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#401722 - 03/07/14 10:18 PM ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup?
Phaedrus Offline
regular

Registered: 03/07/14
Posts: 5
Hello, I'm looking for some advice on what amplifier to get.

Last year I upgraded to the M22 on-walls, VP150 on-wall center, and QS8 surrounds. This year I'd like to add a separate power amp in order to get the most out of it.

Right now I'm using a Yamaha RX-A2010 AV receiver, which thus far has been excellent, but is limited in power output as any AV receiver is.

I think the ADA-1000 configured for 5 channels should be adequate, am I right?

The M22's are rated as a max of 200 watts, which the ADA-1000 should put out per channel at 4ohms, which the receiver is set to. Does that sound right? Will I notice a difference with the added power?

Here's a pic of my setup. The on-walls may not be the biggest and best, they sure do look slick.

Thanks in advance. smile


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#401723 - 03/07/14 11:25 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Phae, welcome to Axiom. Amplification doesn't work the way you seem to think. Any amplifier, including those in receivers, isn't limited in power output to any greater extent than its official output rating. In the case of your 2010 that's at least 140 watts per channel. The Axioms are of average sensitivity and use about 1 watt at a comfortably loud average output level. Brief peaks use much more of course, but not likely anything that your 2010 can't handle with ease. So, power wise you're already getting the "most" out of your speakers(unless you're considering extreme loudness levels damaging to your hearing). A separate amplifier with a higher maximum output capability can't do anything but add the ability to sustain a louder listening level or to provide more "headroom" for brief peaks. But as I've pointed out many times, if sufficient headroom already exists, unused headroom is simply that: unused.
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-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#401724 - 03/07/14 11:35 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
@Phaedrus

While john is very pragmatic I on the other hand am more Tim Allen grin . I don't let anyone tell me what I may or may not hear. I say get it and if you don't like it I believe you have 30 days to return it though I doubt you will. I use 2 Emotiva amps and if anyone wants them they will have to pry them from my cold dead hands. I like Ian's motto, you cant have too much power.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#401726 - 03/08/14 12:26 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1018
If you party with them there is the chance you'll use the power.
I agree with both Johnk and Socketman. If you're not using it you may want to consider a second sub on a differnt upgrade.If you do like loud music (out of room listening, party now and then, etc) you'll be happy with the amp.
I have a 1000-4 and think I've used it to its potential once to date, the one and only time my speakers have sounded strained (crazy loud).
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#401734 - 03/08/14 07:30 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17766
Loc: NoVA
I think there's a few more things that need to be cleared up.

1. Do not set your receiver for 4 ohm operation. Ever. All that does is limit the power from the receiver to comply with certification standards and doing it could actually damage your speakers due to receiver clipping.

2. Since none of your speakers are 4 ohm, you should not set your receiver to 4 ohm. The impedance rating comes from speakers, not amplifiers.

3. Max wattage on speakers is not really relevant. It's a recommendation, but too many people put too much emphasis on it. Speakers do not require a specific wattage nor do they immediately explode or otherwise fail if presented with more than that number. (unless it's a LOT more than that number...)
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I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#401741 - 03/08/14 10:00 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Ken.C]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10873
Loc: Central NH
Thanks for posting that, Ken. You hit all the points that I wanted to make and saved me lots of typing!

Phaedrus, if you're thinking that there are limitations with your receiver, you've likely been imposing them yourself with that "4 Ohm" setting!

Welcome to the forum, BTW.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#401759 - 03/08/14 02:32 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
regular

Registered: 03/07/14
Posts: 5
I knew I'd get some quick replies. Thanks for posting!

1. I'll double check if I'm set to 4 ohms or not and report back. It's been a while since I set it up. I could be mistaken. I did do a lot of reading at the time on these forums when I set it, so I thought I had set it properly. (just checked and it's set at 8 ohms. I recall my reading now.)

2. The Yamaha is rated to 140W with only 2 channels driven. I'm guessing that drops quite a bit with all 5 driven, no?

3. I do listen fairly loudly. Mostly blu rays and gaming, so there's usually a lot going on in all channels.

4. Given this information, do you still think further amplification won't be worth while?

Thanks again.

