Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Audio Only System Renewal

Looking for some advice as I'm contemplating replacing my vintage AX2s / Velodyne F1000 system with something more modern. As far as sound is concerned, my present setup has been awesome in my large living/dining room; however, it looks dated, too large & out of place with the mostly wooden decor.

My present system can be seen here:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/home-theater-pictures/?album=1&gallery=139

My new 'audio only' system will be driven solely by my Denon SACD player through a 65 watt/channel Yaqin MC-100B Tube Amp using 'high level inputs' into the sub. This amp provides more than adequate volume levels in my listening area with my present vintage speakers.

After much research, I've narrowed my choice down to a pair of M2v3s (perhaps on FMS 24 stands) & an EP-400, all in one of the high end finishes. - high gloss rosewood or white. This will be a minimalist, classy looking system that should fit better visually into our living space & sound fine as well.

The room is 3900 cu feet with my listening seat being 8' from the sub & 10' from the satellites. The alcove containing the 3 speakers is 12' across & 2.5' deep with the bulk of the open room space being behind the listening area. Using the sub gain level of 4/10 on my 80 watt RMS F1000, its 10" servo controlled driver easily fills my listening area with quality, distortion free bass down to 20 Hz or so. The only output levels that I could find is from Velodyne literature: 20-85 Hz +/- 3db & less than 1% distortion at 25 Hz @104 Db. These were known as very low distortion subs.

Question is, in the near-field, will the EP-400 perform similarly & adequately for music only in my listening area? I'm looking for quality low end musical performance with no requirement to fill our large room with huge sound. As I am now an old phart, excessively loud music is a thing of the past for me now, ha!! Quality over quantity I always say...

Any thoughts?

TAM

Is there a reason other than aesthetic to replace the sub?

I've not heard the M2's, but own M60's and have heard the rest of the classic lineup. I think there is consensus that the M22's are "better" than the M2's, even at low volumes. For that space - especially if you are willing to spring for the upgraded finish - I think that M22's on nice stands would be really great.

I'd get those first and see how strongly you feel about replacing the sub.

I've not heard the EP400. Suggest a call to Axiom with your questions.

Tom, you have a lovely home, and I really enjoy your participation in the forum. Especially since you are always getting and ENJOYING new stuff!

My first reaction is that the M2s might not be enough speaker for your listening area and seating distance. Any reason not to step up a bit to M3s (still small & discrete) or M22s? I realize this isn't your question, and I can't comment on the EP-400, just curiosity.

My family room which is for movies as well as stereo listening is 2400cu/ft and i couldn't imagine using M2's in that size of a room.

However, i have a speaker similar to the M2's (same size of drivers, but different brand) in my bedroom with an 8" sub. My bedroom is about 800cu/ft, and in that room of that size of those speaker sounds wonderful...

If i was in your situation, personally i would go with a setup similar to JohnK's.. M22's with a pair of EP500's, or a horizontal ep600/800... Put the M22's on stands, and then go from there..

Is there a budget in mind? If there is somewhat of a budget in mind the 600/800 idea may not be feasible.

tom: Thanks for your comments & kind words. My Velo is over 20 years old & has to be on its last legs. I have occasional 'Gain Control' issues that is common to the 'F Series' when they reach their senior years - it's just a matter of time before it becomes a door stop. I have a pair of M22s downstairs in my HT & really like them in that setting; however, with the high end finish, the M22s are $170 more than the M2s which is stretching it a bit.

Joe: I already have two M3s hidden away in this room in my separate ambiance system as described here in my other thread 'Auction Win - M3v3s'. They are more than able to fill the 3900 cu ft with moderate levels of quality sound. My reasoning for considering the M2s is that the M2s' SPLs are rated at only 3 Db lower than the M22s, 2 Db less than the M3s & surprisingly 1 Db more than my present AX2s. Therefore, I didn't think that the M2s would suffer here at the moderate levels that I enjoy now.

dak: I wanted to get away from the large form factor of the bigger subs & satellites in this setting. If I was to go with 2 larger subs such as the EP-350s/500s, I'd probably use them as stands for the M22s as I have done downstairs in my HT. Cost for the finishes on all of the bigger speakers also becomes a factor.

The EP-400 to me is a really nice compromise for size with accurate, fine performance. It is even smaller than my 14" cube F1000. I don't think that my wife would entertain the thought of a bigger wooden box sitting in the alcove. With the M3s newly installed in this room's corners, I'm really pushing it!

