Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M60/QS4 or M22/QS8?

Background: I'm planning on buying a set of Axioms for a brand-new HT room (13'x23'x7'8", though the listening area is only ~13'x13') -- new HT, that is, not new room. I have a feeling that a M22ti/VP150/QS4 combination would fill the room with sound just fine, especially as this is a townhouse and I'm not going to be knocking the walls down with full-out 120 watts per channel any time soon, much less 175. But I'm looking to get the *best* sound I can for a reasonable budget, so my current target is M60ti/VP150/QS4 (plus an HSU STF-2), as so many people say the VP150 is worth the extra (and it's not *that* much extra), and the M60s -- well, it just seems like towers are, well, more appropriate -- I somehow expect a fuller sound (albeit with no justification for that). The price of the whole system is getting marginally out of hand, though (going with a $3000 projector, for one thing), so I'm going back through and seeing what I can trim. One possibility was switching the M60tis to M22tis. That's a silly question to ask, though -- it's been asked many times, and the answer seems to be more or less "well, if you have the extra money, spend it". So since I've seen many praises of the QS8 over the QS4 as well, I'll pose this question in a more interesting way: given a decent sub, would you prefer M60tis+QS4s or M22tis+QS8s? I'm not a true audiophile, but I want my music and movies to sound *good*.

My sources are 70% movies, 30% music -- I want a really immersive HT experience, but I actually care about the *sound* of the music a bit more than the movies. Not planning on doing DVD-A or SACDs any time soon, though; straight CDs as a source for music.

I've decided against the QS8s so far because one, I don't need the extra power, and two, it just seems that surrounds aren't nearly as important as mains in 98% of movie scenes, not to mention 2-channel music; especially not enough to justify spending more on surrounds than mains. OTOH, it seems that in my situation (M22s delivering sufficient power, and a sub present), the improvement of the M60s over the M22s may be marginal or even nil (though I'm a bit worried I'd regret this decision later -- and I'm hoping not to have to upgrade at all for the better part of a decade).

But again, I'll put the question more simply: M60/QS4 or M22/QS8 (given a sub either way)?

Thanks for reading this far -- and even more for any insights!

How about a third choice? Since you're trying to trim costs a little, you should consider the M22/QS4. The QS4 is now being made with the same tweeter as the QS8. Since your listening area is only 13'x13', you probably don't really need the QS8, particularly since you're trying to save some money.

The M60's need some breathing room to really sound their best. So the M22's (with a sub) will do just fine, and save you money.

Jason

Slightly off your question, but you indicated that an immersive movie experience was important to you. I just upgraded from 5.1 to 7.1 with a Yamaha VX-R2400, just got everything hookup Sunday afternoon. First thing I put in was LOTR 'Fellowship' extended version with the DTS-ES sound track, which we previous had thought to be amazingly good in the 5.1 system. The difference was remarkable, and there was a far greater feeling of being in the movie. My room is much smaller than yours, but I'm also setting up a '10 year system' and would strongly recommend 7.1 based on what I'm hearing. The Pro Logic IIx, likewise makes music sound very good.

You've well phrased the issues. While M22s are very good, in general M60s are well worth the upgrade. However your room is somewhat small. You have a great sub the STF-2. M22+STF-2 works very well (I used to have those). Re QS4 vs QS8, I haven't heard the QS4. But most of the sound in both movies and music comes from the center and mains, so in theory QS4s would be OK, especially for a smallish room.

Note the VP150 is fairly large and weighs 17lbs. Make your measurements carefully. If TV mounted, verify your TV will support the weight and size.

The system you first stated will sound very good. If you ever move to a larger place maybe consider M60s then. Just my opinion.

I would get the M60's for mains. The reason being that it is nice to have the option of listening to stereo music with two full range speakers without the sub. Also - since you have a projector screen and don't need a speaker designed to sit on top of a tv, you may be able to save some money by using a single M22ti or M3ti as a center channel.

> Also - since you have a projector screen and don't need a
> speaker designed to sit on top of a tv, you may be able to
> save some money by using a single M22ti or M3ti as a
> center channel.

This is a good point; I didn't realize the bookshelf speakers could be split up. There wouldn't be room for a vertical center above (there's only 12" between screen and ceiling), but may well be below (27" below). The appearance would be slightly out-of-the-ordinary, but not a big deal I suppose. Would using a bookshelf rather than a center provide a better sound in your opinion, or just a better value?

-spc

> You've well phrased the issues.

Thanks :-)

> Note the VP150 is fairly large and weighs 17lbs. Make your
> measurements carefully. If TV mounted, verify your
> TV will support the weight and size.

I'll have a projector and screen in this room, so that won't be a problem -- but on the other hand, I have to decide whether to wall mount it or put it on a stand (or could I just put it on the floor, given that the room is carpeted?), so that'll still be a consideration for mounting. For that matter, I'd still have to decide whether to put the M22s on stands (if I choose those over M60s) or wall mount them; I'm assuming that the FMBs will allow enough clearance from the wall to not detract from the sound...

> The system you first stated will sound very good. If you
> ever move to a larger place maybe consider M60s
> then. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the input!

