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#402717 - 04/09/14 01:02 AM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
If anyone has a serious question on the subject, I'm sure it will be addresses. We've been over this subject many times on this forum, though.
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#402725 - 04/09/14 10:14 AM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: pmbuko]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4519
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: pmbuko
If anyone has a serious question on the subject, I'm sure it will be addresses. We've been over this subject many times on this forum, though.


No, no, no.... We have not covered anything like this before. Or at least, never read any of the posts/information:

Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
...Apparently not many have read them...

...It doesn't matter how much you know i'm an Audio & Videophile...

This is for Audiophiles & Newbs alike to help eachother out. (Unless you are a 'Newb,' which everyone else is, and I will just be a total jerk to you.)


Ok, I *may* have added something to the end of that inside the ( )...
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#402749 - 04/09/14 02:24 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
wilwom Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 175
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
Settle down now Children were discussing: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment here only. Stick to the Topic.


reflect!

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#402796 - 04/10/14 07:53 AM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: wilwom]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
WPC

Not sure my financial adviser would recommend, but if it has enough power for decent headroom, sure. I'm not sold until BobKay gives his input though, that guy seems awesome.


Edited by Crimson Wrath (04/10/14 07:56 AM)
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#402841 - 04/11/14 10:43 AM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: fredk]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: fredk
OK, now seriously, what the heck would I do with 180 wpc all channels driven when most of the time my power draw is less than 2 watts to make my ears hurt? Well, if my name was Ian I could throw a party on my dock and play music for everyone on the lake, but its not and I can't.

I used to know all those numbers, but really, it doesn't matter. As long as I have a reasonable amount of power and I don't buy the cheapest receiver on the block I'm getting all the power I need for my system to sing.


You are partially correct you can listen to a Speaker at a moderate volume with only 1 Watt of power, however you need far more power for Theater like volume levels that we hope to achieve ourselves.
for example:

Axiom M60
SPL Anechoic 1w/1m(db): 87 dB

This means that with merely 1 Watt of power this speaker is able to achieve 87dB which is pretty decent. However most people like to listen a little louder. Like movie theaters who typically have a maximum SPL around 105dB. But I personally prefer a maximum SPL around 112dB which as you know every 6dB is a perceived Doubling in Sound to the human ear.

You have to double the input power to produce a 3 dB increase in sound output
(assuming the speaker is not reaching its limits).

Now to get more than 87dB from the M60 for example you will need an EXPONENTIAL amount of Power Output that FAR EXCEEDS a mere 1-Watt of power. Which is why a big Power Amp then becomes necessary to supply a huge amount of power as cleanly as possible without any distortion which may damage your speaker.

To get all the way up to what most Theaters are capable of at 105dB we would need about 128 Watts, and with my preferred listening volume of 112dB I would need an Amp that can output 512 Watts (See Link Below which uses a speaker with 85dB SPL). So as you can see you need an Amp with a lot of headroom to get your speakers to Full Potential. Keep in mind that All loudspeakers have a maximum power handling capability so keep this in mind when shopping for a Power Amp.

The only thing that wasn't discussed in this quick look was how when you add more than one speaker you get an Exponential growth in SPL. But without knowing how many speakers a particular person is using in their Home Theater I stuck to the basics with just one speaker.

"The key here is that in most or our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom. It's the distortion that makes it sound "loud" in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume, because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds "too loud."

The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels."



Sources: http://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/Supp...df?redirected=1

http://www.axiomaudio.com/power


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/11/14 11:09 AM)
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#402843 - 04/11/14 11:33 AM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Axiom M60
SPL Anechoic 1w/1m(db): 87 dB
Maximum Amplifier Power capability: 250Watts

So now we can see that the M60 has a Max SPL around 111dB in a Anechoic Chamber
when supplied it's Maximum Power capability.

This is why it's important for new people to the A/V world to understand Tech Specs, that way you can make an actual comparison to various A/V products and get the most out of your hard earned money.

This Forum is for educating newbs and going over the Fundamentals with the veterans so we can have a valuable discussion about A/V equipment.




Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/11/14 11:35 AM)
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#402846 - 04/11/14 12:02 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
This Forum is for educating newbs and going over the Fundamentals with the veterans so we can have a valuable discussion about A/V equipment


I think it is rude and presumptuous for you to assert what this forum is for.

Now, *maybe* you meant "this thread is intended...".

I also think your incessant use of the word "newbs" is pejorative.

Look, if you've actually gone through the 300,000 posts on the Axiom forum AND you've actually used the Search feature and you still feel like you have something valuable to add, please go ahead. To me, your posts seem to have the sole goal of demonstrating your superior intellect. It is off-putting. Most people know this stuff, or can find it either here or elsewhere.

I strongly suggest you start a blog.


Edited by tomtuttle (04/11/14 12:06 PM)
Edit Reason: removed image
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#402847 - 04/11/14 12:08 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
when you add more than one speaker you get an Exponential growth in SPL.


Disagree.
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#402848 - 04/11/14 12:32 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1272
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Alaskan teacher,
you wrote "and with my preferred listening volume of 112dB".

i thought that each music recording had its own realistic playback level ("live" level), and the volume must be adjusted accordingly in order to give a good representation, as if you were at the concert.

if i were to adjust for a max. vol. of 112 dBSPL at the MLP for my music or movies, then it would not give me a very realistic reproduction on the great majority of those discs.
some would not be loud enough and some would be much too loud.

i have some CDs or movies that need a vol level of 6 dB over Ref. Level, and others that need as little as Ref. Level -20 dB.

"just the right loudness" has to be found by experimenting and you know when you've found it because the instruments you're hearing sound exactly like they were just a few feet in front of you, or on the side...
the representation then is so true that if you close your eyes, you will think the performer is right in front of you in the concert hall, not in your A/V room.
not in your A/V room, because the acoustic ambiance in the recording helps in making one believe that you're not in your living room anymore, but in the concert hall.

that's what Hi-Fidelity to the original is: transport you to the best seat in the concert hall.

final notes: 1: you don't have to teach here, to an empty class, it's a lot of time lost for you. you would be better to wait until someone asks a question to which you have the necessary knowledge to give a good answer.

2: your mindset does not synchronize well with the type of forum we have here. Like Tom just said above, start a blog; that would surely help people more.


Edited by J. B. (04/11/14 12:38 PM)
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or: Axiom Gallery

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#402849 - 04/11/14 12:42 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1039
Alaska:

I agree that you can never have enough power; however, my wallet is just so big, ha!

I have a Denon 7.2 AVR that is completely adequate to drive my modest 5.2 speaker setup at -10 Db with most movies in my medium size room (2400 cu ft). Higher than that, it is just too loud & for me, unrealistic - distortion or not.

One way that modern AVRs sneakily gain headroom is through the judicious setting of the Channel Xovers that relieves the AVR from having to produce the current for bass frequencies. That significant load is carried by the LFE Channel & consequently the Subs' Amps.

While most use 80 Hz, I set 60 Hz for my L & R (M22s) & VP160 CC. Works great in my system...

TAM

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