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#406335 - 07/25/14 09:54 PM M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11236
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
M3 v4 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers

Just starting a thread since I'm surprised no one else did.

The ceiling in my basement is too low, but maybe I'll end up with some of these at some point just because. I'd love to have a room that would make sense for Dolby Atmos, but these might work better than the Algonquins I bought for the bathroom if I decide I want more storage options on the walls.

In any case, it's a product I'm glad they made, even if I have no immediate use for them.

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#406336 - 07/25/14 10:07 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I would like to see more pics of this. Where exactly are they hiding the tweet.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#406337 - 07/25/14 10:17 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
In the newsletter, it says it's a coaxial tweeter, basically. It's held in front of the woofer.
_________________________
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#406340 - 07/26/14 02:00 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1204
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Ah , I didn't get the memo . Usually we get some advanced tidbits ,this is totally out of character. I did post about 4 weeks back asking about atmos based speakers. Here

Never did get a reply but they were obviously in the works.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#406341 - 07/26/14 02:16 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: Socketman]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11236
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Socketman
I would like to see more pics of this. Where exactly are they hiding the tweet.


A few pics here.

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#406383 - 07/29/14 09:55 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Brent told me that they were in the works a couple of months ago when I mentioned that I was looking to get some for a games room which I wanted to wire up for surround sound for playing video games. However, there were no sign of them when I went up to Axiom to pick up my new LFR's. It is certainly good that they are now available!

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#406387 - 07/29/14 01:30 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5912
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I think they come pre-packaged with elevator music.

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#406393 - 07/30/14 12:54 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1090
I can't wait to hear the difference concentric makes.
I wonder what else is in the works.
_________________________
"Don't panic" they say...

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#406396 - 07/30/14 08:22 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Rew452 Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 2
Really glad to see the Atmos speakers from you!

But Really need On-Ceiling type, like the M3 On-Wall.

Are they too in the works?

Wayne

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#406397 - 07/30/14 02:25 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6863
Loc: PEI, Canada
They will no doubt be popular with the headbanger crowd.

Sorry, couldn't resist....
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#406399 - 07/31/14 09:49 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Rew452 Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 2
Ha! Ha! Good one.

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#406476 - 08/08/14 10:59 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
Waiting on my pair. Starting the home theater over from scratch. Gonna go with an Atmos capable AVR.

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#406478 - 08/08/14 12:39 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
Maybe someday I will jump on these speakers and do an Atmos setup, but I am not ready to scrap my decent receiver for a $1200+ Atmos ready one, and toss another $800 with of speakers into the room. My wife would absolutely kill me, plus it just isn't in the "responsible" cards right now.

Starting from scratch sure opens up some possibilities, especially with the lower introduction price until August 11. Of course, if you are going to pay a premium for the receiver already to get Atmos, why not go with 4 in-ceilings for the optimum experience?
_________________________
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#406481 - 08/08/14 01:24 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: nickbuol]
Hansang Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 582
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Maybe someday I will jump on these speakers and do an Atmos setup, but I am not ready to scrap my decent receiver for a $1200+ Atmos ready one, and toss another $800 with of speakers into the room. My wife would absolutely kill me, plus it just isn't in the "responsible" cards right now.

Starting from scratch sure opens up some possibilities, especially with the lower introduction price until August 11. Of course, if you are going to pay a premium for the receiver already to get Atmos, why not go with 4 in-ceilings for the optimum experience?


Nick, that's what accidental power surges are for! smile

"I really don't want to spend more money honey...but we took a hit and what can we do?"

LOL
_________________________
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Denon 3808, EPIC80/500 Speakers

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#406482 - 08/08/14 01:25 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Hansang Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 582
Loc: New York
Guess I need to change my .sig to say 4520 and not 3808!
_________________________
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Denon 3808, EPIC80/500 Speakers

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#406484 - 08/08/14 10:04 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: Hansang]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: Hansang
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Maybe someday I will jump on these speakers and do an Atmos setup, but I am not ready to scrap my decent receiver for a $1200+ Atmos ready one, and toss another $800 with of speakers into the room. My wife would absolutely kill me, plus it just isn't in the "responsible" cards right now.