-spc

> I'm also setting up a '10 year system' and would strongly
> recommend 7.1

Stop that! You're supposed to be helping me trim costs, not increase them! ;-)

The right side of my brain actually keeps whispering about a 7.1 system, but each time the left side sticks its finger in its ear and loudly declares "I'm not listening, lalala" (my left brain isn't terribly mature on occasion). So for now, I'm vaguely planning to leave this as a future upgrade if neccessary (since it's one of those few upgrades that wouldn't obviate the need for anything I'll be buying now). Actually, I too am probably going with a Yamaha RX-V1400 receiver w/ DPL IIx, so that'll leave me room to consider augmenting the system with another pair of speakers in the future.

-spc

I had my VP150 on a carpeted floor for a while, tilted upward toward the listening area. It sounded great that way. It's now mounted above my HDTV with full metal bracket, and it sounds no better. Re using a bookshelf speaker like an M3ti for the center, I think that would work fine also. Re M60s, if your listening is truly heavily biased toward HT, the M22/sub config is probably fine.

That said I also agree with the previous poster about M60 and stereo listening. If it turns out you listen to more more music and less HT than you envisioned, M60s would get the nod there. In any event if you have the space M60s are better. Just don't crowd yourself -- block out the floor space carefully and maybe make a cardboard mockup of the M60 to best envision the size. In theory they don't take much more floor space than M22s on stands, but in actuality they feel bigger.

Either configuration will give you really great sound. You'll be limited more by source material quality than speaker/amp issues at that point.

> How about a third choice? Since you're trying to trim
> costs a little, you should consider the M22/QS4.

Somehow I didn't expect people to reply that I should get the more modest versions of both.

> The M60's need some breathing room to really sound their
> best. So the M22's (with a sub) will do just fine, and save
> you money.

That's becoming more of a possibility by the minute; two out of three so far suggest the M22s's sound will be just as good as the M60 in my space. Thanks for lending your thoughts!

-spc

> I would get the M60's for mains. The reason being that it
> is nice to have the option of listening to stereo music with
> two full range speakers without the sub.

I'm wondering if this is a personal thing, that some people find the sound of a sub playing a large part in music to be offensive or annoying (like some people see rainbows in DLP displays and others don't), a preference thing (like some preferring a brighter brand of speakers and others a warmer brand), or a value thing (it sounds the same to everyone, some people just think the minor imperfection is more important than others do). A subtle distinction, I suppose; it made more sense before I wrote it.

-spc

> I had my VP150 on a carpeted floor for a while, tilted
> upward toward the listening area. It sounded great that way.

Very good to hear; I'll go with that setup for the center, then.

> In any event if you have the space M60s are better. Just don't
> crowd yourself -- block out the floor space carefully
> and maybe make a cardboard mockup of the M60 to best envision
> the size.

This is something that's actually been worrying me a bit. I think I'll be fine technically, but it's tight -- I'll have about 14-16" of clearence between the edge of the screen and the right wall (or an open entrange/hallway on the left), and there'll likely also be the far wing of a sectional couch pressing in towards the front of the right main (although this depends a lot on the size couch I get and how far back from the screen I can place it). Perhaps I should do a mockup as you suggest to get a better idea.

> Either configuration will give you really great sound.
> You'll be limited more by source material quality than speaker/amp
> issues at that point.

Yeah, I'm probably quite overthinking this ;-) Setting up an entire system from scratch -- my first real HT system, to boot -- can be a daunting task. I have a feeling that once it's all assembled, all these niggling details worrying at me now will blend into the background.

-spc

In reply to:

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I'm wondering if this is a personal thing, that some people find the sound of a sub playing a large part in music to be offensive or annoying

---

scier,
It is definitely a preference. Some ppl like the extra oomph from a sub or do not mind the large driver playing a higher frequency range.
I abhor it and use my sub only for frequencies below the general dropoff for my M60s which is around 45-50Hz effectively.

The reason I suggested M60's for stereo listening is sometimes I find listening to stereo music with a sub distracting. A subwoofer is usually placed in the corner or on the side of a room. You are not supposed to be able to tell where the low frequencies are coming from - but this is not always the case. I can tell the bass is not coming from the center of the soundstage - so I like to listen to music just with two full range speakers. This may just be me or my set-up.

I did not notice the size of your listening area was 13x13. Three m22's across the front may be the best choice. That would really be a seamless soundstage. As far as the center channel goes, I would look for a stand that will elevate the speaker as high as you can get it without getting in front of the screen. Ideally, you want all of the tweeters to be at the same height across the front. Of couse this is hard to do - you just try to get it as close as you can.

I can't tell you what the M60's are like but the M22s and QS8's I have with a cheap sub sound great, especially with movies. The sub gives you that extra oomph needed. My room dimensions are 12x16 not too far off from yours so I think it would sound similar in your room. You get used to music with a sub and I have heard better subs than mine and the bass seems less directional with them.

I'm in the same boat as Jakewash. I have m22s and QS8s with a cheap sub and am very happy (sure I’d like a better sub but something had to be cut in the budget... for now). Whether it's stereo or HT I’m extremely impressed with what I could afford and managed to put together (pats himself on the back). That said, it is possible that I do not have a 'golden' ear and am just inexperienced in this realm.

jr

You'll be shocked when you get a new sub. It makes a really big difference. In both music and movies. Start saving those pennies!

Yeah the QS4's are good...

Personally I fill my room with M60's/VP150/QS4's and a SVS PB2-ISD, and my reciever is 120wpc at 8 Ohmns and 160wpc at 6 Ohmns (my VP150 loves it).

And my M60's are bi-amped at 240wpc

Yay...I'm such a nerd.