Cost is certainly a factor & I have to get this done prior to my wife retiring next year, ha!! When high end finishes are factored in, the M2s + EP-400 combo is by far the most cost effective solution due to the smaller area of the veneers requiring finishing.

Thanks all for your thoughts & insight. I eagerly await any more words of wisdom from the fine folks here...

TAM

HAve you tried the M3s in the proposed position? Maybe you could get another pair and not need a sub?

Tom, both listening distance and room size are factors, but in home situations the listening distance is far more significant. Research by Dr. Toole and others shows that in typical rooms the sound level drops off about 3dB per doubling of distance. Although the M22s are probably more similar to the AX2s in maximum output capability, the M2s with the sub handling up to 80 or 100Hz should provide you with great sound at a comfortably loud level at your 8-10' listening distance.

Despite the common use of the term, rooms aren't "filled" with sound at a uniformly high level. Your use of "near-field" indicates that you appreciate this and will be satisfied with what you actually hear where you're sitting.

No, but perhaps I should have tried them there before I mounted them on my frankenstands.

With all of the auditioning of floor-standing speakers that I've done in the last year at our local stores including Tannoys, Focals, Klipsch, etc, etc, not one of them demonstrated the dynamic & pleasing low end like my old Velodyne does. They all lacked the fullness that I'm used to. While I'm extremely impressed with the M3s & my AX2s, understandably they can't reach down to the depths of pipe organs, etc.

I'm not a bass monster but I have found that a good sub when set up correctly & used with moderation really is beneficial in a music system, especially with bookshelf speakers. Therefore, I consider a good sub to be essential in this setup.

Furthermore, I really like the appearance of a satellite/sub system. I remember years ago when they first appeared in the market place how cool & classy they looked as contrasted to the fat, boxy floor-standers at that time. I'm seeking that look now in a high grade finish. I guess that I'm buying furniture as well as a sound system, ha!

Thanks for your input...

TAM

I agree about a sub. I just don't have any. I have two, 2 channel systems. Someday when I have extra dollars or can get a really good deal, I will be adding them.

[quote=exlabdriver]I listened to Cameron Carpenter 'Revolutionary' SACD on my Tube-Amp, AX2s & Velodyne 10" sub. Very impressive.[/qute]

I ordered this CD earlier today. However, i though that i would bring this quote into this thread.. John has recommended a couple pipe organ CD's that i have also bought... In my 2400cu/ft room i have a pair of EP-600's, i think that is about right as far as output is concerned for size of room comparable to mine. This is why i recommended the dual sub idea.. When i got my second 600, noticed a considerable improvement in the low end..


In my room, i would say i listen to stereo about 70% of the time.

Good luck with your decision..

When I auditioned at Axiom, I was quite impressed with the output of the EP400. I think it will be fine in that room. The M22 is a great little speaker. My only quibble was that there was not enought bass. A sub will take care of that.

So YOU'RE the one! I had it in my basket with "one in stock" and saw that they're now out of stock!

GOTA YA!!!




Gotta be quicker Mark...

use the "buy now with 1 click", that's pretty much the only way i buy off of amazon, it's just Sooo easy....

No, no, no. . . .that makes it TOO easy!!

Sometimes the act of me having to log in to get to my cart curbs some of the impulsiveness.

Mark: You should order the SACD - it's much better, ha! Check out my remarks wrt to watching the accompanying DVD in the 'Stunning Recordings' thread.

John K: Thank you. You have largely confirmed my thinking on this matter.

Just a reminder to all that I am not trying to reproduce movie LFE here. If I sit in my normal listening spots on the couch 8 to 10 feet in front of the speakers that are firing out of the alcove, I can't imagine that this diminutive 500 watt monster couldn't satisfactorily produce enough SPL at the moderate levels that I desire. It would be a different story if I was standing 25' away at the back of this room.

I am reasonably convinced that a pair of M2s on stands coupled with an EP-400 will perform admirably in this setting; however, I am still open to more dialogue if anyone sees fit to jump in...

Thanks again

TAM

fredk: Was that an M22 or M2 that you referred to above?

TAM

ola exlabdriver!

I've had M2s and M22s, both excellent speakers. M22s hands down.

I prefer bookshelf speakers with sub to towers for 2 channel music listening. You might want to check out the Wharfedale, Focal and KEFs. I've heard Wharfes which compare very favorably to m22s when teamed with a SET tube amp. The best sounding tube bookshelf sub combo I ever heard include a pair of Reference 3a speakers. They're on my bucket list of audio equipment.