Starting from scratch sure opens up some possibilities, especially with the lower introduction price until August 11. Of course, if you are going to pay a premium for the receiver already to get Atmos, why not go with 4 in-ceilings for the optimum experience?


Nick, that's what accidental power surges are for! smile

"I really don't want to spend more money honey...but we took a hit and what can we do?"

LOL


Good point... Thanks!
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#406486 - 08/09/14 12:51 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: rprice54]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11236
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: rprice54
Waiting on my pair. Starting the home theater over from scratch. Gonna go with an Atmos capable AVR.


Keep us in the loop on how it goes!

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#406488 - 08/09/14 06:51 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Andrew Jones concentric speakers with the bandwidth limited up-firing driver or a variation of that type of setup is the only way Dolby Atmos is coming into my home. There is a 0% chance of even the idea of punching holes in the ceiling for speakers.
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#406894 - 08/29/14 12:14 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1038
I continue to read from the 'experts' on some other forums who continue to trash horizontal CC speakers because of supposed comb filtering & lobing problems with these designs. IMO these anomalies are minimal at best in most HT rooms but they are a big & nasty deal for some.

I wonder if the technology that Axiom has developed in the M3 Ceilings with co-located drivers could be implemented into a smallish cabinet for yet another CC speaker that would be more easily placed into many HT Stands (like the VP100) vs the large cabinets above that model. Would this design largely eliminate these perceived problems?...

TAM

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#406900 - 08/29/14 07:06 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: exlabdriver]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1090
Originally Posted By: exlabdriver
I continue to read from the 'experts' on some other forums who continue to trash horizontal CC speakers because of supposed comb filtering & lobing problems with these designs. IMO these anomalies are minimal at best in most HT rooms but they are a big & nasty deal for some.

I wonder if the technology that Axiom has developed in the M3 Ceilings with co-located drivers could be implemented into a smallish cabinet for yet another CC speaker that would be more easily placed into many HT Stands (like the VP100) vs the large cabinets above that model. Would this design largely eliminate these perceived problems?...

TAM


In theory, if you're only using 1 driver?

Curious what some of those haters are going to say when they work more speakers into their systems when upgrading to Atmos, Auro, UHD, etc.

It would seem to me that its a non issue in all but the largest rooms (which you'd expect to have matching front speakers).

I really like the concept and the potential of the new in ceiling M3.
_________________________
"Don't panic" they say...

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#406939 - 09/01/14 06:16 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
cybrsage Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/01/14
Posts: 1
I would love to have angled driver On-Ceiling mounted speakers - I really do not want to cut into my sound silencing barrier.

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#406961 - 09/03/14 06:55 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
any word on shipping? I ordered mine back in July...

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#407095 - 09/09/14 01:29 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1090
I guess I'm going to do it. The sound barrier is going get a few new holes, hopefully in time for my 2 weeks off at Christmas.
I can't go all Atmos, the bill is too much right now (baby in Nov.)but 5.1 sounds really good so I'm going to install a pair in the top front locations with my current AVR.
I drew it out tonight and was shocked to see the in ceilings will be the same distance from my ears as my surrounds when installed as recommended by dolby.
Ceiling height be dammed...
_________________________
"Don't panic" they say...

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#407243 - 09/16/14 05:19 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11236
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
As low as my basement ceiling is (6' 7", generally) I don't see being able to use the M3 in-ceiling speakers for Atmos.

From here:

Quote:
Will I always get better Dolby Atmos sound with overhead
speakers?

Dolby Atmos enabled speakers produce slightly diffuse overhead audio that is quite lifelike and, in some cases, preferable to the sound that comes from overhead speakers.

If your ceiling is low or you have to mount your loudspeakers on overhead trusses or brackets, the overhead speakers will be closer to the listening position. The audio may be distracting because you’ll hear exactly which speaker is producing the sound instead of feeling immersed in an atmosphere in which sounds occur naturally overhead.

