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I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38754 03/26/04 09:56 PM
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Okay. So my little shootout among $300/pr. bookshelf speakers is the equivalent of a midget wrestling match, minus the tabloid-novelty factor. I get that. Nevertheless, I think my observations have value, especially because I suspect a lot of guys share this frustration: When I got into this, I found a relative dearth of thoughtful reviews — consumer or expert — on the speakers I eventually chose, Cambridge Soundworks Newton Series M60s.

THE ROAD TO CAMBRIDGE
The idea was to find a great sounding 5.1 system for 60/40 music/movies use. Almost immediately I figured out that typical box-store sat & sub combos just don’t cut it. Their answer to the Wife Approval Factor is to make the sats small, so they have no real range, certainly nothing below 120Hz. I decided on a different tack: find some bookshelf speakers that sound better than little plastic cubes and are attractive—or even decorative—enough that they don’t have to be hidden. I auditioned $200-$400 Polk, Jamo, Kef, and Paradigm units in stores, and did a two-week, in-home A/B comparo with the Axiom M3ti and the CSW M60s.

The first thing you notice about the CSW M60s is that they are gorgeous. In fact, I got interested in the Newton series because they could be had with not only real veneer, but blonde maple, a real rarity among speakers in this class. (They’re also available in mahogany.) Plus their cool, stylish grille design and blue-grey fabric perfectly complement our retro-mod tastes. The pictures on the web site don’t do them justice; in real life, the wood is so inviting, you can’t help but want to touch them. And, much as it pains me to say it, they make the M3s look downright homely.

Before you dismiss me as too easily wooed by pretty cabinets, let me tell you about the Olympian level of WAF you face when you live with an interior designer: I considered trying a pair of Aperions but, despite their genuine cherry veneers and liberal no-risk return policy, she nixed them over "those ugly black grilles."

One of the things I’ve figured out from this process is that, if you're happily married and want to stay that way, all A/V purchases are going to be compromises. Women love shoes and hate speakers. Like dogs hate vacuum cleaners. A guy could go crazy trying to puzzle out why. Or you can accept it as a fact of life, and move on. In my (admittedly limited) experience, anybody who’s in a position to judge speakers soley on their audible merits is probably a) divorced, b) getting divorced, or c) living in a van, down by the river.

YOU HAD ME AT “HELLO.”
In all fairness, it’s not just how speakers look to her and sound to me. I’m a sucker for interesting, sophisticated design. All other things being equal, I tend to go for the brand that puts some effort into the aesthetic, tactile experience of its products beyond the functional criteria. So these maple honeys pretty much won me over before I ever hooked them up. I was ready to rationalize even mediocre sound from the moment I opened the box.

Fortunately, I didn’t have to. They are rich, detailed, and musical. Acoustic piano, sax, trumpet, and clarinet reproduce brilliantly, as do male and female vocals. They’re no slouch in the rock dept., either. U2’s “Elevation” is a sonic thrill ride, especially with my new Hsu STF-2 bringing the thunder.

The CD I used for all my auditions consisted of Alison Krauss, Nora Jones, U2, Miles Davis, XTC, Annie Lennox, Paul Simon, Linda Ronstadt, and some Latin-flavored pop from Kirsty MacColl and Raul Malo (of Mavericks fame).

To paraphrase Forrest Gump, “I’m not an audiophile, but I know what good sound is.” I love music and movies, and I consider myself a pretty discriminating consumer of content and technology. Certainly, I know what sounds good to me. I’ll readily admit that, out of everything I auditioned, the Paradigm Mini Monitors sounded best. Great detail, tight bass and beautiful vocals. They also cost ~$120/pr. more. And they’re finished in a ho-hum cherry vinyl w/ the disqualifying black grilles. The M3s (in Mansfield Beech w/beige grilles) were marginally better on bass extension and overall soundstage. But none of them look half as good as the CSWs.

THE BOTTOM LINE
After all was said and done, the difference in sound performance was so negligible that, in everyday, real-world use—and even under fairly critical listening—I never feel like I’m missing anything with the CSWs. The instruments all sound real and present (“The schnozberries taste like schnozberries!”) I’ve since ordered up an MC400 center and a pair of M50s as surrounds.

The M3s are great little bookshelf speakers. The performed admirably , but ultimately came in second. When I closed my eyes, I could hardly tell them from the M60s. When I opened my eyes, though, I definitely could. They just don’t class up the joint the way the Newtons do.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT
Given the scarcity of thoughtful, detailed criticism on the whole Newton line, and the M60s in particular, I was expecting them to sound only acceptable at best.

Now I’m pleasantly surprised, but a little puzzled.