I'd get that Velodyne to a furniture maker/repair and have it refinished. You could make it beautiful.
Good luck

Tam,


I was thinking about this earlier... Why not order M2's and a EP400 that you are thinking you want.. However, order these items in a stock finish, if you decide you like them, then return the stock finish speakers and place an order for the custom finish you want. This way you will know that YOU like the setup before paying the premium for the custom finish which can not be returned and not having the ability to try something else if you decide you want to.


With this option, you could order a pair of M2's as well as M22's, then decide which YOU like the most.. Also, if you find the EP-400 is sufficient for what you want great. However, if you decide you want something a bit bigger you would have that option.



All of the above would cost you some shipping $$. But, you would know exactly what your getting and positive that it IS what YOU want.


Anyhow, that's all i got.

2x6: Thanks for the suggestions; however, my F1000 has over 20 years of use on its electronics, servo & the driver foam surround. Velodyne is not able to service the 'F Series' as parts are no longer available. While I believe this rather low powered (80 watt) sub is outstanding for music in my setting, this unit is most likely near the end of its life - I'm surprised that it has lasted this long. I don't think that sinking any money into it would be wise. As for other speaker brands, I think that I'll stick with Axiom as I have for over 20 years. I just plain like them!

dak: I have a pair of M22s downstairs in my HT that I could bring up to use as a test bed if I got my hands on an EP-400; however, I wouldn't want to have Axiom sell me a set of 3 speakers just for testing purposes knowing that I definitely will return them. That's just me I guess.

Everything that I've read all over the net is that M2s (& M22s) are best with a sub. On the other hand, M3s are fine by themselves for most music; however, being a bookshelf they cannot be expected to provide the lower end that I desire in this setting - hence the requirement for a sub.

The main question remains - will the EP-400 be powerful enough for moderate near-field listening in my setting? I have to believe that it will...

TAM

My instinct is it would not be enough for me in that size of a room. But, your last question is a completely subjective one.. Which, as you know can be hard to answer...

dak: I appreciate you continuing comments.

I have a feeling that with dual EP-600s in your awesome system that you prefer to listen to music at quite a higher level than I do - or at least you have the capability to do so. I'd sure like to have your setup in my HT!

I'm really after a minimalist, high quality system that looks elegant in my living room...

TAM

Actually, i don't really listen that loud.. With the dual 600's the room "fills" even at low volume...

I listen at about 1/2 of reference level, if that is any gauge of what volume i prefer. Granted, sometimes i do listen a bit louder.


Maybe, get an EP400 in a stock finish, it could be the black oak which is similar to your current sub.. Then you would still have the return/upgrade/addition option...? You could listen with the M22's with the 400 and decide if you want another pair or if you think you would be happy with M2's.

i think "moderate near-field listening" does not have much to do with room size, specially when the room is large.
so, my instinct says it could be more than enough.
near-field means less power demands.

near-field listening in a large room means you have more direct sound than reflected sound. how much more depends on the ratio between room acoustics/size relative to the distance from the front speakers to your ears.

it would be a good thing if you specify what this means:"I listen at about 1/2 of reference level"
is it -10 or -6 or -3 dB?

I would order the 400 in the finish you want. That way you can see exactly how it looks in your room. I felt the same way about trying something in a non stock finish, but I was assured by the Axiom Mothership that it would be no problem to send it back.

J.B:

Unfortunately I do not have an SPL Meter to give you a good answer on the levels that I'm using.

I realize that the following will not be of much value but here goes:

My 65 watt tube amp's volume knob is Minimum at 7 o'clock & Maximum around to 5 o'clock. I run it between 10 & 11 o'clock depending on the source material which is about 30 to 40% of max. For instance, today I played Spiro Gyra 'Good to Go-Go' SACD starting at 11 o'clock but had to get up & turn it down to 10. Throughout this SACD that is recorded at high levels, there were many passages where the kick drum gently jiggled my couch from 8' away.

With that SACD at the 11 o'clock setting, normal conversation in the listening area would be most difficult. At 10 o'clock conversation would require elevated voices but not to the yelling stage.

Roughly comparing it to my Denon in my HT, I would guess that I'm running the tube amp at -15 Db or so.

Maybe I should get myself one of those SPL doodads.

TAM

I have hesitations about Axiom subs. Of course, that doesn't mean they're not great.