In this environment, Dolby Atmos enabled speakers may better reproduce the Dolby Atmos sound you would hear in a movie theatre, where the overhead speakers are high in the auditorium, creating a more diffuse experience. Audio experts who have heard Dolby Atmos enabled speakers agree that the sound these produce can be preferable to the sound that
overhead speakers produce.


I don't really want Dolby Atmos enabled speakers, either, since it means switching my ceiling tiles back to something reflective as opposed to absorptive. Since the sound from the ceiling speakers are supposed to be somewhat diffuse as described, I wonder if Axiom could come up with a model for people in my situation. Low ceiling, still wanting the Atmos experience without resorting to the Atmos enabled compromise. Even better for me, specifically, would be 2'x2' panels pre-made for mounting the speakers in and dropping into a standard suspended ceiling grid.

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#407246 - 09/16/14 06:55 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
Charles, I think the only reasonable answer is for you to dig the basement a good 2-4 feet deeper, then replace everything you have in it.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#407248 - 09/16/14 07:39 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6863
Loc: PEI, Canada
If he did that, the alligator pit would have no walls and they would be free to roam. You didn't think this through.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#407252 - 09/16/14 07:58 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10941
Loc: Central NH
Think of the extra exercise afforded by such a setup!
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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#407253 - 09/16/14 08:00 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
Mine shipped last Monday. Still stuck in customs...

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#407262 - 09/16/14 01:48 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
FYI. General statement but, "Atmos Enabled" speakers are actually manufactured to meet a higher set of specifications specifically for Dolby Atmos than regular speakers mounted in/on your ceiling. Not that you can't get better speakers that work on the ceiling, but there isn't much in the way of "needs to meet these Atmos specs" out there. I heard A/B/C demos of 7.1, 7.1.4 with ceiling speakers, and 7.1.4 with Atmos enabled. Couldn't really tell much difference in the good ceiling speakers vs. the Atmos Enabled, but like mentioned above, you need a reflective and flat ceiling.

Height does not HAVE to be 8' and the Dolby guys at CEDIA mentioned that they wished that they left that minimum spec out. It will just be less effective the lower the ceiling, but they said that around 7' you start to lose effectiveness. 6'7" will be tricky.
_________________________
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#407368 - 09/21/14 11:23 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: nickbuol]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1090
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
FYI. General statement but, "Atmos Enabled" speakers are actually manufactured to meet a higher set of specifications specifically for Dolby Atmos than regular speakers mounted in/on your ceiling. Not that you can't get better speakers that work on the ceiling, but there isn't much in the way of "needs to meet these Atmos specs" out there. I heard A/B/C demos of 7.1, 7.1.4 with ceiling speakers, and 7.1.4 with Atmos enabled. Couldn't really tell much difference in the good ceiling speakers vs. the Atmos Enabled, but like mentioned above, you need a reflective and flat ceiling.

Height does not HAVE to be 8' and the Dolby guys at CEDIA mentioned that they wished that they left that minimum spec out. It will just be less effective the lower the ceiling, but they said that around 7' you start to lose effectiveness. 6'7" will be tricky.


Nick,

During the Atmos demos did anyone comment on aiming tweeters when ceiling height was less than ideal?
The earliest information provided by Dolby suggested speakers should fire straight down.


Edited by brwsaw (09/21/14 11:27 PM)
_________________________
"Don't panic" they say...

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#407402 - 09/23/14 08:22 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
My ceiling M3s finally showed up. Hoping to try them out tomorrow or the next. You can tell its a new product- no manual. Looks pretty straightforward though, once I figured out how to remove the grill. Feels very substantial for a plastic enclosed speaker. I bought these for an Atmos setup. I'm considering these for the surrounds as well.


Edited by rprice54 (09/23/14 08:22 PM)

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#407403 - 09/23/14 11:19 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1090
I really like the idea of using 34 of them in a Atmos layout.
Its growing on me.
_________________________
"Don't panic" they say...

