Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler My display is dying

I was hoping I would get another 3 years out of the current display while OLED matured, but that's not happening. The blue block on my xsrd is going and I've got all these green blotches showing up on my display.

Movies are still viewable, but I expect that won't last.

Some other things have changed, like child #2 heading off to university so I no longer need a second internet/gaming display. That's got me rethinking what I need.

Things I don't care about:
1. 4K I can barely tell the difference between upscaled DVDs and blurays on my 50" display at my seating distance (9').

2. Anything cable TV.

3. 3D If something worth watching in 3D comes along, I'll go to a theater.

What I care about:
1. Budget. Putting two kids through university is 'spensive!

2. Screen size. 50" is nice, but I wants bigger (not very compatible with #1 )

My usage will most likely change to more occasional as I do most of my browsing from my bedroom computer.

That's got me thinking about projectors. I can't afford the high end, but I know that in the last few years there have been some real advances in 'budget' projection.

Does anyone here have any experience with budget projectors like the BenQ 1070 or other projectors less that $2,000?

Hey Fred

At 9' seating we had at one point a projection of 80ish inches that was pretty immersive and fun.

You are right, the last few years have been huge for projector leaps. We currently own an Epson 8345(twin of 8350- but named 8345 for futureshop I guess) which has been solid for the last couple of years. My brothers each purchased one after seeing mine. Great value and performance balance. The lens shift is a huge plus.

When it dies I'd go epson again. There are better for sure, but $$ dictates.

There are a lot of great bargains right now. Check out projectorcentral.com for lots of great info on throw distances, reviews, recommendations, tech to come etc.

Yup, $$ dictate. I've been reading on projector central and AVS. It seems that the BenQ 1070 can't be beat until you go over $2,000.

My understanding is that the BenQ is equal to something like the 8345 less the lens shift. A slight plus goes to the BenQ if you care about gaming (Might end up with my son next summer again).

It seems like the choices are as follows:

1. BenQ 1070
2. Epson 8343 if I need placement flexibility
3. Step up to something like an Epson 5030ub, Sony HW40es ... for $1500 more if I really care about black levels/contrast AND can set up a proper light controlled environment.

I'm guessing I'll get black levels similar to my A5050 XSRD with the BenQ. OK, but not great. I can live with that.

I just want to do a sanity check before jumping in.

After owning one, fan noise is a priority in my future projector buying decision.

In eco mode the epson is barely audible. If you can mount it further behind you, all the better.

I've looked a little further into projectors and found a few things. There is not much available at the brick and mortar level. I had hoped to be able to see one of the low end projectors to see what I would be getting in the way of image quality. No such luck. The best place I've found so far is an hour away and has two demo rooms, but only equipped with mid to high end projectors.

Screens appear to be a whole other can-o-worms, ranging from DIY to "you want WHAT??". Again, there does not seem to be any place where I can even compare low end to high end manufactured screens.

I did get a chance to see an Panny ae7000 in action and it is significantly better than what I have not in terms of black levels and contrast. The salesman offered it to me for $2,400 because its "a year out of date now". Um, gee, thanks.

So, my options are:

1. 50-60" plasma @ $1,100 to 1,500 all in (Samsung)
2. LED in the same size range at close to the same price
3. BenQ 1070 with some sort of screen for anything from $1,300 to 1,900 all in depending on the screen I choose.

My impression is that, unless I go up to something like the Panny ae8000 I'm going to give up black level and shadow detail even to an LED TV.

All that said, the biggest question I have now is what difference an inexpensive vs mid-line screen makes.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Trust reviews when it comes to displays/projectors. Brick and mortars dont have the space to demo several PJs side by side.

Screens choicesare most important for gain vs hot spotting balance given throw distances. With an image around 100" or so, even the cheaper projectors will light it up well. Larger screens need more lumen output or higher gain screens. The farther away your PJ is fromthe screen wall, the better color and contrast at the expense of brightness usually. But barely so.

Fwiw, the top ten lists at projector central are probably foolproof bets at your price range. I have purchased every display I have ever owned based on pro reviews from the likes of cnet or HT magazine and have always been more than satisfied. We all see the same, so measurements rule in display reviews.

When it comes to PJ screen reviews, forums like AVS or hometheatershack have a good base of info and active community. If you are in a dedicated space, a fixed frame is the way to go for sure. I wouldnt get too hung up on the screen. Even entry level screens can produce a great picture once the PJ is calibrated after lamp break in.

At 9' I'd find a nice 65" tv.
The 8000 is nice and if you could you probably wouldn't regret it.

Is hotspotting something that only happens with higher gain screens?

That's pretty much what I am relying on right now (cuz, you know, Mark isn't showing up in this thread to impart his vast projector knowledge on me...). From what I understand, there are three possible issues with lower end screens: sparkle, hot spotting and texture.

The thing is, I have no idea what sort of range there is to any of these effects or how much they are going to bother me.

In my current layout, the screen is actually 6 feet into my living room, so I would need to find a way to flip up a fixed screen. I was originally thinking of building my own screen using an extruded aluminum framing system, but if I can buy a decent screen at a reasonable price, I'd rather do that.

