to head south of the border to get a better deal on one....had a good offer on one from an Ohio dealer. In the meantime, GM Canada started a truck promo and I was able to get $14,500 knocked off the truck I ended up with. Either gas or diesel in the HD's will work fine for you with a properly set up truck, albeit the diesel will do it with less effort for sure. Price is always a consideration, so see where the best deal is...the discount I was able to get was far more than the gasser although I still payed a premium for the diesel.

Towing is a concern, looking at the specs, with a 3.73 rearend the 6.0 is rated in the 9,000lb range. Most fifth wheels start in the 8,000+ range and up empty with nothing in them. So you would have to opt for the 4.10 rearend which would get worse mileage to get the higher towing capacity. Looks like people are getting 7-9lbs towing and up to 15-16mpg best hwy with no towing, not great.

Let me check my owner's manual(2010).

Are you looking at 4x4(most likely)....extended/reg/crew cab?

I only know two things about them :

1. When I was driving through the Colorado rockies in my Jeep trying to pass logging trucks uphill (with very little success) another guy on the trip passed me *and* the logging truck going up a steep hill, with a crew cab full of people, a bed full of toolboxes, *and* flat-towing his Jeep.

2. Unless something goes seriously wrong in my life the next vehicle purchase will be an HD2500/Duramax/Allison; I just have to save up enough money to justify buying the truck *and* something to tow with it

My (admittedly not well-informed) feeling is that there is nothing which makes diesel fuel intrinsically more expensive than gasoline once the costs of upgrading refineries for low-sulfur fuel have been amortized, and that the prices should converge rather than diverge over time.

crew cab (kids are getting bigger) standard bed, I'm with you on that John, everybody I've talked to say they don't break a sweat up hills. Chevrolet Silverado HD is the 2011 Motor Trend Truck of the Year. Watch and see who wins as the Chevy Silverado HD takes on the Ford Super Duty in an uphill race on Interstate 70 near Dillon, Colorado. The trucks are timed as they climb a 5-7% grade pulling a trailer of 19,000 pounds, and the results are impressive. This was posted soon after Ford did their own comparison of the new Ford against Dodge and Chevy on their own track using that guy in all the Ford commercials. Chevy got some unbiased editors to do this test.


Rumble in the Rockies Uphill test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T4sULsDDkI&playnext=1&list=PLBBBCE308074B12ED

Rumble in the Rockies downhill test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STEVLilrgfg&playnext=1&list=PLBBBCE308074B12ED

Does such a beast exist?

Apparently not over on the Chevy truck forums Randy has been visiting.

I am partial to GM, however, not ruling out Dodge or Ford. My Uncle is a service manager at a Ford dealership and can get me his cost. I like the looks of the Dodge's and interior, as Mike said if they would pair up the Cummins with the Allison, it would be killer. The diesel forums are not all GM based.

I don't think there's too much to choose between the Cummins or the Duramax, they're both proven motors.

The new cummins has over 800 pounds of torque. Not sure about the new isuzu. Cummins used to be the most obnoxiously loud one of the litter, but now they are almost silent.

Don't know what to tell ya Randy. I think you have a tough decision. I'm a GM guy, but I have to say that I do not like the 9000 series GM trucks. They are not put together as well as the pre 07's. You ought to just go spend some wheel time in each. Sometimes the creature comforts of each can be deal breakers / makers.

I just paid $115 for an oil change in the vette.

luckyyyyyyyyyy

800 lb/ft of torque?! Holy moses!

All I can say is that my father in law loves his F250 diesel. I think it's a 2006. Comfy truck.

The Cummins is only 650lbs ft unless there's a new vrsion released for next year that I don't know about. Duramax has 765lb ft and Ford has 800lb ft for 2011 although the GM outpulls the Ford in the real world according to third party comparo's I've seen. I've driven the Cummins, nice motor, it's just attached to the wrong vehicle imo. Never drove the Ford although I was considering it. I had a couple of concerns re the Ford....they keep releasing a new motor every couple of years claiming they're the "only ones who get it" but personally I think it' for the opposite reason...."they're still looking for it". I've owned perhaps 13-14 vehicles in my life including 5 Fords, and those 5 are at the bottom of the list for reliability. My parents and brother(F150) have owned Fords as well, and they all switched to other vehicles due to reliability issues. Nevertheless, I was willing to give the Ford a try, but my neighbour had bought an F150(2010) just months before me, and he's had his truck in four times so far for warranty work....the deal breaker though, was the spark plug fiasco on thousands of their motors. They stiffed a lot of there customers for major repairs and blamed their mechanics on top of that for a serious design flaw in the head design.

Yes... the caffein has kicked in! I'm on a roll!

2011 6.7 ltr. 350 hp / 800 trq. They say there is no need for urea and it also has the engine brake. I have not looked at the 3/4 tons, but I do like the 1/2 tons. The coil over rear suspension would be nice.

