Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Denon 3803 - speaker level calibration, Avia, etc.

I just received the rest of my system yesterday - Denon 3803, QS8s, VP-150 to go along with my M60s. It was like Christmas! Also, a couple of weeks ago I picked up the Avia DVD and watched it about all the way through. Once I decided on the Denon I started reading a downloaded copy of the 3803 manual, so I felt reasonably confident in setting up the system. After finally getting my hands on everything and getting all connected, I went through all the setups including the speaker levels using the trusty Radio Shack analog sound meter. My question is this: for setting speaker levels, what the hell do I need the Avia DVD for? Just to verify what I’ve done with the receiver test tones? I only had a limited time last night to play with my new toys. I shoulda stayed home today. From what I could see, with the Denon the only way to set speaker levels is to select either auto or manual test tones and go ahead and make your settings with the test tones blaring away. What do I do with the Avia DVD, switch it in and do a quick compare with sound levels? What do they got, beautiful more melodic test tones? I’ll be ready for more tweaking tonight. Gotta get that remote programmed. I’ve got a fine selection of remotes on the coffee table (TV, DVD, VCR, cable, RCVR). I think they’re mating when I’m not looking.

As a side note, the first DVD I popped in was Lord of the Rings. The sound was great of course, a whole new experience from 2-channel stereo, and the picture looked fine at first, but it’s all dark and sort of monochromatic, then all of a sudden there’s Frodo. I know he’s a hobbit but is he supposed to be green? And I don’t remember Gandalf being so blue in the face. The Shire was looking pretty funky. Turns out the cable gremlins had pulled out my red component video cable from the DVD. Doh!

I believe that the Avia disk is very similar to the Sound and Vision disk I used with my Denon. My Denon set up was the same as yours, I could only do it with the built in test tones, but it was helpful with the phase. I found that my sub integrated much better with the phase set at 180. Where the disk was very helpful, was in calibrating the TV. It made it very easy and there was a definite improvement.

Chopster,

Using the AVIA disk will insure that your Denon will be set up to a standard level due to the test tones included on the disk. It has been noted that the test tones generated by any number of receivers may not be correct. The test tones on the AVIA disk are a standard tone that will help insure that the entire path from the source (DVD player) to the speakers is correct. You basically turn off the test tones from the reciever and play the DVD using its tones through your speakers. Then set your reciever to have all the speakers match volumes manually. Set the reference level you want (most use left front as the reference beginning since it comes first on the disk) and modify all the other speaker settings to match that level (dependant on how hot you like the sub...of course...separate setting), you will have your settings correct. Reference level from the AVIA disk is 85dB but most times that is TOO loud...you can use 75 or even 70dB as your reference as long as all speakers are eventually set to the same level setting.

Works just fine with my Sony and has all along...the test tones my Sony creates are wrong...

Hope this helps,

WhatFurrer

To add a little glue to the two posts, the Avia tones are designed to include the sub, so you are not required to do anything additional with it.

Maybe someone else with a Denon 3803 could weigh in on this matter. Like Tinfoilhat said, there seems to be no way to turn off the receiver tones. The only way to get to the speaker level adjustment menu is to play the receiver tones in auto or manual mode. Turning them off or using an external source is not a selectable option. As I do my tweaking I suppose I can do a pass through the Avia menu for verification purposes and for the phasing. I've already done some video setup adjustments with the Avia. I don't see that as a super powerful tool since I wasn't that out of whack with my untrained eye settings.

I have a 3803. I'm not sure where you are with this, but the Denon test tones were not on or off when I used Avia. The Avia disk is played in the DVD Player and uses the DVD audio output, hence the Avia test tones came through the speakers, not the 3803 test tones.

I'm also not sure why you are reticent to use Avia (unless it is the expense of the disk, which I understand). I'd suggest you get over to the AVS Forum and do a search on Avia if you feel the need for being convinced. I did my calibration with the 3803 test tones and then with Avia. The end result with Avia was better sounding and included a better blending with the sub. To my ears.

