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#404945 - 06/01/14 09:16 AM My receiver is clipping at high volumes!
jhas Offline
regular

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 6
Dilemma.... My setup is M60v1, QS8s, and a new VP-160 v4, Ep-500 5.1 system

My last receiver was a Pioneer Elite VSX-23TXH and I experienced clipping with that receiver. Ended up being one of the M60s that was replaced by AxiomAudio.
4 years later we upgrade to a new VP-160 and I upgrade my receiver to a Pioneer Elite
SC-77.

Watching a Elton John concert on BD, bang.. auto shutdown.......ran it in stereo mode loud and no SD. Hooked up center and one M60 and ran in stereo mode loud.....no shutdown. Re checked all wires...zero problems. Did notice in the setup my setting for center channel was "Large" along with the fronts. Rears are in "small". I changed center to "small". Cranked a music Dvd in surround and no problem at 0.00 db
Watched the Hobbit last night at a decent volume....Bang....auto shutdown twice mad

Is it the Pioneer that can't handle Axiom's impedance???? Guess I will return it to Bestbuy and try a Marantz 7008

Techies I need help!

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#404948 - 06/01/14 09:36 AM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Set the M60's to "Small" as well with an 80hz crossover.

Perhaps limiting the full range output on the m60 by limiting it's bandwidth from 20hz-80hz by setting them to small might be the last piece of the puzzle. This might help your receiver not shutdown with highly dynamic content at high output.

_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#404949 - 06/01/14 09:42 AM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13341
Loc: Iowa
yes, if you have a sub in the mix, set the mains and center to small with about an 80hz crossove. It is rare that the m60's would case this issue being an 8ohm design.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#404950 - 06/01/14 09:45 AM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Hi and welcome to the forums!

The Pioneer Elites have a good reputation around here. I haven't tried one myself but looked up the specifications and it is rated to drive 4 ohm loads.

It could be that you're simply asking too much of it to play at reference level in your room.

The Marantz that you mentioned has about the same power rating but is not listed as able to drive a 4 ohm load. I would guess that if you are having problems with the Class D amps in the Pioneer Elite you have more chance of problems with the Marantz.

Your Pioneer Elite has pre outs so a better option and what I would recommend is to get an external amp to drive the front channels (or at least L and R). This would leave more receiver power available for the remaining channels.

Decent 2 or 3 channel amps can be obtained used for under $1000. New might be more but some such as Axiom's own ADA1250 or ADA1500 are in my opinion also a good long term buy.

Good luck!

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#404951 - 06/01/14 10:06 AM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: cohesion]
jhas Offline
regular

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 6
I will try to set the mains to "small" and see what happens......

Would/could you Bi-amp the mains? The center? Since I am only using 5 channels of the 9 available. Not sure that would help since the receiver is having a load issue. You would think it could handle +4.0 on the power meter. Issues started again with the new VP-160........my old VP-150v1 could handle it on my older receiver. I upgraded because I felt the sound from the center was "muted" low when watching movies.

Could it be the VP-160, even though it worked fine in stereo mode?

Thanks again....

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#404952 - 06/01/14 10:21 AM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: jhas
I will try to set the mains to "small" and see

Could it be the VP-160, even though it worked fine in stereo mode?



Setting the M60's to small might just be enough for your centre and surrounds to play in harmony with that receiver at high output.

_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#404953 - 06/01/14 11:15 AM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 188
Loc: Oakville, Canada
What I have done is gone for an older model Pioneer SC-1227k as it has the pre-out's and bought a better quality used 5x200w channel power amp.
Now I am getting the LFR's so I will drive just the front 3 channels with my power amp, and leave the rears for the receiver. I gave up the THX, but I might swap my 3 year old THX 1126k unit for downstairs as it has the 12v trigger that would be nice for the amp.
_________________________
Matt

People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#404954 - 06/01/14 01:14 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Welcome to the Axiom forum Jhas. Thermal shutdown is the most common reason for an amp to stop working. Make sure you have plenty of space around your amp. You could try placing a fan on the receiver as a test. The Axiom M60's and VP160 are both 8ohm nominal impedance which should present no problem to the receiver so it may be you got a defective unit. How large is your room ? I have M80s and a self made version of the VP160 and my Denon AVR3311 had no trouble driving them to high levels full range so I suspect something is amiss here.

