Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Help me understand midbass and power conditioner.

Hello,

Two separately different question but I wanted to condense it all into one post.

I have come across references to midbass reading on audio forums from time to time. I even read on here that the reason some people prefer the M80s over other axiom speakers is because they provide more midbass. What exactly is midbass, how does it sound like and what range of the audio freq. does it appear?

I did a little reading on power conditioners and have a general idea of what they're used for. I am a bit interested in something like the APC H15BLK AV 1.5kVA H. Could you all give me a better explanation of what they're used for and would you suggest having one with your home theater equipment?

Hello Seekinganswers,

I can help you with the power conditioner, as I have the exact same model.

That specific unit has a few different functions. It acts as a surge protector for all of the components (not recommended to plug a subwoofer or separate amp into it because of the possibility of an inrush). It regulates the voltage coming into the unit so that the connected electronics can't be damaged by peaks or dips in the power being supplied to them (mainly a concern with the power supplies of a TV AFAIK). And it is also supposed to help "clean" the electricity supplied to the components.

I could very well be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that's everything .

In my opinion, because of the first two features that I mentioned, I think that my power conditioner is the most important part of my setup. I would highly recommend them to anyone that's invested a lot of money into this hobby.

What I consider the midbass is the 50 to 70Hz region. The kick drum would be part of this frequency range.

Seek, you want "exactly", but definitions of mid-bass can vary. The 60-120Hz octave would be fairly representative. Some might start it at 80Hz. My M22s(when used without a sub)provide quite strong response in that range and I certainly wouldn't want more mid-bass. More isn't necessarily better.

As to power conditioners, competently designed audio equipment "conditions" the power coming out of the wall outlet by using the transformer, rectifier and filter capacitors in the power supply section. Clean DC is supplied for amplification. No further conditioning is needed and I've never used any.

Johnk,

so in your opinion, a power conditioner is just an overpriced surge protector?

That's about the extent of its possible usefulness.

I'll agree with John's answer on midbass. I will add that more often than not, issues with a given frequency range are a room problem more than a speaker problem.

The differences between the M22 M60 and M80 midbass are for the most part subtle and all three are excellent performers.

The M22s, as a bookshelf will roll off higher at the bottom end (70Hz -3db), so you will lose some midbass and bass unless you pair them with a sub.

so is midbase important if you're pairing your speakers up with a great subwoofer and crossing over at 80Hz?

Johnk,

so in your opinion, a power conditioner is just an overpriced surge protector? [/quote]



John, the unit doesn't have a legitimate function regulating the incoming power (as I mentioned above)?

Unless a "conditioner" has a large battery bank, it cannot regulate the power any better than the power supply built into the component. All it can do is limit current.

Even then, cheap battery units will use a stepped sine wave approximation, which adds harmonics to the AC. Though, the power supply in the component will filter out those harmonics there may be a buzzing sound as it does so.

I concur, power conditioners are overpriced surge suppressors.

Hi Seeking,

I agree entirely with JohnK on the subject of power "conditioners". Some are sold at outrageous prices to technically naive audiophiles by hucksters who are excellent promoters who lack any engineering credentials. There is no need for power conditioners (and the charlatans who promote them) and I've never used one.

As to mid-bass, I'd be a bit more generous with the range and set it at 50 Hz to 200 Hz. Plenty of listeners like a little boost in this range and often call it "warm" or use other descriptors. Axiom's M3 bookshelf has a pleasant lift in this range (the M22 does not), as do (historically) all of the Paradigm floorstanding and bookshelf models that I've auditioned in blind tests---too much, in my opinion. It can make male vocals somewhat fat or "chesty" sounding and other intruments like cello sound too full.

When I first joined Axiom, I did A/B comparisons with many of the Axiom speakers and other brands I had on hand from my years of audio magazine editing and reviewing speakers. The main difference between the Paradigm Studio 20 bookshelf speakers and the M22s was that lower/mid-bass boost from the Paradigms that gave singers like Harry Connick Jr. a slightly bloated sound in his lower range. Otherwise, the M22s and Studio 20s were indistinguishable.

Regards,
Alan

I live in a very bad area for electrical storms (had one last night actually) so we use a whole house surge protector as a safe measure and use basic outlet strips to hook up multiple items that happen to have surge protection built into them. However, even with a whole house protector won't save you from a direct strike so I unplug a lot of stuff if they are really, really bad storms as that is the only way to surely protect your belongings. I don't use power conditioners.

I have to unplug everything every time there is a lightning storm or a really powerful NE wind. That wind brings salt spray onto utility pole transformers down the road from me. It makes for a pleasant fireworks display as sparks fly everywhere and our lights conveniently dim in perfect sync to give us a better view.

An no I don't use a power conditioner but I'm probably a prime candidate for a full house surge protector.