Why is it that —unlike Paradigm, Energy, Ascend, Onix Rockets, et al., which get talked up pretty consistently, or Axiom, which hosts its own forums—so little is written/said about CSW, when they are, to my ears anyway, legitimate contenders in this class? Is there some stigma toward CSW stuff that accounts for them being so widely overlooked?

You’ll be shocked (shocked!) to hear that I have a theory about why people hesitate is include CSW.
  • General suspicion about anything that seems too good to be true.
  • Lacks word-of-mouth approval among hi-fi cognoscenti. (IOW: No cult cachet or snob appeal)
  • CSW doesn’t pay return shipping if you’re unhappy. (Actually, neither does Axiom, but I figure that’s still a more reasonable price to pay, especially compared to some of the stores I visited that wanted a 25% restock fee. Ho-kay, buh-BYE!)

Fortunately, the CSWs being damned with faint praise didn’t dissuade me. I gave them an objective hearing and I’m thrilled. If CSW was smart (or had enough confidence in their products) they’d put a forum like this on their web site. It goes a long way, IMO, toward inspiring confidence in a mail-order purchase of a high-dollar investment in such a subjective product.

For Axiom, my advice is this: Keep up the good work. And consider making one of your custom finishes, somwhere between the maple and the beech, available as a stock finish.

Finally, let me say that my overall experience with everyone at Axiom — Amy, Allen, Joe, and folks on this board — has been first-rate. It's a great company with tremendous products that I would heartily recommend to anyone looking for the best bang per buck on speakers. In fact, if no one objects, I plan to continue lurking and occasionally posting on these boards, because I like the vibe. Y’all have some great ideas and insights about HT and hi-fi in general. (Also, I secretly wish I were Canadian, but that’s an issue for another forum.)

Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38755 03/26/04 10:25 PM
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Congratulations on getting something you like. That's really what counts. And welcome to the forum and feel free to hang around. Concerning the CSWs there has been a bit posted on this forum here.
As well as on other forums like hometheaterhifi.com and avsforum.com.

I personally did an A/B of the CSW M80s with the M22tis (that's the link I provided above) and I agree with you. The CSW speakers are prettier. Of course, I'm single so maybe my experience does not count ;-)

Oh and one thing I would add in reference to your "why not more info" about the CSWs (IMHO) is that there is no real cache to their name. Some people are snobs and want the fancy name regardless of quality.

jr


"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." C Hitchens
Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38756 03/26/04 10:37 PM
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Great post! Thanks for you insight. SAF is a huge factor. It can't be taken lightly.

Please stay and hang out here. There are numerous regulars here that don't own an axiom product.



Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38757 03/26/04 11:12 PM
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Congrats on your well-thought-out and researched decision. Consider yourself lucky to have been able to audition both speakers in your own home.

I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that if your shootout were between the M22ti and the Newton M60s, the results would have been different.

Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38758 03/27/04 12:04 AM
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Super post. Please stick around. I went through a similar thing between Axioms and Ascends. I just couldn't get past the looks of the Ascends. UGH! (Now Curtis, don't you pick on me)


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38759 03/27/04 12:42 AM
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In reply to:

I just couldn't get past the looks of the Ascends. UGH! (Now Curtis, don't you pick on me)




LOL....no worries, part of that is already remedied, and there should be nicer looking stuff down the road.



Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38760 03/27/04 01:10 AM
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Once Ascend starts making some good looking speakers...phew! that will be a really tough speaker to beat. Heck, as ugly as they are, they're still a dang fine purchase!


Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38761 03/27/04 01:14 AM
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Oh Curtis, don't tell me that. Now I'll start thinking about options.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38762 03/27/04 02:15 AM
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That was a great post shrubber. Very well written.
I think SAF is very important, but unpredicatble. I just received my M3ti's last week and they had a great SAF, last year I brought home a pair of monitor silver 5's with the rosewood veneer and they did not pass the SAF and had to go back to the store. I was choked to take back the monitors, they are great speakers, but from now on, I get approval every purchase.
I think the m3's look pretty good and sound great for the price.

Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38763 03/27/04 03:09 AM
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Thanks everybody for your replies. This is by far the best place to hang out and talk about A/V gear. Even your speaker cable flame wars are more civilized

James:
Thanks for the link to Peter's(?) and your reviews of the M22 vs. CSW M80. I recall reading that in its early form. Don't know why I didn't keep up with that thread during my search. So many message boards, so little time.

In reply to:

I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that if your shootout were between the M22ti and the Newton M60s, the results would have been different. --pmbuko



Maybe, though that would hardly be a fair fight

Paulu:
Which finish/grille combo did you get your M3s in? I was really torn between the maple and the beech. Joe at Axiom even sent me some knockout slugs and fabric swatches to help me decide. The maple just seemed too bleached looking, so we went with the beech, which ended up looking really artificial. And an extra $95 to get them in a finish closer to my ideal tone just didn't seem worth it for a $275 pair of speakers. Now I'm wondering if maybe the maple...GAH, I've gotta STOP doing that!

