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#395069 - 07/12/13 02:22 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: Scott44]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Nick's your man on that, too.
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#395075 - 07/12/13 03:34 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: Scott44]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4516
Loc: Marion, IA
LOL. Yup. I do.

First up, I agree. Treat the room and then look at speaker upgrades. I simply stated that when you do upgrade, the VP150 doesn't have much resale value (not that it is a bad center channel).

Now on to the screen...

"Acoustically Transparent" screens are not made equal... This is actually a good thing.

Again, my research showed that "perforated" screens are OK (not great though) at visual brightness, but not great for sound transmission and a number of people can see the perforation holes.

So stay away from perf screens.

Go for a woven screen for the most audio transparency if you want to go AT. The absolute best bang for your buck would be Seymour Center Stage XD. You can do what I did and buy the material right from them and make your own frame, or do what a guy that I work with did and go to Jamestown Home Theater Screens and have them make the frame for you and bundle the Seymour screen with it.

Just be aware that the Seymour screen material is always in short supply, so there are long lead times for the bulk material from Seymour, and even longer at Jamestown, so plan ahead.

Here is there website:
Jamestown

Outside of going to a high end woven screen, that is one of the best out there. Even then, Seymour offers an even higher quality product, but not in a DIY version or price. They call it Enlightor 4K. It is a finer weave, but also less than 1.0 gain, so that could be a factor.

Seymour's main site is: Seymour AV

So now to your question. Does it change the sound? Absolutely. Anyone that says it doesn't is flat out lying. Now, is it a noticeable difference? Out of the box, yes again. I mean, you are still blocking the sound waves no matter how good the material is. So why would anyone use it? Why did I go with it? Well, lots of reasons. The main one being that my center channel is directly in the middle of the screen and not longer mounted above the screen near the ceiling (bad for acoustic output from the center channel), or on the floor in a less-than-idea location. It also made for a much cleaner looking screen area. Sure, it is a shame to hide the Axioms.

So, what do I think about the sound? It is great!

"Wait, what? I thought you said that it blocked sound, how could you possibly like it at all?"

Yes I do. The screen material will reduce the response at some certain higher frequencies (lower frequencies aren't impacted by the screen), but you just compensate for that manually, using an SPL meter and adjusting it on your receiver, or run something like Audyssey to compensate for it.

That is what I've done and I am going to do again today now that I have my 2nd sub installed. I learned a few "calibrations" ago, that you can't just put the Audyssey microphone anywhere you want. There is a method to it that doesn't make logic sense at first (you actually put the mic at two of the same spots twice each, and move from there for example).

Anyway, with that, I am getting the great sound that I am used to when I didn't have an AT screen, and still getting the benefits that I wanted.

So I am all for doing a full false front wall with an AT screen. Mine is about 2.5 feet deep from the real wall, and the false wall and AT screen hide my L/C/R speakers, both massive subs, front bass traps, and full front wall acoustical treatment.

Any other questions, just fire away.
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#395079 - 07/12/13 03:52 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: nickbuol]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Nick, you're awesome. Your explanation - including the concept of the Audyssey correction - makes SO much sense that I could actually consider a AT screen in good conscience for the first time. If I had the house for it. Which I don't.

Originally Posted By: nickbuol
you actually put the mic at two of the same spots twice each, and move from there for example


Wait, what? I've been using an old Audyssey guide from AVS, and I definitely don't remember THAT drill. Can you tell me more or direct me somewhere?
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#395083 - 07/12/13 04:08 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: Scott44]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4516
Loc: Marion, IA
Get this, I just learned something new too. Like minutes ago. It is related to AT screens. I was just told by someone (still asking for documented research to verify it) that if using an AT screen that you should remove the speaker grills. Something about it being a measurable difference in sound. Not sure I fully am convinced, but I might as well remove them since you can't see them anyway.

Now, for the Audyssey guide, ask and you shall receive:
Here is a link to the exact post. Go down to Step 11 and look at the pictures. Notice that some of the pictures have mic locations 3 and 4 marked in purple and duplicate locations 1 and 2. Some Audyssey setups only allow for 6 microphone locations, so those people would skip #3 and #4. I can do 8 locations, so I will do #3 and #4 which duplicate #1 and #2.
Audyssey Microphone Placements

Here is the whole guide:
Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#395085 - 07/12/13 04:11 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: Scott44]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17791
Loc: NoVA
ga-whuh?
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#395087 - 07/12/13 04:20 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: nickbuol]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
I was just told by someone (still asking for documented research to verify it) that if using an AT screen that you should remove the speaker grills. Something about it being a measurable difference in sound.

Seems plausible. Consider the following. How many layers of acoustically transparent material could you add in front of a speaker before it made an audible difference. Maybe not two, but three? Four? When you start adding layers, you'll approach the realm of audibility.

Seems like prudent advice.
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#395089 - 07/12/13 04:50 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: Scott44]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Thanks again, Nick.

Yeah, the grill thing makes a lot of sense.
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#395090 - 07/12/13 07:09 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: pmbuko]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10942
Loc: Central NH
Originally Posted By: pmbuko

Seems plausible. Consider the following. How many layers of acoustically transparent material could you add in front of a speaker before it made an audible difference. Maybe not two, but three? Four? When you start adding layers, you'll approach the realm of audibility.

Seems like prudent advice.

So, removing each of those layers is like lifting a veil? grin

Nick, I've got a question, just to be philosophical (I'm LESS likely to have a screen than even Tom):

By how much are you talking when you say that you can just EQ the highs (or use Audyssey, if you prefer). I'm wondering if, for example, the highs need to be increased by 3dB there isn't a substantially increased danger of blowing / burning out the tweeters?

Or, are you just talking a tiny bit of an increased treble level to compensate?
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#395091 - 07/12/13 07:36 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: Scott44]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Are you trying to say that Nick is overcompensating?
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#395093 - 07/12/13 08:54 PM Re: Dedicated HT Upgrade Help... [Re: Scott44]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4516
Loc: Marion, IA
Fair question Mark.
Let me put it this way, if you didn't do an A/B test (with vs without screen material in front of a speaker) you probably wouldn't even notice. It is that little. I picked up on it back when I first make my screen frame and put the Seymour XD material on it. Before I mounted it on the wall, I listened to some music with just one M60 plugged in. I then had my daughter hold one end of the screen in front of the speaker, and then lift it out of the way.

Honestly, I may have been noticing it more since I could see the test (screen moving in front of and away from the speaker).

I just let Audyssey handle it. I don't have a SPL meter to test the actual frequency drop, and even if I did I have read several reviews that say that the drop is so small that it falls within the margin of error of the SPL meter, it is THAT little of a difference. The graphs online show that there is no drop until about 6KHz, and then the higher frequencies above that drop a little more the higher you go. Even so, the average dBA drop between the high range of 16KHz - 20Khz is 2dB. Overall average drop is just 0.7 dB. Most professional reviews say that you don't have to make any audio adjustments.

Hope that helps. I guess I am compensating when I don't need to, but why not. It doesn't take that long to do a calibration anyway.
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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