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#401761 - 03/08/14 02:43 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I found this from a past review by HomeTheater Guide before they became Sound & Vision. The are one of the few mags that actually test power into more than 2 channels.

Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)

• 1 channel driven: 187/268 W (22.7/24.3 dBW)

• 5 channels driven (8 ohms): 62 W (17.9 dBW)

• 7 channels driven (8 ohms): 60 W(17.8 dBW)

Distortion at 1 watt (THD+N, 1 kHz)

• 8/4 ohms: 0.02/0.02%

Noise level (A-wtd): –75.1 dB



My vote is , get the amp. As I said you can return it but I highly doubt you will.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#401773 - 03/08/14 06:45 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Socketman]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Originally Posted By: Socketman




My vote is , get the amp. As I said you can return it but I highly doubt you will.


I agree, I've always said buy as much power as you can afford.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#401779 - 03/08/14 10:05 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Your use of "only" 2 channels driven indicates that you may not fully grasp the significance of the amplifier power ratings. 2 channels driven(at full rated power for at least 5 continuous minutes)is the basic requirement set by law(Federal Trade Commission regulations)for the ratings(a 1 channel rating doesn't comply). The FTC explicitly rejected a suggestion to make the requirement all channels driven, finding simultaneous full power in all channels to be unrealistic in home use.

Blu-rays and gaming certainly do have things going on in all channels at times, but this isn't at full power in all and the 2-channel FTC rating is the more realistic one overall.

The quoted portions of the 2010 review were actually done by Sound&Vision's Dan Kumin(not Home Theater Magazine)some months before the merger of the two under the Sound&Vision title. The numbers shown there on the lab test with 2-channels driven were 161 watts into 8 ohms and 255 into 4 ohms.

Listening distance is a key factor in power calculations and from your picture it appears that you're operating in fairly close quarters. There's nothing to indicate that unless you'd like to employ listening levels that would cause permanent hearing damage that the rather substantial capability of the 2010 isn't ample for your needs. You've stated that it's been "excellent" and there's no good reason to suspect that this would mysteriously change. Purchase of an additional amplifier with unneeded excess capacity isn't economically sensible.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#401793 - 03/09/14 04:49 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
regular

Registered: 03/07/14
Posts: 5
Alright, some in favour, some against. Are there any m22 owners out there that have used an external amp?

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#401797 - 03/09/14 05:43 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Some light reading here so you can form your own opinion.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#401825 - 03/10/14 09:51 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6802
Loc: PEI, Canada
I could give you my opinion on the technical side but truly, my advice is,do what makes you happy.

You can analyse this and come to a logical conclusion one way or the other but sometimes satisfaction is not always about logical.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#401831 - 03/10/14 12:26 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
you can have all the power you want with those speakers, as long as you use common sense with the vol. control.

if at some point you hear some distortion, slowly turn down the vol. until it has disappeared. if the distortion remains, then it probably comes from the source signal.

i have over 5000 watts of amplification on my system, but i use my good judgment and sense; no danger then.

in order to hear sound at its best, one must be sure that fast instantaneous peaks will not be clipped. those peaks are often about 10 db higher than the average level, but they can go up to 20 or so dB higher. that's when *power* is used and useful.

not clipping peaks gives a sense of "live performance" in playback, if the source is of good quality.
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or: Axiom Gallery

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#401832 - 03/10/14 12:55 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
regular

Registered: 03/07/14
Posts: 5
I guess we will see how the tax man treats me this year. It's on my short list, but the money might be better spent on finishing the room.

Thanks for the feedback.

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#401834 - 03/10/14 03:30 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
I guess we will see how the tax man treats me this year. It's on my short list, but the money might be better spent on finishing the room.

Thanks for the feedback.


