Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M60 and crossover

Just wanted to know if it was ok to cross my M60's at 60mhz? I normally have it at 80 but was playing around with it at 60 and thought it sounded a bit fuller. Are they safe to cross at 60?

One other question, would my receiver, Yamaha 6080, be capable of handling the M80's?

60hz is totally ok.

Good to know! THanks

60hz is just fine, you could even try 50 if the reeiver will let you hit that odd number. I would also try 40 just to see how it sounds, then go with which ever setting you prefer.

The Yamaha(looks like the 861 is the comparative) should handle the M80s, at worst it would go into protect mode and then you would know that you need to add an amp to run them.

What's odd is when I ran the Yamaha YPAO it set the crossover at 120. After running the YPAO I only kept the distance settings (with a tweek) and nothing else. I tried it a few months with the YPAO settings and now will try a few months without.

That's very odd! Did you do the measurement with all the positions allowed by your system? Check that all the drivers are working.

Agreed. Make sure all the drivers are working, a bad one can throw off the results considerably.

At volume levels which are safe to your ears, put your ear up to each of the midrange and bass drivers with some music playing that contains some decent midbass and bass. Like the others mentioned it looks like its possible that the bass drivers are not functioning correctly (which could be caused by the crossover, faulty driver or loose wiring/connection).

Dan, since you haven't responded on the point, I'll also suggest along with the others that you check that all the bass drivers are in fact operating. The first thing would be to make sure that the connecting strips on the terminals were tight. Even if they are, if you happen to be connected to the top terminals, you might switch to the bottom ones as a test.

Hmm so am I just putting my ears to the drivers to ensure I hear sound coming from them? THat's it? I'll check right now. Be right back

Ok, I checked. Sound is coming out fine from each driver. From when I first got my receiver and speakers, it's always set the crossover at 120. I've never had it run once where it crossed it at 80.

Okay, but for example, where was the VP150 crossover set? If it's lower than that 120, it still suggests something unusual about the mains, since they should measure at least 40Hz lower than the VP150.

On my receiver I can only set the crossover for all speakers not individually. I set all speakers to small, then set the crossover to 60.

Could a driver be wired backwards?

I listened to both speakers with music and movies and to be honest I couldnt' hear a difference between the two. If I were to unscrew the drivers, do I just pop them out and simply check the wiring? I've never done anything like that before. Do the wires just plug in?

I forgot to mention when you are doing the ear test, make sure to set the speakers to large in the receivers bass management settings so the speakers play full range. If the speakers are still set to 120hz defeats the purpose of the test.

Fwiw...I only use YPAO to process and set my PEQ levels. I've run various simulations with YPAO and had different readings. I'd suggest you set the xover manually at a level your most happy and not worry about YPAO. In the future you can bypass altering any setting by simply checking them off when you rerun YPAO.
My 2 cents

Daniel, since your receiver does not allow for independent crossover settings, I would recommend using 80hz for the speakers you list in your signature.

I'm sure my speakers are fine. I think it's the YPAO. I've always had my speakers crossed at 80 but just wanted to try them out at 60 to see if there's a difference in sound.

Sirquack, is there a reason why you think I should keep it crossed at 80? I woudn't think the front or rears would really get much low frequency since they are only used in general for dialogue and rear effex.

Would you still recommend crossing at 80 when I upgrade to the M80 and QS8's?

The reason your receiver sets the crossover to 120Hz is probably due to the QS4s and in your room they probably can't output much content below that (fwi, the QS8s are rated to play down to 95Hz but in my room Audyssey detects the -3dB point being at 150Hz) and since you can't set individual crossovers, that's the setting kept by your receiver.
80Hz is usually a good starting point but I would follow Billy's advice, play with the crossover setting and leave it at what sounds the best to you. I would set it at the minimum frequency that you can hear a difference. For example if you can't hear a diff between 40 and 60, leave it at 60. If you can between 60 and 80, leave it at 60. This will prevent putting unnecessary stress on the speakers and receiver.
Also, having M80s and QS8s will not change anything regarding this crossover discussion, only having a receiver that allows for individual crossover settings will.

fwiw..YPAO set my xover @ 40hz and the mains to large. I use 80hz for the longest time and have switched to 60hz. I had a peak ~80hz and by using 60hz along with some EQing really helped tame that issue. You could make yourself crazy with all this but IMO is all about balancing and what sounds best to you...