I like Velodynes, I have a couple. There are a few subs out there I'd like to try:

Epik subs
Rythmik subs

Anyone here ever hear any of these?

2x6:

I luv my vintage F1000. It has given me great service & enjoyment over 2 decades. I bought it new for $1200 in 1992 which was a lot of money in those days. The Optimum 10 is the equivalent model today & is quite pricey with not much in the way of custom finishes.

Unfortunately Velodyne has gone mostly ID which makes them a PITA for us in Canada with cost & shipping. Only their lower end subs are available at places like Future Shop up here. In fact FS has the EQ-Max 10 incher on sale this week for $400 ($400 off) - which is a great deal - even less than the US price the last time that I checked. This sub is a newer version of the DLS-3750 that I have in my HT (I have 2) with an on board room EQ feature. I like mine as they perform well, make great stands for my M22s & they were great value for $300 apiece on clearance last year. You can get them in any colour as long as it is black.

I have no reservation in choosing an Axiom sub, especially for music...

TAM

Yeah, Tom; relative volume control settings are very little indication of loudness levels. Amplifiers have fixed gain, but different units have different designed gains. Also, some volume controls "open up" more quickly than others and let in more voltage to be subjected to the fixed gain at a lower setting. An amplifier that reaches the same loudness level at a lower setting than another may actually have less maximum power capability.

So yes, it's a good idea to have an SPL meter such as the Radio Shack digital model to see how loud you're actually listening and at least an approximation(from speaker sensitivity and listening distance)of the power being used.

My local 'The Source' (ex Radio Shack) has the 'SCOSCHE PORTABLE SOUND LEVEL DB METER' for $50.

Is it an OK product?

TAM

the R.S. spl meters are very popular;
if you want to check relative spl's (level diff. between different speakers), then it's good;

but if you want precision readings, then you have to pay more for a precise instrument that will give you true spl's.

modern AVR's are quite good in setting equal loudness on surround systems.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "more precise instrument", JB. I don't think that measuring SPL in db is particularly esoteric technology anymore.

Tom, if you have an iPhone or an Android device, you might be able to find a (free) app that does basically the same thing. I mean, we're not trying to launch the space shuttle here, or anything.

I'm not familiar with the Scosche. Mine is an old RS analog type. I suspect the chip in all those devices is probably the same. Looks like our Canadian brothers tend to have to pay more for this (among other things) than we do south of the border.

if you measure the output of 1 speaker and the meter says it's 75 dBSPL, and you check a second speaker and the meter reads 73 dBSPL, then when you increase the gain for the second speaker to the same reading as the first one, then they both will truly output the same SPL. This is what a low cost meter can do well: repeatability.

this does not mean that the reading on the meter is "really" 75 dBSPL though, but it can vary from one meter to another, and also the readings can vary according to the frequency that's measured.
This is called manufacturing tolerances.

most of the time, the auto calibration on an AVR is more precise than what a low cost meter can show.
the low cost meter will be able to bring all speakers to the same level, but will not necessarily show a true/exact meter reading: it will not tell you whether your SPL is, for example, 74 or 75 dBSPL, and there are additional errors when one changes frequencies, as those meters don't have a flat frequency response, so a sound measuring 75 dBSPL at 1 kHz will not give the same reading at other frequencies, specially for big chunks at the ends of the spectrum.

if you were to check a signal - with a low cost meter - of a specific strength at 1 kHz and then at 32 Hz, your meter would show very different readings; with a precision meter, the difference between the two would be minimal, as the tolerances are much tighter.

in short, with a low cost meter, all speakers can be adjusted to the same SPL, but you don't know what the true SPL reading is;
with a precision meter, an added benefit is that the display will give you a more precise, truer SPL reading, and this, over a much larger chunk of frequencies.

a few words more...
if you just want to have a good - but not necessarily precise - spl reading, the R.S. meter will be ok.

Tom, precision is pretty much a function of cost. When i was in the Navy we had some SPL meters that were a couple thousand dollars each, and had to be calibrated every quarter... As J.B. said, with those meters 75DB, was EXACTLY 75db, measured to the 1000'th..


However, the precision of an AVR is a function of the quality of the mic being used... even the audyssey pro kit only costs 500$. So, how accurate can that mic be? Also for HT stuff how accurate does the mic need to be? I mean, any of the mic's used are most likely WAY more sensitive than the average ear... So, i would propose that a Radio Shack meter would be more than sufficient..

