Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M80's

Okay now that I have stirred the pot over Surrounds and now Subs time to move onto the fronts.
Was really looking at the Klipsch RF-7ii's mostly for those 2 10" woofers in each box.
But want to hear from others that have the M80's on how well the do on BASS for music either in 2 channel or 5.1 settings.
Also what did you replace when you got the M80's, cause that says alot about the speaker as well depending on the brand you had before Axiom.

Thanks for any responses.
Rustolem

me= 2 channel for music and movies, no sub

Previous speakers: Jean Marie Reynaud Trentes. I am hiding them now in a climate controlled storage unit because I told my wife I sold them.

I have all the bass I need for music. I have 95% of the bass I need for movies. I turned off my LFE from being mixed into the Front L/R speakers. For most movies the 80's could handle the LFE, but I had a scary experience with the pod emerging from the ground in WOW with my amp turned up extremely loud.

Until my amp went into circuit protection it was absolutely incredible what those speakers were doing. I don't blame the 80s one bit. Action movies with sound design like that need a sub.

I replaced my M50s with my M80s. Before that, it was Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble 1, so not exactly anything to write home about. But the cabinet volume of the M80+the 2 6.5" woofers makes for pretty darn good bass. That said, I always use my sub, since I like a lot of bass.

My previous speakers were diamonds, fir coats, european cars and augmented C cups, followed by a financially uplifting divorce that allowed me the freedom to buy whatever I wanted.... Speakers and electronics were purchase #1.

The M80's do have some great base, but I wouldn't run without a sub. There's no comparison worth mentioning. And that's for both music and movies. Anyone who says differently most likely never had a good sub.

I have recently moved from M80ti's, to M60v3's in my HT. I don't miss the M80's (but I also run two EP500's in this room). They may not play as 'loud', but in all honesty, I couldn't ever pin the volume with the M80's, and I can't pin the volume with the M60's....so I have no way to know just how loud each are. They both are above my threshold of pain. Reference level is loud enough.

I have a set of Wharfedale Opus 2-2's in a room where the M80's were playing. I've said it before, will say it again, they are different, but neither are better than the other. I use an EP600 in this room to augment the lower end.

The M80s are a full range speaker and will play all but the lowest of pipe organ notes. I replaced my M22s with M80s but before I went this route I tried out various other full range speakers, Paradigm Studio 100's, Monitor Audio Gold series, Focal Chorus series to name a few comparators and in my opinion the M80s held their own against these other fine speakers. In the end it came down to the $1300 the M80s cost at the time. If I could justify the cost of some of the others I may have gone with one of them instead but it is hard to pass up on such a great sound for dollars spent.

Like the others I too run my M80s with my sub but I have my XO set for 40hz, the M80s are playing most of my music and the sub only sees the extreme low end when required, in my room and for my ears I like this set up the best.

Well all of my music listening will be either internet radio, mp3's or some dvd/bluray music discs.
But the music I enjoy will have alot of deep base that I want to be able to "feel".

So most of you have your M80's set to small?
And bass was why I was considering the Klipsch R7-ii's with their 2 10" subs in each cabinet.

Rust,
there are some in the industry who wish the terms large and small were never used with identifying bass management.

Rust, small and large doesn't really have to do with the physical size of the speaker. It is more about setting the proper crossover to blend with your sub. If you have a sub in the mix, you normally want to set all speakers to small, and adjust the crossover for each speaker accordingly.

What sort of music?

I am kind of thinking the deep bass you are talking about is actually not that deep but higher up on the scale, far too many people think the sub is the issue when in fact it is the mains and they are sitting in a null.

Yeah have kinda been learning that, the thing for me was that when I had them set to large the sounded different than when on small and that was do the fact I didn't really know about crossover settings.
But now I understand that to get my sub to work with my fronts when listening to 2 channel mode for music that I need them set to small, but just wasn't ever sure about the what crossover settings to put it on.

If I do decide to order Axiom, which will be this week, I will be become a nuisance on here with even more questions!!

jason, I hear you. I have found some tracks on youtube, if you search for subwoofer tests, there are lots of low frequency stuff that will really test the sub.

As a nuisance owner of M80's - let the questions begin. The more I play with the settings on my AVR, the more I love my M80's. For music, I now prefer to set them to "large" (a bit of an oxymoron - at least before the LFR1100's) because the bass is much more balanced than with a sub. But for movies - bring on the sub!

Just FYI Rusty,

My M80's are set to small with crossover @40hz. This is for movies and all channel music listening.

Lately I have just been listening to music in 2 channel mode pure audio (no sub, no audyssey) and the M80's produce nice clean, accurate bass.

