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#402851 - 04/11/14 01:16 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Alaskan,
someone recently told me that the amps in my system total
around 9.4-9.5 Horsepower.
how can that be, and such low numbers too?

i thought that power was expressed in Watts for audio and HP for cars-trucks.

hope you can enlighten me!
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#402864 - 04/11/14 03:19 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: tomtuttle]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
when you add more than one speaker you get an Exponential growth in SPL.


Disagree.


You are wrong,
When you Double the number of speakers - increase of +3 dB
this is what's considered to be Exponential Growth,
because it is also the same increase as Double amplifier wattage - increase of +3 dB so by adding an additional speaker qualifies as such an Exponential Growth.

Source for newbs: http://www.globalrph.com/master_speaker.htm


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/11/14 03:19 PM)
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#402865 - 04/11/14 03:22 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: exlabdriver]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: exlabdriver
Alaska:

I agree that you can never have enough power; however, my wallet is just so big, ha!

I have a Denon 7.2 AVR that is completely adequate to drive my modest 5.2 speaker setup at -10 Db with most movies in my medium size room (2400 cu ft). Higher than that, it is just too loud & for me, unrealistic - distortion or not.

One way that modern AVRs sneakily gain headroom is through the judicious setting of the Channel Xovers that relieves the AVR from having to produce the current for bass frequencies. That significant load is carried by the LFE Channel & consequently the Subs' Amps.

While most use 80 Hz, I set 60 Hz for my L & R (M22s) & VP160 CC. Works great in my system...

TAM


Great point as I too use a 60hz Crossover for my Front Soundstage.
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#402867 - 04/11/14 03:28 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: J. B.]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: J. B.
Alaskan teacher,
you wrote "and with my preferred listening volume of 112dB".

i thought that each music recording had its own realistic playback level ("live" level), and the volume must be adjusted accordingly in order to give a good representation, as if you were at the concert.

if i were to adjust for a max. vol. of 112 dBSPL at the MLP for my music or movies, then it would not give me a very realistic reproduction on the great majority of those discs.
some would not be loud enough and some would be much too loud.

i have some CDs or movies that need a vol level of 6 dB over Ref. Level, and others that need as little as Ref. Level -20 dB.

"just the right loudness" has to be found by experimenting and you know when you've found it because the instruments you're hearing sound exactly like they were just a few feet in front of you, or on the side...
the representation then is so true that if you close your eyes, you will think the performer is right in front of you in the concert hall, not in your A/V room.
not in your A/V room, because the acoustic ambiance in the recording helps in making one believe that you're not in your living room anymore, but in the concert hall.

that's what Hi-Fidelity to the original is: transport you to the best seat in the concert hall.

final notes: 1: you don't have to teach here, to an empty class, it's a lot of time lost for you. you would be better to wait until someone asks a question to which you have the necessary knowledge to give a good answer.

2: your mindset does not synchronize well with the type of forum we have here. Like Tom just said above, start a blog; that would surely help people more.


Apparently your not aware of Receivers which tell you the dB off set by the input source.

For Example: When switching over to Directv on my Onkyo receiver it will tell me that
their is a 6dB off set for the source.

So to reach 112dB adjust volume accordingly. These are the BASICS.

Second I started this Thread and clearly have stated what Topics were to be discussed.
I'm not off topic in the least, perhaps you can visit the water cooler if you wish to discuss other Topics.

smile


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/11/14 03:33 PM)
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#402868 - 04/11/14 03:33 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
when you add more than one speaker you get an Exponential growth in SPL.


Disagree.


You are wrong,
When you Double the number of speakers - increase of +3 dB
this is what's considered to be Exponential Growth,
because it is also the same increase as Double amplifier wattage - increase of +3 dB so by adding an additional speaker qualifies as such an Exponential Growth.

Source for newbs: http://www.globalrph.com/master_speaker.htm


i never had a teacher in audio/video, but i thought (stupid me!) that an increase in dB was logarithmic; never heard of +3 dB to be "Exponential Growth". the two are immensely different.

this article might interest you Alaskan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel


Edited by J. B. (04/11/14 03:36 PM)
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#402870 - 04/11/14 03:38 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: J. B.]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Because a +3dB can be attained if you double your Amplifier Power this is Exponential Growth which is defined as:
Exponential growth occurs when the growth rate of the value of a mathematical function is proportional to the function's current value.

***(And because it's the same effect as Doubling the Amplifier Power it is Exponential Growth. Because you are essentially adding TWICE the power just by simply adding an additional speaker)***

And therefore my statement is Correct as is the rest of the Scientific FACTS that I have clearly linked to for people who are unaware of the FUNDAMENTALS.

This is exactly why I started this Forum Topic because even seasoned A/V people can forget the very Basics. Thanks for proving my point.