Thanks for all of the info on SPL meters. The Source's model up here seems to be completely different from previous RS models that most people use. Reviews on it are scarce.

I don't have a fancy smart phone & plan never to get one. I rarely follow the herd - perhaps that's why I like Axioms & ride a Yamaha TMAX, ha!. Being long retired, I hate the interruption of mostly needless phone calls - but that's just me.

The levels that an AVR sets up do not apply with this system as it is driven only by a minimalist tube amp - only one volume control.

What I would like to do is just measure the overall average Db level that I consider to be at a 'moderate' level at my primary listening area so that I can pass on the results here.

I should try to borrow one I guess as it seems to me to be something that I really don't need to buy for just this purpose...

TAM

exlabdriver,

If you know anyone with an Iphone, there is a free SLP meter app. The iphone has a calibrated mic, so it should be as accurate as any sub 100% spl meter... They could always install the app get the reading for you and then delete it if they wanted.

That's a good idea, Alex.

Thanks for the clarification JB and Alex. I appreciate the opportunity to learn from folks here.

dak:

Thanks for the iphone App idea. My daughter in Victoria has one & will be coming up to visit in a couple weeks. I'll get her to download the app & try it out.

I'll put on my new Spiro Gyra SACD at my tube amp's 10 o'clock volume (moderate for me) & 11 o'clock (getting too loud) to see what Dbs my system is putting out at my couch.

We then should be able to nail down roughly whether the EP-400 should be able deliver like my F1000 does. The EP-400 being well over 5Xs more powerful than the F1000, I expect that it should have no trouble equaling or exceeding it.

Super idea, thanks again...

TAM

Has anyone ever tried this?:

http://www.ehow.com/how_12027736_turn-laptop-spl-measuring-tool.html

I thought that I might try the 'ETF Acoustic' demo software on our Toshiba Laptop. I guess that the main factor would be the accuracy of the built-in mic...

TAM

I brought the subject of SPL Meters up at our garage band session tonight. Seems that one of the guys was contemplating buying one until I pointed him to the 'SPL Meter' app for his IPad for $0.99.

He's going to try it out & lend it to me if it works OK.

TAM

I tried it on my iPod Touch. It seemed to have variable results when compared side by side to my real SPL meter. It's probably not the Apps fault though. I just don't think that the mics found on headphones are made for this sort of thing.

My buddy will be over on Friday morning with the $0.99 'SPL Meter' App on his IPad.

Hopefully it will give me a ballpark Db level at my listening position so that I can determine what is a 'moderate level' to my ears...

TAM

Ex,
I have a pretty decent one from extech. You are more than welcome to borrow it for as long as you need it for.

I will get an SLP measurement off of my iphone tomorrow, so you can compare. The i would guess the ipad and iphone use the same mic, so the readings should be the same level of accuracy.

Thanks guys, for your continuing interest & offers of assistance.

Before I do anything else, I'll see what the IPad does here.

I found this comparison between the 2 'i' devices with the 'mic' section being near the end of the video. Comments from viewers seemed to think that the IPad mic is better, but who knows for sure?:

http://www.speakipad.com/ipad-videos/apple-ipad-2-vs-iphone-4-camera-microphone-comparison

dak - I look forward to your results.

TAM

Since i know we both own the Cameron Carpenter Revolutionary CD, i though this would be the best CD to use for a comparative volume.

I have an Iphone 4s, i don't know how the 4s's mic compares to the ipad 2's mic.. When i was getting the reading i was holding the phone upside down, so the mic would be pointed up to get the most accurate reading i could.

I used the "The Real SPL meter" app, as it was free. Also, this app has a digital readout, and displays the peak reading below the current reading. I also set the response to slow.


On Track #7, the first 40 seconds the highest reading i got was 91.6db, with an average in the low 80's.

On track #10 during the first minute, the highes reading was 85.6db, with an average in the low 80's again. The highest reading was around 45 seconds.


My room is 17ft deep and 18ft wide, and i sit 13ft away from the speakers. The measurements were taking while i was sitting in my chair...


i guess this will verify if i listen to music at a reasonable level or not eh?

P.S. my system was in stereo mode, so only the LFR's and 600's were working...

dak:

Wonderful. I have a feeling that those values are probably close to the maximum that I prefer when I'm sober, ha!!

I sit 5 feet closer, so my power requirement will be somewhat less - which is good as my tube amp is optimistically rated at 65 watts/channel. It never seems to strain though.