Dana

I know this isn't "exactly" on topic, but i have my M60's set to large and full range.. when i listen to stereo, i usually use the stereo+subwoofer setting.... Don't see why the M80's wouldn't sound great as well?

I'll agree with Jakewash, the M80s will handle all but things like pipe organ or the lowest of double basoon notes.

I have flipped back and forth with all sorts of music and could not tell the difference between the M80 full range or the M80 crossed at 80Hz with a sub. It is only with my pipe organ disc that I noticed a difference.

Rusty, as Jason and Fred have pointed out, unless you're talking about a few primarily classical discs, particularly pipe organ, the bass on the music recordings that you'll be listening to isn't really "deep". Most music has little or nothing below about 40Hz. The M80s handle this with ease.

It's usually advantagous to have separate sub(s) vs a tower with built-in's, this will give you the greatest flexibility with sub placement which would not be possible if they're part of your mains.

My Integra DTR 9.9 does not have large or small settings for the speakers. It just has many crossover settings to choose from. Paired with my EP500 sub I seem to prefer to set my crossovers on the M80's at around 45 HZ. This seems to give me the smoothest bass in my setting.

Not sure what music you guys are listening to, but I have the crossover set to 40 on my two channel set up. When I have it cranked, I can actually SEE the EP600's driver moving from across the room on many tracks. This is primarily when I am listening to Alternative Rock.

Don't forget that 40hz crossover isn't a brick wall, the sub will be feed from about 55hz down until somwhere just below 40 none of the signal is sent to the mains.

Even if using an Outlaw ICBM? I have no idea, just asking cause the ICBM is getting analogue from the pre amp.

I don't know for sure, I am unfamiliar with the ICBM, but I believe it would be hard to blend mains and sub if the crossover was a brick wall.

Ya, I never really thought about it like that, but I agree with your reasoning. Heck, I just turn this stuff on and tweak it a little here and there.... And it either sounds good to me or it doesn't. I have too many other hobbies to get too far into the details and theory of audio.

The ICBM has to where you can pick between a 24DB or 36DB slope.

Yeah, Mike; the ICBM has a standard 2nd order 12dB/octave slope which you're likely using(there's an optional 36dB/octave setting for certain subs). Typical HT receivers use a 24dB/octave slope for the sub.

So, the point Jason mentions is valid: there's nothing unusual in the sub cone movement you observed with some music at very high listening levels. You're getting significant sub output to at least 70Hz with the 40Hz crossover. Some of the instruments used in alternative rock have their lowest fundamental around 40Hz; for example, a double bass(or the electric bass guitar usually used in rock groups)has its lowest fundamental at 41.2Hz. Kick drums are another example with outputs around 40-70Hz. At high levels those frequencies certainly move sub cones, and explain your observation.

Incidentally, if you want to hear how "musical" the lowest bass notes alone played by the sub are(not),keep the settings the same(or even select the 36dB/octave slope)and disconnect the speaker wires so that the sub alone is playing during these bass-heavy tracks.

It is a 12db then? It's been quite a while since I had one.

Yes.

What does "slope" mean? I've familiar with the term, but never took the time to learn what it means. And what's 2nd order? Can you either explain or point me somewhere that will describe this, audio for dummies style?

Mike, the slope refers to how "severe" the crossover's cutoff is, measured in decibels per octave. A 6dB/octave crossover reduces a signal more gradually than a 12dB/octave crossover -- which is twice as steep. This page has a graph that should make it clear:

http://www.bcae1.com/xovrslop.htm

Ohhhhh....I get it now. Thanks!

Hey Rusty!

I see you ordered m80's, vp180 and the q's! Congrats man, you will love them!

I had an Outlaw ICBM because my DVD Audio and SACD did not give me any bass management for individual channels when using the analog outputs. It worked perfectly.

Mike, the page that Peter linked demonstrates the meaning of "slope" well and a later page on that site here shows the different "orders" of audio filters. The number of the order refers to how many basic components are used to form the filter. A first order low pass filter(scroll down to the low pass section)can use simply one inductor(but Gene might be outraged)connected in series which rolls off the high frequencies at 6dB/octave before the woofer. The second order filter adds a capacitor connected in parallel with the woofer(so the two components, an inductor and a capacitor, make it second order)to roll off the high frequencies at 12dB/octave. The parallel connected capacitor has less opposition to the high frequencies than the woofer voice coil, so it "drains off" some some of the high frequencies, increasing the treble roll-off slope. Similarly, the third and fourth order filters shown increase the slope to 18dB/octave and 24dB/octave.


That site has a quite a bit of good audio info with nice graphics. I recall that a few years ago here we used the "Too Little Power" discussion at p.29 of the directory here to help explain "clipping" and calm some of the exaggerated concern on the point.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that John. Much appreciated.