Daniel, Bruno hit the nail on the head, since you have a universal crossover it gets set for the weakest link which are the QS's and it is not uncommon for them to have quite high crossover points based on their positions in the room and the room itself. I wouldn't hesitate to adjust that crossover down to 80hz or 60hz as long as the front sound stage sounds good, you most likely won't notice any problems with the QS's down this low either as long as you are not using the YPOA EQ settings.

I've been playing around with my system for the last few hours. I turned off the sub and setup my M60's to handle all the bass. I was listening to some Dianna Krall and to my surprise felt the speakers come more alive. I'm going to have to play around some more tomorrow. But I have to say I was surprised!

What's funny when I turn the sub on via the receiver and listen to the same cd, I noticed that the sub doesn't come on. I guess the low frequencies aren't low enough. But it did feel like some bass was missing. Just to make sure the sub was working I played some hip hop which did bring the sub on.

I'm not quite sure what's going on here. I may have to do some more playing around here.

One other question. I noticed on my receiver I can set the bass to "Both" which directs the bass to both my sub and M60's. But the crossover is still set at 60. What effect does this have? Wouldn't the M60's still be crossed at 60?

The effect is that the full range is sent to the M60s and everything below 60Hz is also sent to the subwoofer. So you end up with 3 sources of low bass. This can be very effective in evening out the low bass response in some rooms similar to having multiple subwoofers. It can also sound like crap. Very room dependent IMO.

I’m not sure of what placement options you have for your QS speakers but if you can put them in the back corners of the room, “corner load” them, it will boost their low frequency response which may sound better . . . or worse only experimenting will tell.

As billy p said it’s “all about balancing and what sounds best to you.” Also what Jakewash said that “you most likely won’t notice any problems with the QS’s down this low . . . .”

Dan, since I saw this thread still going, my curiosity finally led me to look at the 6080 manual, since I had the impression(recently I've paid much more attention to Denon and Onkyo models, primarily because of Audyssey)that on at least some Yamaha models YPAO would set each channel crossover individually, even if the manual setting had to be one frequency for all.

Checking the manual, the setting when done manually does use that frequency for "all the speakers set to "SML""(p.74), but in describing what the YPAO calibration(not room equalization)did , it states under "Speaker Size" that it: "Checks the frequency response of each speaker and sets the appropriate low-frequency crossover for each channel"(p.29). Because of that statement, the question would be what does the display actually indicate as to the different channels when YPAO sets the crossover.

If still necessary, I'd suggest manually setting a uniform 80Hz as a compromise, and not using the "Both" subwoofer setting.

When I run the YPAO and it sets the crossover, there's only one spot to check the crossover frequency. So in the speaker setup I select the front speakers and the options for None, Small, Large come up, you select one then it moves to the next set of speakers and so on. Once those are set it moves to the crossover frequency. The only option on this screen is to select a frequency. You can't select the speakers.

I don't see anywhere where you can see anything specific for the YPAO settings. If I set the crossover manually to 40 and then run the YPAO then go back to the crossover setting I can see it changed to 120. So definitely no setting that I can see for the individual channels.

There's an eq where I can select Auto PEQ or Center. AND that's about it for my receiver. Piece of crap! I wish I could have afforded a better one!

YOu know I'm starting to wonder if instead of getting M80's if I would be better off getting the QS8's and a better reciever...

Here's a photo of my place and how I have things setup. I did a panorama shot with my cell phone. It didn't come out great but you get the idea. I don't really have much space to work with. The shot of my sides was taken standing in front of my TV.



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I know with my 6190 in the auto set up menu I use skip except for the EQ when I run YPAO after I've done manual changes. I'm not sure about your receiver but you could try it and see...and I don't think we have a separate xover setting for individual speakers...just a selective one.

Btw...HGC looks very nice....

I reran the YPAO and this time paid more attention and looked at the manual as well. Once done you can view the settings it makes. I can see the frequencies for each speaker and size. Funny thing is it set my crossover to 160 and my mains to Large.

I'm not sure if I can skip any of the settings. WHen running I only see Exit which I assume cancels the entire thing.

If I change my crossover to 80 now and leave the eq settings I assume that would cause a problem because the eq is based on using the crossover of 160 for my center and rears. Or am I incorrect since the rears wouldn't use the eq all that much. Not sure how that would affect the center though.