After I play with the IPad tomorrow, in a couple of weeks I'll get my daughter's IPhone with the same app as you used to see how that works.

Thanks for your help...

TAM

Doing the SPL reading earlier, it really opens your eyes as to the drastic changes in volume within a single track.. The 91db reading barley lasted a second, if that long. Same with the 85.6db..

Alex, those numbers seem to be reasonable for what I term a "comfortably loud" listening level. Assuming a fairly accurate measurement setup existed, your speakers use about 1 watt at average levels and a little under 10 watts at the peaks.

So, you mean my 1200W amp is a bit overkill?

Reality sometimes differs widely from perceptions.

Well I can put out some rather big sound with my weakling tube amp, especially with a modest sub producing the low end...

TAM

Well, I had a brief session with my friend's IPad with the 'SPL Meter' App installed. What a cool device - I may have to get one!

Assuming that it is reasonably accurate, my sound level comfort level (when I'm sober, ha1) is about 75 Dbs Average with the absolute max being 85 Dbs Average.

Spiro Gyra 'Good to Go-Go' SACD is recorded very hot. At my seating area of 8 to 9 feet, my tube-amp levels (o'clock) gave me roughly:

* 10 o'clock - 75 Db Ave / 79 Db max;

* 11 o'clock - 85 Db Ave / 88 Db max.

At the back of the room 25' away from the speakers:

* 10 o'clock - 70 Db Ave / 75 Db Max;

* 10 o'clock - 80 Db Ave / 82 Db Max.

The Cameron Carpenter SACD is recorded at a much lower average level that gave me 65 Dbs Ave / 70 Db Max in the listening area.

According to the specs that I've read on the output of the EP-400, I must conclude that it could capably do the job for my audio only system in my setting by providing more than adequate, clean & accurate bass response.

Thanks to all for your interest & assistance. Comments are most welcome...

TAM

with SPLs like this, you can be sure your sub will do, and it will have lots of reserve too. :-)

JB: I agree, thanks.

In my haste to send send my SPL results for my main audio system, I forgot that I had taken some readings for my M3v3 'ambiance system' in the same room.

We played Wynton Marsalis & Eric Clapton 'play the blues' CD - 'Layla' - on my simple, solid state Sony 90 Watt/Channel, 2 Channel Receiver. I normally run it between 25 & 35 on the Volume Level. Readings were taken midway between the M3s in opposite corners that are 30' apart. We recorded the following SPLs:

* Vol Level 30 - 70 Db Ave & 75 Db Max (moderate level);

* Vol Level 35 - 75 Db Ave & 80 Db Max (just becoming too loud).

My friend was most impressed with the M3's sound. Nice sentiments considering that he is a musician...

TAM

I cannot pass up a bargain. I took advantage of the 'B Stock Sale' in the news letter & just ordered in Boston Cherry a pair of M2s, an EP-400 plus a pair of FMS 24 Stands.

While they are not in the high end finish that I originally desired, I think that they'll fit in just fine into our decor - far better than black. Much easier on my wallet also, ha!!

Thanks for all the help guys...

TAM

i hope you enjoy it well and for a long time. :-)

Tom, your results indicate that the levels you actually use will be no strain on your M2s, EP400, amplifier, and most importantly, your hearing.

An especially interesting result to me was the comparison of the levels at your listening position and at the back of the room. The studies of Dr. Toole and others which indicate about a 3dB lower level per doubling of distance in typical home listening rooms have been mentioned here several times. In your case the back measurement at 25' was not quite two distance doublings and about a 5dB lower level would be expected. Your results do indeed show that difference, varying from 4dB to 6dB. That app may in fact deliver reasonably accurate results.

Using the 'SPL Meter' App was great fun. If you have an iphone, this App works with it as well. It knows what hardware that it is working on & applies the right mic correction. Well worth The $0.99.

I had a typo the last 'back' reading - it should have been 11 o'clock vise 10.

I talked to Brent ref my purchase. He said that I was lucky to have come across an EP-400 on the factory clearance as they are quite rare - that's why I jumped on it. Brent has one in his own system & loves it...

TAM

I was wondering how many people on the forum would take advantage of the "sale" today.. Glad you got your speakers, and were able to save a bit of cash at the same time!...

Update:

Last weekend I set up my new M2s & EP400 where my vintage AX2s/Velo system previously resided. The smaller form factor of the new speakers in Boston Cherry is nicer in appearance than the standard black in our room. The FMS24 stands with the smaller M2s perched on top have a more elegant look - good for WAF.