Yes Murph. If anything, people should be using whole house surge protection right at the electrical panel for a line of defense. Having all computers and all other electronics on electrical strips makes for unplugging equipment a breeze during nasty storms.

Interesting. I was told by an ISF certified calibrator that he sees TV power supplies fail all the time (in rural areas especially), because the hydro isn't as consistent (peaks and dips) the further away you are from the supply.

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO! I'm the charlatan today!

I see computer power supplies fail all the time too. Some are on heavily conditioned power (like my servers at work), and some are home computers plugged straight into the wall.

Power supplies fail. If you work in a field where you see lots of things with power supplies (like an ISF calibrator with TVs) you will see a percentage of them fail. The more you come in contact with, the more you'll see dead.

I understand that, Chris. But it was the calibrator that told me that a unit that has AVR, is a good investment (specifically for the TV power supply).

And chances are the power supply won't fail in your TV. But that doesn't mean the conditioner did anything. Just like this elephant repellent I'm wearing, isn't the reason there are no elephants in my office.

I see more power supplies fail on unconditioned lines, because most people don't have conditioners. But I've also seen them fail on conditioned lines.

Yes. There is not a brick wall between the sub and mains, so both contribute to the sound around the crossover region.

Do you need the M80s? No. The M22 and a sub make for an exellent combination. I think the M22s offer the best value in the Axiom lineup. I had a little more money I could spend and I heard differences between the M80 and the M22 plus sub, so it was worth the difference for me, but M22s are excellent performers as well. Its like deciding between excellent and, um, more excellent.

If you want a good conditioner ,stay away from APC. They are junk. The Panamax 5400-PM is a good unit, protects from spikes and lightning strikes. It keeps the voltage constant so your A/V equipment will last longer,better picture and sound.

I have one and it stays on all the time,cable and telephone protection too.

Shawn, what APC model gave you so much trouble?

I saw these definitions somewhere or other --- a virtue is that, being based on octaves, they're easy to remember:

10-20 infra bass

20-40 low bass
40-80 mid bass
80-160 high bass

It's because the ceilings are too low. Don't go the elephant repellant route. I have, and it doesn't work. Plus, the outcome won't be in your favor .

Next analogy....

Oooooohhhh! Let me make one about cars!

Somewhere Ken is stabbing the air. . .

I've never heard one before .





Or shooting. Are guns legal in his state?

Too tired to stab. Sadness.

unpossible?

Depends on what he's been stabbing with this whole time?

[/quote]

Shawn, what APC model gave you so much trouble? [/quote]

Hey Cam,

Well, if you have aftermarket power cords, you can't even plug two in side by side because the spacing is too small.

I'm thinking if you have aftermarket power cords, the spacing between outlets isn't the problem.

Ha ha, you would be suprised there young fella.

The bigger problem is that you are sending dirty power caused by your dusty floor and altered signals to your equipment by not having the power cords and speaker wires lifted off the ground. Don't let the full potential of those power cords go to waste!

I guess you guys haven't tried the BBigwyres and cryo stuff, as soon as my wife and I heard them, we were amazed. I don't really give a rat's ass if you don't believe it. My M80's haven't sounded better.

Oh, anouther thing is that APC crap you can't change the power cords.

I don't doubt you heard a difference. The important part now is trying to distinguish what you heard was actually caused by the bbigwryz or that of a placebo.

/hijack

What do you folks think of whole house surge protectors?

Example

Whole house surge protection is the thing to invest in over surge protection power strips. It is your best first line of defense.

I'm trying to decide between getting the service from my local power company or buying my own device. If all things were equal it looks like buying my own device would be equal to about 2.5 years of paying the power company for the service. The power company offers some insurance with it as well (I need to verify the deductible). That and when you figure surge protectors don't have an infinite life span I'm leaning towards just getting the power company's service.

Do whatever you think is best. We had an electrician friend purchase the model he wanted and installed it. We did not have to pay for the latter.

So, you'd be paying the power company extra to do their job right?

If you're looking for your own, Smarthome.com has some very good units at excellent prices.

Ya that's were I've been looking a bit. Prices seem to range from $120ish to $250ish.

My power company charges $7/mo and includes telephone and cable. They have a $50k coverage including lightning.

Such is life

I wouldn't pay the power company, but that's me.

You wouldn't pay anyone. Tell the truth. :-P

Hey now .

Panamax has a 5,000,000$ liability against all of your components, that's a pretty good policy.

sry guys,I like argueing.

Yeah, but will they actually pay, or will there be some fine print clause that'll say the wiring was faulty, etc., because they didn't inspect it first.

Yeah, Shawn; I heard that the premium to Panamax for that policy is 27 cents per unit sold, reflecting the odds of anyone actually collecting.

That's because they are so reliable.