I frankly don't remember the specific details of the Avia research I did, but conclusion was compelling enough for me to get an Avia disk. I do know that the net/summary of the info was that the Avia disk just does a better job in providing audio that is balanced. Given what you have spent on equipment, I would think that the small additional chase to make it all work together as well as possible would be worthwhile.

Unless I overlooked it, on my receiver it was impossible to adjust the volume levels for the individual channels without using the built in test tones.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Tinfoilhat is receiving my transmissions. I have the Avia DVD, and sure I can watch it and listen to the tones, but the actual receiver speaker level setup is only accessible with receiver tones being played. Unless I'm missing something...

Hi Chopster,

There has to be a way for you to tweak the individual channel levels while you are watching a DVD and without going to a menu. I don't have a Denon, but there should be a "Channel Level" or some such button on the remote (like there is on my H/K) that will super the channel and a +/-dB indicator at the bottom of the TV screen. Then you just hit the Up/Down indicator to raise or lower each channel level. That way, you can play back the Avia disc and use its test tones. It should be easier to use those and get a good subwoofer main speaker blend.

Regards,

so wouldn't you be able to use the test tones on the Avia disc and then play the tones on the Denon? You could ignore the Denon test tones and set speaker levels based on the results from the Avia test before.

Am I missing something here?

Hi Allan. I'm using the 1802 so there is no onscreen programming (bummer) but the only time I can adjust the individual channel volumes is during the playing of the built in test tones.

Of course you're right Alan and of course I was missing something, I think I found the description near the back of the manual (I'm reading my receiver manual when I should be working). I only had a couple of hours last night to play around and I was looking but not seeing, trying to go go go. I was doing it all with the on-screen menu but the separate section on doing things with remote only spells it out. I'll give the Avia a try tonight. I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.

Dave, as Alan points out, there has to be a way to adjust speaker levels independently of the built-in test tones. In your case, look at p.55 of your manual, where it describes making further level adjustments "to suit your taste". The various set-up discs available have additional features for audio and/or video adjustments beyond speaker level, but the receiver test-tones are fine for the level setting. Whether they use a specified level(e.g. 85dB)doesn't really matter; all speakers will be set to whatever level the tones are at, when done carefully. The overall volume can of course be then either raised or lowered.

Edit: you may have just found that yourself.

Any help for me John, or am I hooped? Now I must say that I calibrated using the built in tones and then checked them against my disk and they were very good.

I am also missing something here. 80db is 80db whether it comes from the Avia or my AVM20. What difference does it make what I use to calibrate the speakers as long as they are calibrated with the SPL? Step in here Alan and help me. gthomas

I have found that with my Onkyo receiver, my SPL meter reads differently when I play back tones from a calibration DVD vs. the built-in tones -- and that's without adjusting the master volume. In other words, the levels do not match up when I measure the SPL of a DVD test tone against the level of the built-in test tone.

I'd rather calibrate from the source, since it's the DVD player is what's going to be playing all my movies.

Tin, you're never hooped, there's always salvation. In your case a study of p.30 of your manual will reveal the truth.

Gene, this may be getting tangled-up, but if we're on the same page, you're right; it doesn't make any real difference whether calibration is at 70, 80, 90dB or whatever, as long as it's done accurately(it's just a suggestion to use e.g., 85dB on Avia so that the level at calibration happens to match the level of the original production, but this isn't crucial). It also doesn't matter whether the source of the test tones is the receiver or a setup disc.

Peter? If the receiver test-tone level is different from the disc level, of course the meter will read differently; or isn't that what you're referring to.

JohnK,

The +/- db settings for each channel are not the same when I calibrate with the DVD vs. the built-in. For example, let's say the levels for my L,C,R,SR,SL,SUB are +2,+3,+3,+2,+2,+4 when I calibrate with the DVD and +1,+2,+1,+3,+3,+2 when I calibrate with the built-in tones.

Peter, I see that in fact you weren't referring to the base levels of the receiver tones as compared to the disc tones. If this is the same over a number of trials and isn't simply measurement error between one receiver tone try vs one disc tone try, then it's curious. The adjustments to the various speakers should be essentially the same, regardless of the source of the test tones.