Richard
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#404956 - 06/01/14 02:06 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: Socketman]
jhas Offline
regular

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 6
Appreciate the response....

The receiver sits in a open stand with plenty of air flow. My settings while watching the movie last night was -9.5. Loud, but not to loud..... In the music DVD mode I cranked it to -2.0 and had it clip. Still need to switch to small fronts and experiment.
Magnolia salesperson is coming over to insure I have it setup correctly. Ha!

The room is an "A" frame cabin with tall ceilings. Mains are 7 ft to listener position and the rears above the listener at 7ft high. Hopefully it is the receiver........

Thanks

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#404959 - 06/01/14 03:20 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
M60's are a really easy load.

I don't think bi-amping or bi-wiring is going to do ANYTHING for you since you'd still be pulling from the same power supply.

I bet the Magnolia guy blames the speakers.

External amplification - maybe pro style amps - would be better than a different receiver if your current model has pre-outs.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#404961 - 06/01/14 04:01 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
All the speakers you are using like most other manufacturers are standard 8 ohm spec. so it is not as if they are M80s or the other large models that spec. down to lower resistance. Sounds a little strange and perhaps you are playing them VERY loudly over an extended period so just maybe it's time for an outboard power amp. Even though I am using a Pre-Pro with separate power amps even prior to this with AVR's at high volumes, I have never encountered the shutdown issue you have experienced.

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#404964 - 06/01/14 04:17 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Originally Posted By: jhas
Appreciate the response....

The receiver sits in a open stand with plenty of air flow. My settings while watching the movie last night was -9.5. Loud, but not to loud..... In the music DVD mode I cranked it to -2.0 and had it clip. Still need to switch to small fronts and experiment.
Magnolia salesperson is coming over to insure I have it setup correctly. Ha!

The room is an "A" frame cabin with tall ceilings. Mains are 7 ft to listener position and the rears above the listener at 7ft high. Hopefully it is the receiver........

Thanks


Jhas, setting up a fan is a simple and quick way to eliminate heat as a possibility. It amazes me that receivers only use passive cooling. They , like computers create a lot of heat. Perhaps you have a mechanic friend who has a infrared thermometer you can borrow. I own one and it is handy to have, I use it to check temps on my computers etc. Heat is the enemy and it works quietly and slowly.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#404974 - 06/01/14 10:23 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10405
JH, welcome. The first point is that although you use the term "clipping", the problem that you describe has nothing to do with that; shutting down is an entirely separate issue. If the similar problem four years ago was corrected with a replacement M60(did you learn what the exact problem with it was?), the Pioneer receiver obviously wasn't the culprit.

Now you've added the VP-160 and a new Pioneer and a similar problem has re-appeared. The Axioms have no unusual impedance characteristic that the Pioneers(and other similar receivers)can't handle with ease if the speakers aren't defective. Since the VP-160 caused no problem when it was connected as one of the two mains in stereo, it appears that it's okay.

One of the most common causes of a receiver shutting down isn't some design inadequacy but rather a problem in the external wiring which causes an intermittent short. Although you say that you "re checked" the wiring, did you actually disconnect and very carefully redo the wiring to make sure that there wasn't a loose strand which could make contact, or did you just inspect it. If you haven't done this, it should be done and has corrected many mysterious shut downs in the past. Obviously the new receiver required making new connections which could be causing the issue.

Your equipment is fine and should have no overheating or other problem at the moderately loud levels(e.g., -9.5)which you mention.

Regardless of the present problem, you should make full use of your excellent EP-500 sub by setting all speakers "small" with a crossover of perhaps 80Hz, so that the EP-500 can do what you paid for.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#404978 - 06/02/14 02:22 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: JohnK]
Crimson Wrath Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 86
Loc: NC
Already said, but if the other solutions don't work for you regarding wiring and crossover settings, if able, get a separate amp. You'll most likely notice a difference in the fullness of sound and will be happy that you made the upgrade.
_________________________
M60|VP150|2xQS8|PSA XS30+Epik Empire|Pioneer Kuro 6010FD|PS3|Denon AVR-X4000|Parasound 5250v.2|

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#404992 - 06/03/14 03:45 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5914
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I'm late to this conversation, but oh well.