I've tried DIY blackout- great results
DIY white vinyl -whites were blown out and poor off axis viewing

I have seen several low end screens sub $300 and the all look fine once you are watching. I wouldn't mess with gain above 1.0 or go silver screen. Matte white is safe.

Fwiw, spandex AT screens and wall paint are becoming popular among DIYers.

Seymour AV sells all flavours of screens and gives free advice and samples. Not to mention they are fairly reasonably priced. There product will end up in my theater eventually.

I checked out Seymour. Trouble is, them being in the US and only shipping UPS and Fedex it will cost an arm and a leg in fees for anything they ship.

There is a small Canadian company called Elunevision that is not that far from me, so they are probably my best bet for a manufactured screen.

I suppose I could just go with blackout material see how that works.

A 65" screen puts me into the same price range as the Benq 1070 + a decent 90"-100" fixed frame screen. That's what got me thinking projector in the first place.

My 8' x 11' piece (on a roll) cost $349.25 with tax and duty.

Looking at my credit card statement online to confirm, I think I had series amazon issues back then...(I remember joking about only being aloud one item in transit at a time).

A 65" screen puts me into the same price range as the Benq 1070 + a decent 90"-100" fixed frame screen. That's what got me thinking projector in the first place. [/quote]

I think TV's still have their place, like a lit living room.
Our 8000 is in a very dark cave (on eco), I don't need masking on my wall of screen.

If I were continuing with every day casual use, I would probably go with a flat panel. With my son gone most of the time, this is now primarily for movies, usually at night. To me, that screams projector.

I'm thinking the loss of a little black level/contrast to get an additional 30-40" of screen at roughly the same price is worth it.

At that price, I can buy a 100" fixed frame and modify it slightly for my purposes.

Hmmm, just realized I'd have to figure out something for my center channel. Time for a ceiling mount VP180?

I wanted the freedom to select my screen size once it had an image projected on it. This seemed the easiest way.

Looking back (just posted this elsewhere here at axiom) this DIY screen stood out. Black spandex with white spandex over top.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital...ml#post27315562

Go back a page to see the construction details.

That's a good point. If I build too big, I can mask. Too small is hard to fix.

I've read quite a few DIY threads now, but there is one thing missing from all of them: a direct comparison to commercial offerings. I've not seen a post that says "my spandex build is as good as a Carada xyz screen. The gain seems to be $ saved over very expensive commercial offerings, but its not clear at all what is being given up to achieve that low low price.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital...ml#post27315562

Go back a page to see the construction details. [/quote]

I wrote a long blurb explaining what I found but I couldn't find the link. I found it though so I'll just let you read it for yourself. Includes metered test results. Although I don't know how much weight the graphed margins of difference carry.

laminate screen info plus test comparisons

I'm extremely satisfied, if that counts for anything. Plus if a kid powerpukes on it, you can just wipe it clean! Ya... it happened.

With an acoustically transparent screen you can have the best of both worlds (get a matching center, you won't regret it).

Thanks for the link Murph. With all the reading I've done over the last week, for some reason I missed out on this material.

I think it would work quite well for my situation. Being in an apartment, I don't want to fiddle with paints and sprayers. The plan (I seem to have decided to do this) is to build an aluminum frame that I can fold up to the ceiling when not in use. That the material is easily cleaned is perfect as I was worried about dust accumulation when the screen is stored folded up.

You have a light controlled room do you not? I'm thinking about using one of the greys for ambient light viewing because the projector I'm looking at is a light cannon.

Damn, I'm starting to get excited about this. I never thought I'd be able to afford an HT projection setup.

The M2s match my M80s very well. When I bought them, neither the VP160 or VP180 existed. I'm really very happy with the M2s as a center channel.

The challenge for me is how to place the bottom center for a screen that folds down into the middle of a room. I could try to mount it to the bottom of the screen, but I would have to make the frame strong enough to handle the weight of the speaker in the up position whithout distorting the screen frame. It might also look butt ugly with the backside of a speaker dangling down from the ceiling.

I can't picture it (folding down).

Picture a square tube aluminum frame(1"x1"). There will be an additional section of tube bolted to the ceiling. Hinges will connect the top of the frame to tube section bolted to the ceiling.

Want to watch a move? Fold down. Done watching? fold up and lock into latch (also attached to ceiling). Quite simple really.

The plan is to use 8020 Quick Frame for the frame section. I've seen a few fixed frame builds use it.

Can you arrange to have it play some of the launch theme music from Thunderbirds while it's folding down ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1faTFQ-5LQ

That was pretty cool.
At least use the drum roll....

I suppose I could hum a few bars each time I raise and lower the screen. On special occasions I could even don the uniform.

This one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwxYiVXYyVs

FYI Futureshop is having a sale on a few projector models right now.

The Epson 8345 (twin of 8350) is on for 899$ !!!!

A great deal for an excellent entry level projector. A no brainer for anyone looking to get into the projector game. I own one and recommend with no reservations.

Thanks for the heads up. I see they also now have the BenQW1070 for $849.