This new system is simply outstanding as an audio only setup. My tube amp drives them easily to excessive levels in my large space that compares favourably to the output of my previous set up - thankfully proving my initial thoughts that they would be up to the task.

The M2s are accurate, powerful & the EP400 is a monster of a sub for music in a remarkably small package. At about 1/2 Volume & Crossover at 80Hz, it easily vibrates my hardwood floor & whacked my couch nicely from 8' away. For initial testing I played a Spyro Gyra SACD - Good to Go-Go - that is energetic fusion jazz with lots of fast, dynamic bass from drums & electric bass guitar - no one note droning here! The system performed admirably with the EP400 being most impressive. On all other music, including Cameron Carpenter's impressive, dynamic organ pieces, it ably rendered everything that I played accurately & with authority.

All in all, the diminutive M2s/EP400 combo makes a killer audio system even in quite a large room. My thanks to Ian & his crew for designing & manufacturing a very nice sounding system.

Pic of my new set up:



TAM

Very cool, Tom. Great review. I'm sure your experience will be very valuable to others.

I love it when my couch is nicely whacked.

That sub looks disproportionately small. It's... smaller than a wooden duck.

Did you play with placement any? The proximity of the M2's to the side walls is making me really uncomfortable.

Thanks for the picture!

My couch needs whacking....

Tom:

That 'duck' is a very large Canada Goose carving - probably bigger than real life - 25" long by 10" high. I have it there to hide the power cord in the black plastic conduit until I can hide it behind the baseboard.

The M2s are in the alcove & placed there mostly for aesthetics as there is just no other way. They are about 11' apart & are toed in slightly - the outside angled speaker side parallels the short wall. I get great imaging inside the alcove & often it even extends outside the confines of that space.

I'm not worried about it as it sounds just fine to me...

TAM

So the cord is ducking behind the goose?

Mark:

If you want to really get your couch whacked, get a cat.

Hmmm, perhaps it was one of my cats whacking it when I was listening & the sub isn't as good as I thought.

Actually, I think that leather furniture probably reflects more sound than fabric coverings might. It may react a little more in a tactile sense. I think that I'm babbling now.

And yes, the cord is playing with the goose...

TAM

I never should have taught you how to post photos. Now, you just make me all jealous and stuff!

Very good, Tom. Enjoy.

I'm sitting in YVR airport playing with my new BB Playbook tablet. Grabbed one on sale to accompany me on our European River Boat Cruise. Seems to be a great unit so far. It'll be interesting to see how it works over there on our boat as I'm kinda new to this hi tech stuff.

Just waiting for KLM to whisk us to Amsterdam this afternoon.

TAM

Well, 'whisking' wasn't really the correct term - even with good tailwinds that cut half an hour off the flight, it is still a long haul across Canada and the North Atlantic in the middle of the night.

Bicycles everywhere over here in Amsterdam - quite incredible.

I hate being away from our cats; however, our house sitter is probably doing just fine 'herding' them without me.

BTW, the reason for the delay in setting up my new system is that Ian (on his own initiative) tweaked my EP400's DSP's Coding to produce some more output below 25 Hz. This took a couple of weeks of code writing, experimentation and testing on his part.

I really appreciate his efforts and the results sound really good to me...

TAM

Have a wonderful trip, Tom!

I'm jealous. Its been a while since I've been in Europe and Amsterdam is one of my favourite cities. Did you get to the Van Gough museum?

There are museums on every block it seems - very highly rated as well. The only one that we hit today was the 'Anne Frank Museum's. Very poignant and sad.

After supper we strolled through the 'Red Light District. As I expected, very overrated...

TAM

I walked through there early one Sunday morning when I had a few hours to kill before my flight home. Let's just say the 'A' shift does not work those hours!

Enjoy your trip!

You guys are killin' my fantasies...

Killing your fantasies is all part of my rock 'n roll fantasy.

Thanks Mark. Sig updated.

Well, we're back from Europe & now fully recovered. Great river cruise but unfortunately most of the ship's passengers came down with a nasty bug that we surmised came from Asia via an airliner out of Singapore. I wasn't affected too badly but my wife spent 4 days in her cabin. In the future, I think that we'll limit ourselves to travel in North America & perhaps Hawaii - too much money involved going international & becoming sick. It's just not worth it.