You're definitely right about the capriciousness of WAF. There's no discernable rhyme or reason to it. I'm still having to lobby for correct placement of the surrounds. I think if I put them where I want them and then put on some ABBA, I have half a chance of selling her.

Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38764 03/27/04 08:58 AM
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Well, all in all - you have to be happy with what you buy and there are a lot of factors.

For me to move to Axiom (Paradigm was the front runner for me) - the hook was price and the set was Ian's approach to audio. No frills, no whiz-bang - put together a solid line of products and base your decisions on proven scientific facts. So when I'm done (currently only have Axiom mains - will be ordering my surrounds soonish - ie: when I know I'll have time to set them up without leaving other things undone, after all, who among us can leave speakers in boxes while we do the honourable thing and get the necessary things in life done first?) I'll have a great sounding system and enough money left in the bank to do everything else I like to do. It also didn't hurt that Axiom is a Canadian company, meaning no hassle at the border (and the hassle only ever seems to be on products entering Canada, I never hear Americans complain about them getting rooked at customs) and then seeing Alan Lofft's name associated with them (used to seeing his name in bylines of trade publications) and you've got a win-win-win situation.

I personally really like the colour of the Beech veneer (I ruled out Maple as too light, Boston Cherry as too rustic and Black... well, I think black looks cheap) and I intentionally bought them with tan grills for a bit of a retro feel (I would have gotten gold grills if it was possible without going custom) - even though they've never been back on the speakers since they were unboxed.

As for Cambridge not getting their just desserts, they shot themselves in the foot for me by selling off their low end powered speaker division to Creative. Bought my fiancee a set of CSW computer speakers, paid a pretty penny for them - and lo and behold, the line had been recently changed - the satellites were down to 3W I think, and the sub was plastic and particleboard (not even MDF!). The second you can't trust a company on name alone you second guess all their products.

Luckily I don't have to worry about SAF, she can appreciate my "function before form" philosophy, not that the Axioms are ugly, but in my case, they're prominent - nothing hidden here. She thought the whole thing was pretty trivial until I set up the 3.0 system... then she (pardon the pun) changed her tune and wanted to know when the rest of the speakers would be ordered.

Bren R.

Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38765 03/27/04 03:01 PM
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My Beech QS8s look awesome mounted on the off-white walls, but the Beech M3s looked a little "artificial" (as Shrubber noted) in another room, next to some darker wood.

Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38766 03/27/04 03:50 PM
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Bren, you pretty much nailed my opinion on several things too.

'll have a great sounding system and enough money left in the bank... Axiom is a Canadian company, meaning no hassle at the border (and the hassle only ever seems to be on products entering Canada, I never hear Americans complain about them getting rooked at customs)....well, I think black looks cheap... the satellites were down to 3W I think, and the sub was plastic and particleboard (not even MDF!). The second you can't trust a company on name alone you second guess all their products. ..."


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38767 03/28/04 04:13 AM
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Oh-oh... Chess and I are apparently the same person.

And further to the SAF - she's started painting out the built-in media bookcase thing tonight and asking when I'm stripping the cedar wall (want to do it before getting the QSs).

Ah, well.. other concerns right now... the lane here is looking like Venice - garage has already flooded, hoping the basement won't be next... and my DVD player's decided to suddenly "freeze" from time to time and excrete a loud white noise sound... grrr...

Bren R.

Re: I just sent the M3s back. Here's why...
#38768 03/28/04 04:32 AM
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Oh well then don't the parallels just continue.
My window well has failed and i've been outside all day with a submersible pump and a steel spade attempting to dig gopher holes in frozen ground in order to keep my basement from flooding. The shed already has items floating out the door.
I'm one frustrated gopher let me tell you.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
For the sake of clarity
#38769 03/29/04 03:48 PM
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A couple things I should have said better/gotten right in my original post:

1) It's easy to take for granted just how cool this company is. How many other audio brands would host a forum and allow posters to openly critique their products in comparison to a competitor? Are there ANY?

When I called to get my RA code, I had the good fortune to talk to Alan. He was genuinely curious about why I was sending the speakers back, and not at all defensive, nor was he dismissive or critical about my choice. We had a nice chat about the state of speaker manufacturing, importing, and finishing. It's just so rare and refreshing to find a company that's genuinely interested in understanding its customers. I'll definitely be back.

2) It's Alan, not Allen; it's Amie, not Amy.
Soory aboot that.

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