Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners VP 100 match well with M60's?

Hey Folks:

I'm new here and pretty excited about it! As such, this is my first post.

In the very near future I plan on buying a pair of M50's or M60's as Fronts to a 5.1 Home Theater system. I’m not an audiophile by any means -- especially financially speaking. However, I think I’m one in training, minus the finances! I’m certainly a HUGE fan of listening to good “sounding” music and very much enjoy watching enveloping movies on both an audio and visual level. So maybe audiophile is the wrong word – how about audiophan or audiofan?

Anyway, I’ve written to and received back valuable information regarding these two models from Alan Lofft and I appreciated his help big-time. He also told me to poke around the forums because you folks are “very knowledgeable” as well. After having read many posts, I can see why Alan said as much.

With that said, I was wondering if I could be so bold to ask a question regarding speaker matching – knowing full well that I haven’t contributed anything to these boards yet. In my defense, I did a search for this using the Search tab and nothing came up, so maybe either I didn’t concatenate the strings VP100 & M60 correctly (probably) or maybe no one has asked (doubtful). Here goes: if I do go with the M60’s can I use the VP100 as a Center, or will it be a bad match sonically? (I don’t have all my audiophan “terms of art” down so sonically may be a poor choice of words, but perhaps you know what I mean, anyway). I was leaning towards the M50’s originally and Alan was pretty objective about each model but I’ve been reading such good things about the 60’s that this is getting to be a more difficult decision than I first understood it to be. I don’t want buyer’s remorse either way. If the VP100’s and M60’s are a bad match, what about the VP100 and M50’s? I did the HT wizard and the resulting query landed with that combo.

Well, thank you very much for reading this and any advice/information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, as is customary…my system currently consists of an Onkyo TX SR606 A/V receiver; a pair of Polk TSi100’s as Fronts, an entry level Sony Sub, Center and Surrounds. The surrounds and receiver are going to my brother as soon as decide on the M50 or 60’s to go with the VP100. The receiver is going to be replaced in the very near future with a Pioneer VSX-52 (or VSX1121-K) and the Polk’s will replace the Surrounds.

Long term plans will be to match the Sub and Surrounds!

First of all, and most important, the search function for these forums is abysmal.

Secondly, Hockey Life is a really huge store with tons of selection. I quite like spending time there glazing around.

Third, quite simply, all the Axioms speakers will match so closely that you wouldn't notice anything abnormal with their centre channels or main speakers (regardless of so much other hype people type about comb filtering, etc. etc.).
However, that being said, there is a pretty distinct difference between the M50s and M60s.
The extra (dedicated) midrange driver really does add a ton more detail IMO. The M50s are a bit smaller (and hence less expensive) and what some people refer to as "more laid back". The sound is a bit more recessed, a bit less detailed.

A few years ago a few friends got together to buy the M40s (small brother to the M50s now discontinued) and i had a chance to pair them against the M60s.
You can read my thoughts in this post.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/98061/The_M40s_vs_M60s

Gee i hadn't realized but i called Peter an insensitive cod in that post.

Too funny!
You're not a cod Peter but certainly a halibut fellow.
Did i say halibut?
I meant hell of a.

Oh mercy, keep the puns coming today!

An M3 would make a better center for the M50's the way I understand it. They are somewhat sonically matched.

The best center for the M60's would be the VP160. Second best would be VP150. Third best VP100.

It all depends on how much you want to spend and what you have the room for.

You can also just skip the center and go with the M60's for now, then add a better center later when you can afford it. You're AVR will provide a phantom center, so you won't be missing any dialog.

These are the kind of statements that confuse people looking for information (and frankly have me scratching my head).
How is this statement quantified?
By the fact that these centres are ordered from largest to smallest and therefore must be most best to least best?
Cost highest to lowest therefore must be most best to least best?

I've tried the M2, VP100, VP150 and VP160 as centers, and I stand pat on what I've said. It all boils down to how much you want to spend as to sonic quality.

The VP100 will work find and sound good. The VP150 will work find and sound a littler better. The VP160 will be the perfect match.

I find this rather coincidental that your impression of sonic quality increases with price and model size.

Oh right, that bias thing again.

Try an A/B instantaneous switch the next time you set this up. It will help remove that bias.
I've done this with the VP100 and 150. I challenge anyone to try and hear the difference between those two in a complete 5.1 setup.
Subtle is not even close to describing how minor the differences are.

Welcome, Hockey. You've started a fight on your first post!

I don't have much to contribute beyond saying "welcome" and asking how big is your room / how loud do you listen / what type of media are you planning on enjoying?

The reason I can't contribute much is that I've only heard the VP150 and I have the VP160 on my "next purchase" list. It's designed to be the best match to the M60s.

It's a little large, though (necessarily) and not an inexpensive Center if you're on a tight budget. And, frankly, if you watch Chick Flicks more often than action movies, the difference between a VP100 and a VP160 may not matter as much to you as it does others.

If you have the room for a VP160, but not the budget...skip it for now and set your receiver to a "phantom center" as mentioned above. You can add it later.