Unless the receiver's built in tones are inaccurate.

If the receivers built in tone measures 80db how could it be inaccurate compared to 80db with the avia? I understand that the two different sources might be different volumes, but if the are the same relative to themselves what difference does it make? Example: you weigh youself everyday at home and it is 150lbs. At the Dr. office it is 155 lbs every time. One of the scales is off, but it dosen't make any difference as long as you pick which scale is your reference. Does this make any sense?
gthomas

Thanks John. Don't know how I missed that.

If the receiver cannot reliably generate an 80 db tone, is what I mean. Oh. I see your point. Hrm. OK, on to someone smarter.

Here's another one. My H/K doesn't generate test tones for the sub. Does the Denon?

Yes, the Denon 3803 generates SW tones. And to continue this discussion, let's see if anyone is still paying attention to this thread. I've been trying to do some calibration with my brand new out of the box Denon 3803 and I've noticed a couple of things. With the speaker levels all set to 0 db, doing the calibration with the receiver tones is very straightforward, leaving the front left at 0 db reference and adjusting the others using the receiver controls. If I put in the Avia DVD and just listen to the test tones, the fronts and center are pretty equal, but the surrounds are BLASTING. If I reset the receiver levels to zero and use the Avia, I'm finding I have to turn down the surrounds to -12 db (maxed) and they're still noticibly louder than the others. I've got all the receiver setup parameters correct (all speakers=small, delay distances, etc.) so I'm not sure what's going on. But I also haven't even had the time to just sit and watch a movie all the way through, so I don't even know yet what is good or bad. All I know is that I'm tired of hearing 85 db static.

Wow, this is really getting more complex than it needs to be.

85 db is what Avia suggests because that level pretty much cancels out any ambient noise that might adversely affect the settings. The level you choose is not the issue - the point is that the speakers are all set at the same level.

Set the left front at 0, then calibrate the rest by tweaking the individual speaker adjustments.

Just for giggles, sit down and try it once rather than sit here and wring your hands. It really is pretty easy. If you aren't comfortable with or convinced that Avia is the answer, then use the receiver test tones. How far off can it be, really?

Hi,

Sorry, I had to abandon this thread to deal with emails. But it's the relative level of each channel that matters. You can choose an overall volume level that's comfortable and delivers sufficient SPL to activate the SPL meter and override any ambient noise (like a waste-disposal dumpster truck passing by my street-level apt.).

It's hard for me to believe that there is a software error on the AVia disc (in terms of differences in the pink-noise levels for different channels (worse things have happened!) but I suppose it's conceivable. The same software with modifications was used for the Sound&Vision Tune-Up DVD and David Ranada prepared it. He's such a stickler for accuracy that I'm certain he would have spotted errors long ago if they existed.

As to the test-tone generator in A/V receivers, there shouldn't be any variation. The circuit is simply moving a mono pink-noise signal from channel to channel. Any gain differences present between the on-board amplifiers (and there might be some) could be compensated for in your final adjustments.

Regards,

I have just skimmed through the replies here, so I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but the easiet way to adjust the individual channel levels on the 3803 is to set the remote in "amp" mode, then press the circular enter button (in the middle of the 4 arrows). It will then give you a one line OSD showing first, the level of the front Left speaker. You can then use the left arrow on the remote to lower the channel volume down to -12db or the right arrow to raise the volume up to +12db. Once you get the first level set, push the enter button and you will move on to the next speaker, and so on. Once you play with it it is self explanatory. The only 3 buttons to be concerned with are the enter button and the left and right arrows. Once you are done, within a few seconds the display will disappear just like the master volume display.

Keep in mind that there will be no test tones associated with the adjustments doing it this way, it will just adjust whatever is currently playing. I use it mostly to tweak the center and sub levels when watching different programs.

First do the calibration with the test tones and make note of your reference levles and go from there. I hope this helps and I am not explaining what you guys already know. Thanks