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#407486 - 09/29/14 02:38 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
Okay, got a chance to compare these a bit to my outdoor M3s. This was the easiest/quickest way I could do a direct A/B comparison. This is not high end audio equip, this is my shop music system. Cheapo Sony AVR, two outdoor M3s (v4), and a cheap 10" sub. The M3s are the most expensive part of the setup. I'm NOT an audiophile, but I like my Axiom speakers (M60s/VP150/EP500 previously) and can appreciate how much better they sound compared to others I tried. I figured the plastic outdoor speakers would be a good comparison to the plastic ceiling speakers.

I have these on a shelf, about 6' up, about 8' apart, and I stood about 10' from the speakers in the center. I used some music from Fireflight, a Christian metal band, with a female (breathy) vocalist and some classical accompaniment, which gave me a wide range of sounds to compare in just a couple of songs. (this is way overkill for ceiling speakers isn't it?).

Trial 1- speakers set to large, sub off. Here the ported regular M3s obviously won with lower end punch. Vocals were still very clear and airy (listen to me [sarcasm]) and the imaging always amazes me. It's like she's singing directly in front of me, I'm looking there, and my eyes don't see a speaker, but my ears and brain tell me she's right in the middle. I was curious how the different tweeter would compare, and it was maybe just a hair less 'real' sounding compared to the regular M3s, but the difference in the vocals was very subtle. The tell, though, was the much more anemic low end- understandably so without a port. Not much punch at all. There was also a good deal of 'plastic' sounding tone with the lower end. I imagine this would go away once these were mounted in a ceiling. Admittedly these were not made to just sit on a bookshelf, so I really can't hold that against them.

Trial 2- set speakers to small, sub on, crossover about 80 (dial on the back of the sub goes from 40-240 without any other marks, so I do my best to get it around 80). Here it was nearly impossible to tell any difference between the two. The plastic tone was gone. The regular M3s still sounded a bit fuller, vocals were more 'real', but I could easily listen to the ceiling speakers in that setup on a regular basis sitting on a shelf. The sound was MUCH closer to the regular M3s with the sub.

So there you go, a very unprofessional review of the new speakers. I think they will do great for my use, overheads in an Atmos setup and will complement my other speakers well. I don't think anyone would use these for main speakers unless you just had to with WAF. Now I just need to decide if I use these for the surrounds as well or in-wall M3s or on wall M3s...

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#407487 - 09/29/14 05:07 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 264
Loc: PEI, Canada
Just to note, the frequency response on the low end will change significantly once they are ceiling mounted. The "plastic" tone could have been caused by vibration- again remedied by mounting. Its hard to do an apples to apples comparison if they are not on the same plane I know. blush

Great review and comparison for us! Thanks. cool

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#407675 - 10/17/14 11:32 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 264
Loc: PEI, Canada
Did you get a chance to mount them up yet? I am considering my choices and wonder what you thought about the mounting process and how the sound changed. If they still seem to fall off at 70ish hz I'll check out other options I guess. Pics?

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#407676 - 10/17/14 12:23 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
I have not. Drywall crew finished today. I won't have any time off until next week to try them out, and right now it's a big echo chamber with 4 walks and concrete floor.

I'm confident they will work as surrounds/tops supported by a subwoofer. I think you would not ideally use these as front L and R main speakers. I get the impression they aren't designed for that anyways.

I went with on wall M3s for surrounds and these for overheads. I couldn't put them in the walls where I wanted for surrounds due to structural supports that couldn't be easily moved.

Once I get the room a little more finished I'll compare the ceilings to the on walls.

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#407677 - 10/17/14 04:41 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 264
Loc: PEI, Canada
Gotcha. Thanks for the update. I'm looking to use them as the atmos component (like you I think) of a 7.2.4 setup. Anxious to see what you think once your room is finished. I'm months away from Drywall the way things are going so no biggie.

Thanks for your response!

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#407928 - 11/01/14 10:35 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
Got a start on painting these bad boys. Using an airbrush and my ceiling color. Two light coats tonight. Hoping to get them installed next week assuming I can get the rest of the room painted this week.




Edited by rprice54 (11/01/14 10:39 PM)

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#407945 - 11/03/14 09:43 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
newf Offline
devotee

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 360
I have been considering these as well for atmos but I am unsure of if I should wait and see if there are options specifically for Atmos whereas these seem to be just ceiling speakers. I am thinking these would be the obvious choice with the rest of my Axiom setup though. They do seem to be priced high considering they have no cabinet though.