Just an fyi , all of us here expect you to be irresponsible and impulsive and throw caution to the wind when asking a question such as this. grin I can spend someone else's money like crazy.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#401835 - 03/10/14 04:49 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 148
Tough one. Your amp is not your bottleneck here.... major sonic upgrades will need some investment in getting your room layout and speaker placement better, ie. getting the mains off of the wall and spaced better. The stair wall is creating a bad acoustic reflection that is no doubt coloring the sound and narrowing your soundstage. Investment probably not worth it with your current room config. smile

But, if you are into buying an external power amp, check it's input sensitivity rating. This is the amount of voltage required to drive the amplifier to max output. Your preamp outputs are maxed at 1V according to the manual. If you buy an external amp with input sensitivity greater than 1V (to reach max output) you will never use all the power you just purchased. You will never drive the input signal on the amp side to 100%. smile

For examples only, you will never drive this amp much past half of its rated output spec, even with your receiver set to full volume as a preamp.

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpr5

This would be a better choice:

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa500

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#401839 - 03/10/14 10:37 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
The ada is 1.2 volts to full power so it will come close. It is true that the preamp in a receiver is designed to work in harmony with the built in amps and often do not provide as much voltage on the preouts as one would like but amp manufacturers do compensate for this to some extent. I missed where the model of his receiver was mentioned. The xpr5 requires more input voltage than the xpa5 , I think anyone buying a xpr5 has a proper full fledge pre/pro .

MY Bad it is a Yamaha rx a2010 I forgot.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#401843 - 03/10/14 11:20 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
My apologies to hellcomute, I was speed reading again. I blame all the cold meds cool
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#401845 - 03/10/14 11:29 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 148
Whu happen? No need for apologies! smile

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#401847 - 03/11/14 02:07 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Hellcommute]
Phaedrus Offline
regular

Registered: 03/07/14
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: Hellcommute
Tough one. Your amp is not your bottleneck here.... major sonic upgrades will need some investment in getting your room layout and speaker placement better, ie. getting the mains off of the wall and spaced better. The stair wall is creating a bad acoustic reflection that is no doubt coloring the sound and narrowing your soundstage. Investment probably not worth it with your current room config. smile


The stair wall is not ideal, but the layout is a small trade off compared to the gain in usability. You can see from the pictures below how awful it was before. Switching to that wall allowed me to use the storage room behind it as a hidden AV rack. And rotating the room allowed for a full sectional which really helped with the seating arrangements.

The YPAO does a pretty good job at balancing the room out.








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#401848 - 03/11/14 07:40 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 148
Usability is #1. Great pics, tricky space.

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#401864 - 03/12/14 05:55 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Hellcommute]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC


You can never have too much power. Going from an entry level Pioneer receiver to a dedicated Parasound multichannel amp made a significant difference in sound quality in my M60s. I'll never go back. Granted it depends on room size, how loud you like it, listening distance, etc. I can't see how one can not tell the difference in sound quality.
_________________________
M60|VP150|2xQS8|PSA XS30+Epik Empire|Pioneer Kuro 6010FD|PS3|Denon AVR-X4000|Parasound 5250v.2|

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#401865 - 03/12/14 07:54 AM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 148
^ I completely agree. I have had the same experience with 2 individual systems. Scratch my head when people cant hear a difference.

Phae, if you want to increase the dynamics of your system by spending little $ add acoustic panels. Room decay times will be reduced, so dynamic peaks are in and out without reverb. This adds to the punch of a soundtrack or song. You will also get tighter, more refined low frequencies. Then get your surrounds higher so they bath the seating area more evenly seat to seat. Hope this helps.

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#401873 - 03/12/14 02:15 PM Re: ADA-1000 for M22 on-wall 5.1 setup? [Re: Phaedrus]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1012
I don't hear a difference in amplification unless the amp is running at or beyond its design limit. That condition will be reached much sooner by a lower powered unit.

I have both a SS AVR & a lower powered Tube Amp for music only. I don't hear any difference in quality as long as they are driven within reason. Despite what the 'Tubies' say, I don't hear the claims of liquid highs, luscious mids & silky bass with a hint of cedar with overtones of honey. Both types sound the same to me with the same source material; however, 'toobz' are cool & I like being in the room with them basking in their glow.

Speakers make the biggest difference to me...

TAM

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