Another option that many here prefer is using a traditional (i.e., vertical) speaker for a center channel, but many can't fit that option. And, personally, I would probably lean towards an M22 for a match with the M60s... and that's the largest "traditional" bookshelf speaker to place.

Have I helped yet?

Chesseroo could be right about the difference between the VP100 and VP150, but I found that the VP150 played a little lower, but ever so slightly in the frequency range, and a little louder. That's from my experience, whether biased or not. I can only report what I perceived. After listening to the VP150, I wouldn't want to go back to the VP100. To me, at least, that says something.

Welcome to the forums, HockeyLifer.

I've been enjoying M60's and a VP100 in my large, open living room for about 8 years now. They are wonderful speakers, and you need not be concerned about them "matching".

Sometimes, people get fixated on "what is the absolute best". There seems to be some consensus that (everything else being equal) a vertical center channel speaker has "better" horizontal dispersion than a horizontal speaker. i.e. that an M22 sounds "better" than a VP100. That being said, not many of us can stomach the aesthetic of a vertical center channel.

The VP100 is a fine speaker. You'll likely be thrilled with it. Don't let people easily upsell you. My opinion is that you are FAR better off improving your subwoofer and surrounds than on upgrading the center channel.

I suppose I'd like to know why the original poster seems set on the VP100. Space constraints?

I've tested my 100 with M22's, Onwall M22's, and even my M80's, and it held its own, sounded very good.

I can't comment on 50s but I have two sets of M60s. One pair is in a stereo setup in a room that has no TV, so music only. The second is in a full 5.1 setup with a VP150 center.

I am extremely happy with both setups. In the music only, stereo setup, the sounstage is excellent and I don't feel at all like I am missing a center speaker.

However what i will add, is that in a 5.1 it is nice to be able to bump up the center channel a db or two to help bring dialog to the forefront. A lot of movies are mixed in such a way that the dialog can be hard to hear compared to all the other noises. Being able to adjust this subtly can bring a BIG improvement to your listening enjoyment. Nobody likes to strain to hear dialog or having to keep the remote in hand to keep playing with the volume as it switches from loud special effects to dialog.

If movies will be a big part of it's usage, I would suggest getting whatever matching center you can afford. You can always upgrade later. If music, I wouldn't sweat it. Marks advice on a 'phantom center' will work well unless you are concerned about the people not sitting in the sweetspot. And who cares about those guys, right????

Drunken Irish guy makes a good point.

One difference that I forgot to mention is with the VP100, I preferred to listen to music in Stereo. With the VP150, I preferred to listen to music in 3.1 with the center playing.

It could also be that with a 5.1 or a 7.1 setup differences in centers appear much smaller than with a 3.1 setup. Dealing with 3.1, the center channel differences are very noticeable, at least in my room with my setup.

If I were just now picking the 3 fronts for my theater, if the room wasn't huge, I'd take a look at the M22s and the VP160. It is real close in price to the M60s and the VP100.

Welcome hockeylifer,
I started off with the M60's, added a VP100, then finished off the 5.1 system with an EP350 and QS8's.
As Tom stated, the VP100 works fine in this system. I would love to upgrade to a VP160 however at this point I would have to replace my t.v. stand to fit this monster
Cheers,
Shaun

I haven't heard any of the centers but this is what I would do. I would get the M60s and the VP 160 and be done with it. You will just want them sooner than later if you start off lower on the line. If that is a little out of budget then start with the 60s and then add the center later.

For several years I used the M60 / VP100 combination. With a little tweaking (like bumping up the center volume a bit), they were a very satisfying match. If budget is an issue, It may not be worth the cost difference to move up to the VP150. I recently upgraded to the VP160, and there is a very significant improvement over the 100.

I'd suggest going with the VP100 and saving the difference to upgrade your surrounds.

I have a VP100+M80s. It does the job, but if I had the space and the WAF, I'd go for something bigger. Sorry, Chess.

Either that, or a VP100v3.

I had M60's+VP150 for about 5 or so years..... i ALWAYS though that the 150 was to small of a speaker for the 60's.... i feel that i was right.. When the vp180 came out, i was one of the first group of people to get one.. There is a pretty long thread about the vp180... So.... With that being said, i think the vp100/M60 combo for movies and the such... No Bueno, you will have nice full speakers on the L/R and this little thing trying to do 70% of the dialog durring a movie!... i would say that the M50 VP100 would be a better matched combo due to the abilities of the speakers involved... Or an M50/vp150 setup...


Personally, with the M60's i would not want to go any smaller than the VP160..


With all of that being said, i have had my M60's/vp150 combo in many different "housing" situations, from apartments to houses (in a great room setup) to 10'X10' barracks rooms (Navy).... and the 150 ALWAYS seemed like the weak link even in a 100sq room!!!....


I will preface my post to having absolutely no regard for the cost of any of the products mentioned, only sonic matching in my opinion.

You can't preface at the end! Ha ha. But I know what you mean.

why not... i just did :P

I was going to say something about how it's just not done in polite society, but then I remembered where we are.

yeah.. i like to keep my writing light hearted here... i do enough academic writing as it is, where things like that actually matter....... so it is fun to break the rules... anyhow, if i would have actually started with a preface, would you have read what i took the time to craft???