Was hoping more people would have tried these for Atmos.
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#407947 - 11/03/14 10:30 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
They are fully enclosed in the back, but they are not ideal for Atmos. They need to be able to be angled towards the listener instead of pointing straight down.
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#407949 - 11/04/14 10:17 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
My understanding is that they only need to be angled if they fall outside of the recommended listening angles. They may not be 'ideal' Atmos but I wanted something that would match all my other Axiom drivers.

Hoping to get the ceiling painted tonight and I'll install them and give them a try. The room will be functional minus acoustic treatments next week. I'll have a better idea how they sound as a part of an Atmos system.

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#407950 - 11/04/14 11:33 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
Dolby specifically recommends angled speakers for overhead though, so I just thought I would comment about it. When I was at CEDIA, the question came up several times at various booths, and I specifically talked to one of the Dolby "engineers" (not sure if they really send engineers, but he seemed knowledgeable) and he too told me that they should be slightly angled towards the middle of your listening area. If you have 4 speakers, then they form a "box" just outside of your seating area, and the speakers angle towards the middle of that seating area. Straight down was "less than ideal," whatever that means.

I have two different "less than ideal" issues for me. My ceiling is less than 8 feet tall, and I don't have direct radiating surround speakers. Both are "less than ideal."

I agree that matching the speaker drivers is super critical too for a consistent effect though.
_________________________
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#407952 - 11/04/14 08:13 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11236
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Maybe Axiom can make a box to mount the M3 In-Ceilings in that will allow easy angling of the speakers? It might be at significant extra cost, but it would be nice to have the option.

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#407954 - 11/04/14 10:18 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: nickbuol]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1090
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Dolby specifically recommends angled speakers for overhead though


Where?
In the Dolby specs I've read this is only true if the speaker doesn't cover the listening area.

There's lots of people only stating otherwise but that doesn't make it true.

From pages 7 and 8 of Dolby's installation guide released in Sept.

"Most high-power, full-frequency conventional overhead speakers with wide dispersion characteristics will work in a Dolby Atmos home theater."

&

"If the chosen overhead speakers have a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider), then speakers may be mounted facing directly downward. For speakers with narrower dispersion patterns, those with aimable or angled elements should be angled toward the primary listening position."


Edited by brwsaw (11/04/14 10:23 PM)
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#407955 - 11/04/14 10:50 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
It came straight from the Dolby "engineers" at CEDIA, and was specifically a talking point when they talked about "proper overhead speaker placement." Their demo, which you would sure think would be all about proper setup, had overhead speakers angled inward. The idea as they put it is that it creates more of a "dome" of sound, vs. a "box" with speakers pointing straight down.

Get out your time machine and meet me at CEDIA. Bring an audio recording device (cameras were only "allowed" for press, although I snuck some photos) and you can hear it and document it yourself. I documented it in my "right after CEDIA" comments in different threads here and elsewhere. I pointed out specifically that Axiom's In-Ceiling M3s don't angle like Dolby recommends.

It isn't like I am making this stuff up. shocked Keep in mind though that these things were stated at CEDIA a few days before anything was written up for their website downloads or datasheets. They already were backpedaling on their "8 foot - 14 foot ceiling" requirement stating that it is more about filling a sound field than being specifically in that ceiling height range. Maybe their final print says otherwise, but just like the 8ft - 14ft "requirement," if they ever revise it and remove that requirement doesn't mean that 8ft-14ft isn't ideal or what they designed for. Maybe the angled speaker piece was like that and they didn't want to alienate people who want to buy speakers that can't angle, or for people with ceilings less than 8ft or greater than 14ft.
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#407956 - 11/04/14 11:52 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
I wonder if an Axiom folks can comment on the 'wide dispersion pattern' of these speakers. Mine are each about 30 degrees front and back which are within the white paper specs.

It wouldn't be super hard to make a wedge shaped disc that you could rotate around to aim these. I'm Going to see how they sound 'as is.'