Here's what I got for my main speakers. Have no idea what any of it really means though.
Front L
1: 63Hz--- -1dB
2: 250Hz--- -0.5dB
3: 400Hz--- -1.0dB
4: 630Hz--- +1.5db
5: 1.3kHz --- +4.0dB
Front R
1: 63H --- -6.0dB
2: 79Hz --- -1.0dB
3: 320Hz --- -1.5db
4: 500Hz --- +3.0db
5: 1.3kHz --- -3.0dB
6: 13kHz ----1.0dB
7: 16kHz --- +3.5dB

The negaive numbers shows you that the system had to drop those frequencies to try to smooth out the frequency response, so the FR of the RF M60 has a high point that required a -6db drop to bring it in line and at 500hz a 3db boost so on down the list. This is what the program is seeing in your room and it is your room/speaker placement that is causing the problem, not the speakers.

I noticed that the front L speaker had 5 items while the right has 7. What's up with that? Does that mean that no adj was needed for those items?

This is really driving me crazy! Should I change the crossover and set the mains to small and leave the eq settings? Is so will that make things worse? Arhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

I have a rug that used to go under my coffee table that was about 10ft by 6ft. I had to remove it because my dogs dug a whole into it in one corner. I'm waiting to get it fixed. I wonder how much of a dff that would make? I would think it could only help.

So just to reinterate my last question.

If the YPAO set my mains to Large and the crossover at 160 and made frequency adj to my L,R and C channels, is it ok to change the crossover to 60 or 80 and my mains to small but leave the eq freq adj or is that not a good thing?

Hey Dan,
That receiver is an American version so I can't download the manual for some reason . I wouldn't use PEQ measurments established by YPAO @ 160. That why I recommended skip if viable with your receiver.

Hehe..before you make yourself nuts replace that rug/carpet before you proceed with any changes or updates to your system. Like was mentioned eariler your room is the issue because you've created big reflection point by removing the carpet.

BTW...You could try your hand at EQing yourself(ie: GEQ if applicable) but I quickly put that idea to rest after doing some tinkering... .

I looked at the eq but dismissed doing it manually. Way to difficult! I tried running the YPAO with the eq set to "Front". It set the crossover to 120 in this case.

In regards to the frequency corrections the YPAO is doing I'm wondering if the receiver applies the crossover first then makes the corrections to the channel frequencies or does it make the frequency corrections overall to the overall sound of the speakers then applies the crossover freq based on speaker size. If it's the latter, then changing the crossover freq afterwards wouldn't have an effect.

Looking over my manual(htr6190 aka: Rvx1800) it would appear to be the former. Only after the speakers are assigned will the processor start EQing your room. I'll likely defer to someone whom is more knowledgeable with auto set and room correction application.

Hey Billy, you are correct it's the former. I just read up on it on the avsforum for the Odessy. I'm assuming YPAO works the same.

For now I ran the YPAO using the "Flat" setting. It set a crossover at 120 which I lowered to 60. Since it set my mains to Large the frequency on those should be fine. I can live with how the center and rears are...for now!

Fwiw..I used flat and I have the Q4's as surrounds too...it just sounds better over the other 2 options(that being front or natural).

Dan, there doesn't appear to be any sensible way to reconcile the quoted language(actually p.30 rather than 29)about an appropriate crossover for each channel being set, with the display showing only the highest crossover frequency, which certainly isn't "appropriate" for the mains. You might try contacting Yamaha tech support and you might be lucky enough to find one who actually knows what's going on.

John, two things
1) my manual on page 29 and 30 doesn't say anything about the crossover just tells you what Auto PEQ does. Your manual is not the same as mine.
2) The manual I have indicates that the YPAO "adjusts the level of the specified frequency bands..of each speaker" It does not say that it adjusts the crossover for each channel. Also further in it when referencing the crossover it indicates "use this feature to select the crossover frequency of ALL the speakers set to SML.." It's a single setting.

I'll have to live with what I have or will have to get a new receiver.

I vote get a new receiver, I love to spend other people's money

I just may get the M80's, QS8's and a new receiver...depending on what I can get for my M60s, QS4's and current receiver. I saw a used Denon 3808 for $750. I would love to get something like the Emotiva's but I have no place to put the amp/processor.