Dear Folks:

When I made this post I figured I'd come back in a few days and maybe get a response or two...WOW! Didn't realize I was going to get so many responses and good ones at that!! Thank you for the warm, warm welcome and the opinions!! Muchas Gracias!! (For the record, my intention was not to start a fight or get community members to refer to each other (once again!?!) as fish! ;O) -- so my apologies.)

Speaking of Cheeseroo, thank you sir, it's great to hear that Axioms match so closely I wouldn't be able to notice anything abnormal when choosing the VP100 (which I have) with the M60's (will soon). I wonder if that has anything to do with--according to every review I've read, and really Axiom's opus moderandi -- the goal of producing speakers that are as transparent as possible? Perhaps if their goal was to color the speakers one way or another, matching between different lines/tiers would be more of a challenge?

By the way, my listening room is an average-sized living room (12x12 w/ 8ft ceiling) for my area (Arlington, VA - 2 minutes outside Washington, DC). Actually, it's smaller than that right now but we will be moving to a slightly larger home in the near future and that is the size. (Same neighborhood)

I could have mentioned that we don't listen to music or movies too loud (between -25 and -18dbc, if that makes sense?). Perhaps when my wife and three year old son are away--she's from Costa Rica, so they go there a few times each year while I work my arse off to pay for it ;O) )--I will be cranking it up a bit more. I guess as they say, when the cats are away the (audiophan) mice will play!

Also, to answer some of your questions regarding why I don't go for the VP150 or larger, it just comes down to finances for a while. I think price/value is a major reason I was turned on to Axiom in the first place. A friend swears by them; I head them at his house; and a few years later (now) I'm purchasing them for myself and family. I've been "dreaming" about it for a while. The decision comes down to M50's or M60's and I'm really leaning towards the later now. No, I'm going with them.

Murph, from PEI -- you didn't happen to go to college in Maine around the late 80's - early 90's, did you? I knew a real good guy whose last name was Murphy, but whom we called "Murph." I thought he was from Saint John, NB, but he may have been from PEI (great mussels -- the food from PEI, not Murph's arms, by the way). Just thought I'd ask. He was a druken Irish guy too but we all were back then because it was college. Well, some of us were drunken French guys too.

Rock Head..."I started off with the M60's, added a VP100, then finished off the 5.1 system with an EP350 and QS8's." That sentence pretty much sums up my goals! Were you happy with the results?

With Dakkon...I appreciate what you're saying, and as I mentioned in my original post, I don't want buyers remorse, but I think I'm sold on the M60's with the VP100. If after a year or so I need to get a bigger center channel rather than opt for smaller towers (M50's), I will write to you and say...I should have listened to you at the 'preface' wherever you may have out it. :O)

Finally, I listen to all sorts of music as I'm a recovering drummer. I guess the "all sorts" pretty much describes everyone's listening tastes these days but I mean it in a general way. Sure, I'm not into country or hip hop, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge either genres. All genres have good music and less than good in my opinion. I'm getting older so I just don't have time to listen to "less than" anymore, no matter the style.

Thank you once again. I like it here.

P.S. I promise not to be so verbose on all my posts.

If it's really just about finances and not space, I'd recommend a single M22 as a center vs. a VP100. I'm using one (between M80 mains) and find it very satisfying. I switched from a VP150. The single M22 will be slightly cheaper than a VP100, too, unless you were getting the VP100 some other way than new from Axiom.

+1 to what Charles said. If you can fit the vertical center I think it's a win win situation. You'll be cheaper out the door and have a 'better' center channel speaker. I started with a VP150 and ended up switching to an M2 for my center duties. No matter what you decide however, good luck and we'll be interested to hear your impressions once you set them up.

Cheers,

I would even say go with a single M2 if the tall M22 won't fit, there isn't much difference between the VP100 and M2 from a FR point of view but you get a wider dispersion pattern for better off axis listening.

Guys, I think he already has a VP100. And there are lots of people who just don't fancy the aesthetic of a vertical center. And if they think it looks fugly, that's going to compromise the listening and ownership experience.

Yes, I am happy with the results. I could have spent more money but at the time it probably would have been overkill. I am planning on M80's at some point down the road

I have the VP100 and M60s and I am very happy with the results. They are a good match. I would recommend the M60 over the M50 just because you already have a VP100 and the M50 has a slight tonal difference due to the 6.5 being used for the midrange instead of the 5.25 driver. I was space constrained in my cabinet so I went with the VP100 and I love it. For TV viewing, the m60s have sufficient bass in my room and I leave the sub turned off so I don't wake the kids. With the m60s set to large, and the VP100 crossed over at 100 hz, the bass from the center is routed to the mains and they perform very nicely.

I bought a new house and am planning on keeping the m60 vp100 combo in the theater, and building out the family room with a new set of in cabinet m60s and a vp160. You will really enjoy your setup. The differences these guys talk about are pretty subtle with the only major difference being the vastly better bass response of the VP160 vs the VP100. Properly setup bass management will make that extension difference fade. Tonally they are quite similar. It's much more important how you setup your system than the small differences in the speakers.