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#400002 - 01/12/14 05:23 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 302
and it was in that post that I said well whynot save the extra money and get a bookshelf, if your just going to waste the bottom end away and not use it.
Alan and I think it was sirquack and or some one else said ,that because the mids and such are better produced by the M80's.
_________________________
HK 3490
M80 HG Cherry
2x Energy ESW10 Subs

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#400005 - 01/12/14 06:09 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1035
Many posts over at some other forums by a couple of their resident 'experts' are of the view that if you are using towers with subs in a HT setup where the AVR sets the towers to 'Small', then the whole lower end of the towers (<80 Hz) isn't being used & thus is a waste. I kinda agree with that premise & that is why I've gone with sats + subs.

Furthermore, as I understand it, a HT AVR combines the LFE into 1 channel for movie soundtracks & probably for live music concerts. My M2 + EP-400 audio only system is a true Stereo (2 channel - not 2.1 nor 2.2) only. On certain SACDs & CDs I can definitely hear bass notes coming out of one channel or the other as they should.

I don't know why the M80 would sound better than a M22 in the mid to high range. If it does, then the difference would be subtle at best & of course be a completely subjective opinion of the particular listener...

TAM

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#400014 - 01/13/14 08:45 AM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 302
Ok, Ok I think I finally am getting it. Other than being able to position the book shelfs better.

I was thinking of that Alan post and he said the M80's produce better in the mids.

then, I got to thinking, however I still think it is a waste of speaker. But, My Anthem MRX710, when it calibrates the system I have two selections in the software program. I can calibrate it for movies and all 7 speakers and subs. And it will save the settings, then I can also select for Music and it re-calculates for music and from 2 speakers left and right to 2.1 and 7.1 settings whatever you choose and saves this as music.
there is where I can set the mains to small for movies and I will get the better mids to highs.

when watching a movie I use my PS3 and the settings automatically go to 7.1 and small with subs and the calibration that was done for that setting.
then I have a second blue ray player for music and I set the settings on the second to Music and it will auto switch to the 2 speaker and full range.
_________________________
HK 3490
M80 HG Cherry
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#400027 - 01/13/14 01:22 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3189
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Troyd,

I have never stated that the M80s produce better mids and highs than the M80s. I have said that the M80s have a bit more "body" or fullness, in the upper bass, than the M22s.

In my own installation, with M22s and M80s (both are V2 versions, not V3s) on an instantaneous switcher, with an EP500 that can operate with either pair, the speakers are virtually indistinguishable when the M22s are operated within their limits, which means not at deafingly loud "party" levels.

Bookshelf speakers are not intended to play at extremely loud levels in very large rooms; that's where the multiple drivers of the M80 come into their own. The M80s can play very cleanly at extremely loud levels in large rooms and lots of enthusiasts, including Axiom's president, Ian, love those levels.

In my average-size apt. living room, about 2100 cu. ft., the M22s with the EP500 subwoofer can play as loud as I ever require, and do so without audible distortion.

As to setting M80s to "Small", you are not "wasting" the bass capability of the M80s. Deep bass response doesn't just fall off a cliff as the frequencies get lower. It gradually diminishes, so setting the M80s to Small, will continue to let the M80s woofers to contribute, but as the frequencies get lower, the subwoofer takes over and extends the deep bass to lower frequencies. So the M80s woofers don't have to "work" as hard as they otherwise would without a subwoofer.

To answer previous comments about v2 and v3 upgrades, those occurred on all the Axiom speakers. In each case, it was a better tweeter, with wider dispersion and better power handling, that replaced the tweeter in the previous versions. Also, Ian routinely tweaks the crossover(s) in each speaker when the newer tweeter is implemented. So the frequency response through the midrange is adjusted for better smoothness or linearity.

In tests I did at Axiom (not at home), the newer tweeter and adjusted frequency response in upgraded versions of the M80, M60 and M22, resulted in smoother overall response through the midrange and what seemed to be improved spatial presentation.
In the case of the M60, it turned what I had previously viewed to be a "good" speaker into a great speaker, not quite up to the M80s, but awfully close. I hadn't much liked the first M80ti a dozen yeas ago, nor was I all that fond of the first M60, which I found "edgy" on some brass instruments and strings.

To my ears, even the earliest version of the M22s were excellent, and later versions improved on the "ti" M22s.

Even before the M80s' "ti" designation was dropped, Ian had already greatly improved its midrange response, removing the little glitches that had bothered me when I first joined Axiom.

Regards,
Alan
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Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#400028 - 01/13/14 01:24 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: alan]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3189
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Oops, that first sentence should read ". . .produce better mids and highs than the M22s" (not than the M80s).

Alan
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#400029 - 01/13/14 01:33 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 302
and I should have put " the M80's Handle the mids, Better " not produce.
But, you have explained.
I am still searching because I know a few have mentioned this before, Sorry thought it was you.
But, there were a few who replied that the M80's were.

Anyways, I think I am going to maybe stick with the M80 for both and upgrade the Anthem MRX, I could use the excess money now to go to the M100's
_________________________
HK 3490
M80 HG Cherry
2x Energy ESW10 Subs

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#400034 - 01/13/14 03:09 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 302
I have my quote for the Bryston Mini T and Mini Centre .......

$2500 for the Mini T and $2000 for the centre, like that's going to happen ...NOT

then they said I can use 4 Mini Ts as rears and back surrounds.
_________________________
HK 3490
M80 HG Cherry
2x Energy ESW10 Subs

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#400054 - 01/14/14 11:32 AM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5908
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I know you guys probably hate it when I chime in on this, but there was an improvement in upper base response when I added the VP160 into my M22 / EP350 / QS8 mix. Using the Police, Certifiable where you watch Sting play bass, there is a definite boost in the upper bass response with the VP160. I could see him playing the upper bass, but not hearing it before I added the VP160.

(Oh noooo. That can't happen because I've never experienced it.)

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#400065 - 01/14/14 03:29 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I can completely believe that Cat. As Alan said, even if you crossover an M80 at 80hz the woofers are still contributing lower mid-bass since a crossover is a gradual attenuation of the signal not a brick wall. Many reviewers will address this by using a higher 120hz crossover to try covering this hole with bookshelf speakers, at the expense of directionality of the subwoofer. Bookshelfs can make a nice front stage, but a full range speaker imho is still better.

richard
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#400067 - 01/14/14 03:46 PM Re: M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are [Re: TroyD]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
AND - if you're talking about addition of a center channel speaker, there are multiple settings related to either the receiver or the subwoofer that would explain a different experience.
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