As it's apparent what my statement was implied to say, it seems that you are just trying to stir up a controversy for the way in which it was worded. In the future I shall adjust my literary comments to conform with your level of understanding, so I apologize if you didn't understand what was conveyed in my prior comments.


Source: http://www.globalrph.com/master_speaker.htm



Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/11/14 03:57 PM)
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#402872 - 04/11/14 04:05 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
when you add more than one speaker you get an Exponential growth in SPL.


Disagree.


You are wrong,
When you Double the number of speakers - increase of +3 dB
this is what's considered to be Exponential Growth,
because it is also the same increase as Double amplifier wattage - increase of +3 dB so by adding an additional speaker qualifies as such an Exponential Growth.

Source for newbs: http://www.globalrph.com/master_speaker.htm


I feel I must point out that you are wrong. The ear perceives loudness of sound, i.e. the acoustic energy transmitted by a sound pressure wave, in a logarithmic fashion, not an exponential one. (Yes, there is a difference.) The decibel scale is a logarithmic scale.

In case it's not clear, here are two charts for you. The first shows an exponential increase. The second shows a logarithmic increase.





Now that I have shown your understanding of a basic tenet of audio is flawed, how can any of us be sure the rest of your knowledge is sound?
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#402873 - 04/11/14 04:09 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: AlaskanAVGuy
Originally Posted By: J. B.
Alaskan teacher,
you wrote "and with my preferred listening volume of 112dB".

i thought that each music recording had its own realistic playback level ("live" level), and the volume must be adjusted accordingly in order to give a good representation, as if you were at the concert.

if i were to adjust for a max. vol. of 112 dBSPL at the MLP for my music or movies, then it would not give me a very realistic reproduction on the great majority of those discs.
some would not be loud enough and some would be much too loud.

i have some CDs or movies that need a vol level of 6 dB over Ref. Level, and others that need as little as Ref. Level -20 dB.

"just the right loudness" has to be found by experimenting and you know when you've found it because the instruments you're hearing sound exactly like they were just a few feet in front of you, or on the side...
the representation then is so true that if you close your eyes, you will think the performer is right in front of you in the concert hall, not in your A/V room.
not in your A/V room, because the acoustic ambiance in the recording helps in making one believe that you're not in your living room anymore, but in the concert hall.

that's what Hi-Fidelity to the original is: transport you to the best seat in the concert hall.

final notes: 1: you don't have to teach here, to an empty class, it's a lot of time lost for you. you would be better to wait until someone asks a question to which you have the necessary knowledge to give a good answer.

2: your mindset does not synchronize well with the type of forum we have here. Like Tom just said above, start a blog; that would surely help people more.


Apparently your not aware of Receivers which tell you the dB off set by the input source.

For Example: When switching over to Directv on my Onkyo receiver it will tell me that
their is a 6dB off set for the source.

So to reach 112dB adjust volume accordingly. These are the BASICS.

Second I started this Thread and clearly have stated what Topics were to be discussed.
I'm not off topic in the least, perhaps you can visit the water cooler if you wish to discuss other Topics.

smile



THAT wasn't an answer to my post.
what i wrote is at the heart of good reproduction, and you said nothing about it, and what you wrote isn't very clear; i still don't know how to set the volume level for a recording so the max. SPL will be 112 dBSPL.

do you check the offset and then compensate with the vol. level and bingo! you have 112 dB max somewhere in the recording?

please enlighten me, teacher.
as a teacher, you should make certain that your writings are short, precise and clear so the "newbs" will understand.

imagine for an instant that you're listening to a piccolo and the vol. level has been set so the max. will be at 112 dB. Phew!
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#402874 - 04/11/14 04:10 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: pmbuko]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
As I have already stated above you must have missed what I was referring to. Which is Exponential Growth of Power, as it takes TWICE as much POWER to have +3dB gain.

Use reading comprehension to try and understand the point I was making as you too are trying to manipulate the manner and meaning of what I intended to convey to the reader. I thought that this was clear but apparently some need help in understanding my meaning.

Why would I say that adding another speaker would Double the output...It will only add +3dB.

But nice graph i'm glad you used this although it is pointless because it takes about 10 Times as much POWER to Double sound.

Next smile

Source: http://www.globalrph.com/master_speaker.htm


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/11/14 04:12 PM)
_________________________
The Teacher is in: Trust but Verify

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#402875 - 04/11/14 04:22 PM Re: Understanding Tech Specs on A/V Equipment [Re: AlaskanAVGuy]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1269
Loc: Quebec, Canada
there are many errors on that site's page; same for your writings, teacher.
because it's written somewhere doesn't mean it's right.

this will be my last post on this topic, my cat is barking at the monitor.

;-)
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