In the few head to head comparisons I've seen at AVSforum, the BenQ edges out the 8350/45 in picture quality. The one thing the Epson does have is lens shift, but it's not something I need.

Don't get me wrong, from what I've read, the Epson 8350/45 was an amazing projector when it was released. It appears that it has been eclipsed by the W1030.

Its nice to know that the BenQ has dropped by $100 in Canada though. That's money I can invest into a screen. I can now manage a manufactured screen and projector for $1,300, less than a 60" flat panel TV. That's just stupid cheap for a projection system.

Glad your having fun with this. It's so much more fun to renovate when it's to bring more fun instead of just because your 70's green colored fridge finally died and nothing matches anymore.

Your right, my room is very light controlled. Basement with just one window shaded by the outdoor deck so it's easily made as dark as I want it. The Wilsonart Designer white works awesome in a dark environment. Grey certainly may suit better if you don't have the same advantage.

Currently I have the screen off the wall and the projector down as I FINALLY, years later, am finishing the trim and bar ad stuff. It went a long time half finished but functional. I've always been too ashamed to post pictures.

Its nice to be a little excited about the theater again. Maybe this is the push I need to get my livingroom/theater cleaned up as well.

How big is your screen Murph? Have you had any issues with sagging at all. It seems that some have, but I don't know if that was for a very large screen.

Although I heard of people ordering bigger at the time, the longest I could source was a 96x60 sheet. This limited me to a max of 96x54 for a diagonal size of 110.25 inches at 16:9.

However, I wanted to put a small portion of the material under the lip of the screen trim to help hold it down flat so I used a calculator, similar to this one, to figure out the height after losing .25 to .5 inch per side. I can't remember what I settled on, not that it would make a huge difference.

Screen Size Calculator

No issues with sagging yet. I made a really tight frame of MDF boards, pocket hole screwed together. I probably went overboard with the bracing in the middle but more had to be better, right?

I used a spray adhesive to glue the material to the frame. You will want help with that part and since the material comes in a roll, you will want to spread it out and pre-flatten it for a while, if you have the room. I skipped that step but I recommend that you do not.

I ran the outside trim pieces across my router table to cut out the recessed lip that covered the screen material. I wrapped the trim in a dark black material so it took some test cuts on scrap wood to get just the right depth to add pressure to the screen but stay flat.

To hang it I made french cleats into the top rail in back (a simple 45 degree angle on the bottom edge.) You have to plan your bracing accordingly to leave room for a couple of good size pieces to lock down into the other opposing angle cleats boards screwed into the wall. Lays flat on the wall, is very sturdy and makes for simple removal, should a reason ever come up.

Hey, thanks for the detailed reply Murph. It really helps.
That is exactly what I want to do, except I want to use aluminum to keep the frame light. The plan was to use square tube for the main frame and then some 1/2" angle around the edges clamped and screwed to the main frame to help hold the laminate in place. I was thinking of using double sided sticky tape between the frame and the laminate on the back and between the laminate and the 1/2" angle to hold the laminate in place.

I had read that using adhesive on any frame cross braces led to waves in the laminate. That may be because people were using pine lumber for the frame and running into moisture induced warpage.


Wilsonart has a location in Toronto. I guess I should call and talk to them about what to do.

I've been to that calculator a number of times now when looking at what space I have available.


That's good to hear. What centers did you run on your bracing?

What spray adhesive did you use?

I had also considered gluing the laminate to a 1/4" ply backer, but read the adhesives you had to use create a LOT of fumes. Was also not confident that I could do that without causing bubbles between the laminate and backer. Really, If I can avoid using a backer I want to just to keep down on the weight. Getting something larger than 4x8 play would also probably be quite expensive.


Biners and eye hooks! It came to me this afternoon that I could use caribiners and eye hooks to hang this thing and to hold it when folded up. Devilishly simple yet quite strong. I could even go with desinger biners to add some flash to the mancave.

I think this might just work. The next step is to see what I can get from Wilsonart and see if there is an adhesive I can use for aluminum (other than sticky tape).

I guess I should really open a thread in the HT subforum unless the mods can move this thread there.

From some poking around on the internets, it looks like 3M makes some interesting spray on adhesives including stuff that bonds differing materials like aluminum and counter top laminate.

I dare not hit the quote button again. Too much work to keep breaking all that up.

You should be able to ask any friendly custom kitchen shop to sell you a roll of laminate. That's what I did. Took a few days as they had to order some in for that particular color.

I used MDF for the center braces as well. Like you, I was concerned about warping and MDF should never warp unless it gets saturated. I wasn't worried about swinging it up so weight was not a concern. Maybe not a good choice for you as it would be too heavy to 'comfortably' swing up to the ceiling on a regular basis, but it could be done and could double as a home gym exercise.

I used 3m spray. I "think" it was 3m 90. Probably overkill again but it has the best resistance to moisture. (screen shifting paranoia again)

Like you, I considered glue but also worried about flatness. You can use a brush but spray seemed easier.

Thanks for answering all my questions Murph. I'm going to start a proper thread in the Home Theater sub forum. I may end up going in a different direction. Stay tuned...