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#407958 - 11/05/14 07:59 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 264
Loc: PEI, Canada
I wasnt at CEDIA, But

In a couple of webcasts recapping the CEDIA event they talked about straight down vs angled atmos implementation.

Straight down caused hot spots directly under the speakers in the listening room and dead spots on the further side away. Central seating was the exception obviously.

The concensus was the best ATMOS demo at the show was the Golden Ear setup, by Sandy Gross. (Founder of Polk, Definitive tech and now Golden Ear.) considered even better than Dolby's own! laugh In a recent HTGeeks podcast he explained why all speakers need to be angled towards the MLP slightly to create a uniform soundfield, Specifically ATMOS setups. He goes into some detail about the choices made in their demo room.

It seems the best final arrangement is a blend of science and artful placement. Fodder for us to scrutinize until ATMOS is properly vetted in homes.

Here is the vid:


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#407959 - 11/05/14 10:16 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
While GoldenEar's demo was REALLY good (better than even ones that I flagged ahead of time as being the "must experience" demos), the best absolutely went to another group. Lyngdorf Steinway hands down had THE best demo of all of them. Of course, when you have $126,000 (dealer cost, NOT retail) in speakers and audio processing, it better be good.

Even at the Dolby booth, they were telling people about the Lyngdorf Steinway demo. In a few on-site discussions, L/S came up as "WOW, did you experience that demo?" At the AVS after party, L/S was mentioned as a favorite, with GoldenEar second. I guess if you factor in price, maybe GoldenEar's demo WAS the best after all. grin

But yes, for people with real budgets (even though GoldenEar isn't inexpensive), I would agree that they had arguably the 2nd best demo there overall, and maybe the best when price was factored in.
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#407960 - 11/05/14 10:27 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
That's A lot of M3's!

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#407964 - 11/05/14 11:44 AM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
253 pairs of in ceiling M3s. Granted, that $126,000 price tag included massive fronts, and a $x0,000 sound processor.
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http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#407965 - 11/05/14 12:52 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 264
Loc: PEI, Canada
Man I wish I could have been there!

I guess you are right. For that price it better have been outrageously good. Do you recall their ATMOS config? Angled?

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#407967 - 11/05/14 03:43 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4515
Loc: Marion, IA
Honestly, I do not. It was a dark room with about 24 seats in it. They had a number of products on display outside the listening/watching area that were well lit, but used flashlights to show people to their seats. You couldn't even see the main speakers until they shined the flashlights on them.

I do, however, know that the speakers were "outside" the listening area, meaning that *IF* they were pointing straight down, they would be pointed at empty carpet, and not directly over someone's head. So either they are REALLY wide dispersion, or they were angled. I know this because they were put on to a shiny metal truss system that you could see. It was at least 2-3 feet to the front, back, left, and right of the seating area.

While I can't imagine it NOT being angled inward, it would just be my speculation and not hard fact because, like I mentioned, I couldn't actually see the speaker angle, although I could just barely make out where they were located on the truss system.
_________________________
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#408175 - 11/19/14 08:42 PM Re: M3 In-Ceiling Loudspeakers [Re: CV]
rprice54 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 93
Loc: North Georgia
I finally got a chance to test these. For stereo sound, obviously, they aren't s great choice for 2.0 listening. As a non- ported speaker, with a much smaller cabinet than the full blown M3 they are a bit thin sounding. They would be great in a 2.1 setting though. Very clear and crisp. Great imaging, which should serve me well for Atmos. My AVR (Marantz 7009) set the crossover for these at 100, my on wall M3s were set to 60 by Audessey.

I haven't had a full blown Atmos movie yet, but the Atmos demo disc and using Dolby Surround (Desolation of Smaug, at the end in the mountain with all the falling coins and running from Smaug) has been nothing short of impressive. I also recommend the bonus short from the Frozen 3D blu ray. Mickey flies a plane around the room and it's just crazy.

These sound seamless with my other Axiom speakers. I wouldn't use them as LCR but wouldn't hesitate to use them as surrounds or tops. With door and stud placement in my room I couldn't use them as surrounds- thus the on wall M3s.

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