Anyway, I've been playing & tweaking my M2/EP-400/tube-amp/SACD system since I got back. Over time, I'm more impressed than ever with the performance of this diminutive audio only system. It has proven to be more than capable for my largish room. The M2s provide wonderful clean mids & highs with absolutely no listening fatigue while the EP-400 is a tremendous performer in the low end - no problem with vibrating my hardwood floor & couch.

In case you missed it, this is my response to Amie's timely 'Quick Tip':

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/quick-tip-2-1-channel-system-or-floorstanding-speakers/

From what I've heard from all of the floor standers that I've auditioned locally (no Axioms unfortunately), I haven't heard any that provide better sound & especially bass extension than my system does. These brands included fairly large Tannoy, Klipsch, Polk, Energy, Focal, Definitive Technology, etc. For audio only, I think that smaller 2.1 systems can easily rival their bigger brothers for moderate listening levels & look good as well - nice WAF.

Because my M2s & EP-400 are often exposed to direct sunlight, I lightly coated them with a vinyl/leather protectant that I use in my car interior - Zymol. I applied a light coat to the vinyl & the next day smoothed out the coating with the same cloth. It resulted in a nice sheen on the surface - quite nice to look at. I would think that reapplying every couple of months might be appropriate.

BTW - I ordered a pair of FMS24 stands from the Factory Outlet for my M3s in the same room to provide more stable platforms & will be more pleasing look than my DIY stands...

TAM

Interesting review and thanks for the tip on the protectant. Both my main level M60 are situated in front of the small walled areas between garden doors and windows. This wall faces the north so it is not direct sunlight. It's been 5 or six years and I haven't noticed any dulling on the finish yet but it might be interesting to compare them with the basement set. At least it would be were it not for the fact that they are so damn heavy.

I am late to this party but thought I would comment anyway. I loved the EP400 when I tried it out. That little sub has some amazing ouput and the seet texture I love about Axiom subs. I am not so sure you really needed the extended range for an audio only system, 25 hz is more than low enough except for some pipe organ music. I am sure you will be happy for years to come with that nice little system.

Jason:

Let me assure you that my M2s, as good as they are, do not & can not 'tickle' my floor & couch in my listening area like the EP400 does. The EP400's crossover is set at 80 Hz & the volume is about half way on the dial. This often proves to be more than required on some recordings, but I put up with it, ha!! Most of the SACDs (the well mixed ones) that I run exclusively through this system are simply stunning in my setting.

A pair of M2s + EP400 (or two) make a marvelous audio only system with a small footprint. This combo easily reaches 85 DBs cleanly that I find is my own limit for loudness...

TAM

I received my second pair of FMS-24 stands today - this time for my M3s.

It might be placebo effect, but I swear that the 'Sade' CD (of which I am very familiar) that I played sounded better - much cleaner in the bass region I think. Perhaps it is due to the better coupling to my hardwood floor as contrasted to my rather lightweight DIY stands that provided no coupling at all.

The Axiom stands are heavy duty & of the highest quality that provide a really safe, stable base for both my M2s & M3s. They look good too...

TAM

I was reffering to Ian's reworking of the EP400 software for more extension, not the M2s.

jake:

Sorry, I misunderstood your ref to Ian's DSP tweaking.

If he wanted to 'improve' the EP400 DSP Software (for all following 400s in that model line) to eek out a bit more oomph at the lowest end, I wasn't going to argue with him. The only downside was that I had to wait a couple of extra weeks for delivery - something that I was more than happy to do.

Interestingly, my EP400 actually went for a ride on his 90' tower during the final testing.

TAM

Its not a placebo effect. When i got my M2's i did alot of searching for a set of stands that matched the speakers and decor. Along the way i found plenty of information relating to speaker stand's and their construction along with balast etc and its effect ont he sound of the speaker.I had my M2's sitting on my old speakers while i waited for my stands to arrive. The difference was huge, even though the height was essentially the same. I see that axiom sells ballast to add to the fms stands.
richard

No problem, I figured my original statement was taken the wrong way. It is cool that your sub went up the tower and as always no harm in getting a little more performance.

Resurrecting an old thread:

Well, 'The Boss' was feeling especially pleasant on 'Mother's Day' yesterday & approved my suggestion for another Axiom speaker.

So, I am adding to my wonderful 2 X M2, 1 X EP400, Tube Amp & SACD Audio Only System - an order for a second EP400 from Axiom's B-Stock stash.

So each M2 will now have its own miniature, killer sub. How cool is that?

TAM

Very!