I've used 2 differ Pioneer Elites. Currently have 2 M22's connected to both mains, and an M22 plus a VP160 connected to the center channel. This lowers the OHM value tremendously for all 3 of the fronts. I've never experienced any trouble.

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#405090 - 06/05/14 12:30 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: CatBrat]
jhas Offline
regular

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 6
Finally home to check all those ideas......
Changed the receiver to "large" on the fronts and small on center.
Center is -2.5 along with the mains.
Cranked up a meatloaf concert from Australia and worked my way to +1.5 lasted 3 minutes.

SHUTDOWN

Changed settings to all "small" and ran it at +1.0 for 20 minutes with NO shutdown

All wires across the front were replaced and re-connected before the experiment began.

Spend some time this weekend to be sure, but my final thoughts are the receiver
Can't have the mains set to large and crank it into the +1 to +5 range
Just weird because my older elite could handle it.

Cheers

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#405092 - 06/05/14 12:55 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4516
Loc: Marion, IA
If you have a sub, then you generally want all other speakers set to small anyway. If you are listening to 2-channel music, then you should only be driving those front 2 channels (I know that is sounds redundant, but some people miss the obvious. LOL) and then they can be set to large. Then you aren't driving a center, surrounds, or sub (yeah, yeah, I know... The sub is more of a "line out" vs power.)
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#405107 - 06/05/14 05:45 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Nick, there are more discs coming out all the time with 7 channel music on them and for some reason many people like to listen to 7 channel stereo , which is what its called on my Yamaha. I am a purist and believe 2 channel is the correct way though I do use the sub to carry the bass. I have on occasion listened to 5 channel stereo and it does sound good but something tells me its just wrong LOL. Either the draw is more than the amp in the receiver can handle or its thermal shutdown. Shorted cables would cause it to shut down immediately.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405108 - 06/05/14 06:58 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: jhas
Finally home to check all those ideas......
Changed the receiver to "large" on the fronts and small on center.
Center is -2.5 along with the mains.
Cranked up a meatloaf concert from Australia and worked my way to +1.5 lasted 3 minutes.

SHUTDOWN

Changed settings to all "small" and ran it at +1.0 for 20 minutes with NO shutdown

All wires across the front were replaced and re-connected before the experiment began.

Spend some time this weekend to be sure, but my final thoughts are the receiver
Can't have the mains set to large and crank it into the +1 to +5 range
Just weird because my older elite could handle it.

Cheers


That's good news. Your initial findings say you don't need to spend any additional money on external amps.

I think the M60's when played full range the midrange tries to play down as low and loud (as it possibly can) along with the bass drivers and your receiver doesn't like that at higher output.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#405114 - 06/05/14 10:25 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
jhas Offline
regular

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 6
Bad news......
I agree that a shorted speaker cable would happen at a nominal output.
Watching Lone Survivor on DVD, and it shutdown 3 times at a normal listening levels.

Back to Bestbuy it goes.........

The saga continues!

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#405116 - 06/05/14 10:36 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Everything man made is fallible , manufacturer's allow for this when pricing a product. Best buy is usually quite accommodating so I don't see that you will have any troubles.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#405300 - 06/10/14 12:36 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: Socketman]
jhas Offline
regular

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 6
OK.......
The plan is to check each speaker separately for any issues. First up, the brand new
VP-160 on the center channel. Crank it up and sit back and listen.....
First observation is it sounds very muffled.....not clean what so ever.....
2 minutes in at +1.5. CLIP!
Next up my left M60 on the same center channel. Wow now that sounds good...
Ran it for 20 minutes at +1.5 .....no problems

There you have it, a bad VP-160 is the bloody culprit......

Happy ending will be when I receive my new from AxiomAudio

Thanks to all!

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#405323 - 06/10/14 09:41 PM Re: My receiver is clipping at high volumes! [Re: jhas]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Glad to hear you got it figured out and let everyone know . Shipping can raise hell with electronics of all kinds. Ive move a computer from one room to another and had it give me hell. Keep us up to speed once you get your new speaker


Richard
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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