2012 dodge will have an 8 speed.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/2011/ram_2500_3500/capability/powertrain/

They must have upped the power very recently.

I change my own oil in my current Silverado, any big differences in doing it on a diesel, other than your dealing with a lot more oil, maybe cranking on the drain plug a little bit more from the rattling, etc. and the extra cost?

My first oil change was free from the dealer and I'm due for my next change in a few weeks. I recall the cost of oil changes here was $59 but it MAY have been $79....Rick got me thinking. Since my first oil change was free, I wasn't too concerned on the cost but I looked up on the GM service chart and it was obviously more than a gasser as the diesel holds 10qts vs 5-6 normally.

But isn't the intervals longer, like 5,000 miles or more?

I've always changed my oil on any vehicle I've owned about every 5-6000km(3-4000 miles roughly). I guess a lot depends on the type of driving you do...towing, stop'n'go city, hiway, dirty roads ect. For what it costs, I'd always err on the side of caution and not try to push it when it comes to oil changes. Synthetic usually gives you some extra life, but I haven't looked into synthetic oils where diesels are concerned. I tried synthetic for a while in my '01 Z71 and never really thought it made a whole lot of difference esp since I was changing every 6000km anyway.

Mike you are right about the Dodge/Cummins not using urea for their '11 trucks. The father/son duo I work for has a '10 1/2 ton and '11 3/4 ton Cummins respectively and both trucks are really nice, I haven't ridden in the father's '10 1/2 ton but it really seems to have some nice features and the styling is super nice ... the bult-in tool/cooler boxes on either side of the exterior bed (above the wheel wells) is neat as beans and is actually very usable and built for the work minded individual. I've ridden in the son's '11 Cummins 3/4 ton and my first impression is that Dodge *finally* stepped up to the plate with their styling/features, it has a boat load of power and runs extremely quiet. Time will tell whether or not the body and accessories will hold up better than their past trucks, I'm thinking it will. I'm really digging what I've seen so far with both trucks.

Whenever I had my Dodge/Cummins I absolutely loved the power of the Cummins engine but I had a lot of minor issues and whenever the transmission kicked the bucket at 162k miles I traded it off. The interior was the worst of any vehicle I've ever owned.

Ya I had a couple dodge trucks. An 03 half ton and an 05 SRT10 (for a short spell). The brakes and handling were great, but the creature comforts sucked. The new ones look much better. I really like the way they have the dual exhaust nestled into the rear bumper. All trucks with a V 8 should do that. The bed boxes are way cool.

Do you guys not find it odd that Dodge is using solid axles on their "sports cars" and indepent rear suspension on their trucks? seems azz backwards to me.

Given that I see sports cars loaded down with everything from furniture to lumber on the roof racks, and pickup trucks mostly running empty with one occupant... no

Randy should get a Civic and mount a fifth wheel on the roof!

I'd use my Malibu before buying a Civic.

Looks like I can get a coupon for a local family full automotive shop in my home town for a $49 oil/filter change, not to bad.

Trucks still have a solid axle in the rear. They just dumped leaf springs for a multi point link and coil over shock suspension. There are not that many US built muscle cars with IRS, which is too bad. I can't think of many other than the vette. I think it's just a dollar thing. Most of the exotics have IRS, or even AWD with independent suspension.

Are Dodge marketing it as "independent"?

Exotics? Hardly. Other than trucks, just about every modern vehicle on the road except for a few cheap econoboxes has an independent rear suspension. The big exception would be the Mustang, which soldiers on with a solid rear axle.

As far as "American muscle cars" go, the Camaro, the Challenger, and the Corvette all use an IRS. So if that's what's holding you back from pickup up that new SS or SRT-8, fear not!

no, they are just marketing it as a coil over suspension, from what i've read anyway. i'm not in the market for truck and will keep what i have for another couple years, so i really haven't paid much attention to them.

didn't realize the camaro or challenger had irs. i just bought a c6 / z06 vette, so i'm good, for now.

I drove the 2010 Cummins Ram Duallie and I have to say it was a nice driver, actually a surprising ride for a large HD truck. I just couldn't convince myself to buy a Dodge though.

So are you telling us you either traded your camera for the Z06 or it recently broke and no longer takes pictures Mike?

Camaro or Camera? lol

Cameras don't work in Alaska.

I haven't seen it in person yet, so I haven't taken any pictures. All I have are what the seller took. It's black, and has purdy silver wheels if that helps.

Got the oil changed/lube today, $79. They said there will be a price increase to $89 on diesel oil changes this month, however. Whilst at the dealer I had a walk around the showroom and checked out Michael's car, the black ZR1, sitting up front.

Randy, you might be intereted in this HD truck review from the National Post. The Dodge isn't the recently upgraded Cummins, it might otherwise have scored a bit higher.