Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Amplifier or new receiver?

Hi:
I recently sent my VP150 and got a new VP180. Now the setup is M80s , VP180 , EP350 and QS8 powered by a Denon 3300. Recently a new puppy joined the family and went about chewing the speaker cable, thus making a driver blown on a M80 (fixed by Axiom now) but the receiver also seems to have suffered and that channel does crackling sounds. I tested with another old receiver and the speaker is good. So i am in market for a new receiver or amplifier. Can i add a new amplifier and still use the processor on the Denon? What are the experts recommending?

Appreciate help.

Regs,
Avi

Most receivers have output options for those with external amplification.

Your Denon 3300 is no different.

Looking at the back, there is a Pre-Out section just above the CENTER and SURROUND [R] normal speaker outputs. You would just use those connections and let the Denon do the processing, and have the amplifier power whatever speakers you have it connected to.

You could get a 2 or 3 channel amp to run the front speakers and use the denon to handle the rest. Have a look on Canuckaudiomart or ebay or Axiom if you want new. ADA 1000 will be plenty.

I have a ADA1000 BUT a new receiver would be first on my list now. They've come a long way in last little while.
Having a dedicated amp for my L/R/C really helped too though.
If your ceiling height will allow atmos speakers I'd go that way.
My drunk $0.02.
Lol.

Which would cost less, a new receiver or an external amp? Personally I use external amps but I have the HP versions of the Axiom speakers and enjoy the higher output levels that are possible with this arrangement. However, in your case I suspect that the standard versions of the M80 and VP180 might be the limiting factor. Thus you might actually save some money by replacing the receiver!

It really depends on two things: budget, any plans to upgrade to ATMOS?

If the answer is "I don't want to spend much money and I'm not ready to spend money on ATMOS": get a decent 2ch or 5ch USED amp on whatever local used market website you have (kijiji, craigslist, ebay, etc...). I'm sure in the SF Bay area you can find a Rotel RMB-1075 for under $500 or even some Emotiva XPA's for even less. Having the added dedicated power for your M80's will probably open them up too as your Denon is 105wpc?

If you have been thinking of upgrading, the equivalent new AVR-X3300W is about $1k and then you will need 2 new speakers for ATMOS and an extra sub :-)

Unfortunately, going Pre/Pro is expensive as I'm unaware of a inexpensive pre that can do ATMOS. Emotiva's XMC-1 Pre starts at $2500! and Outlaw audios pre doesn't do Atmos.

If you stay 5.1... get yourself used 2-ch amp that can to 300wpc :-)

I have a similar question so I thought I would post it here.

Some Background:
When I moved into my house a few years ago, the prev. owner left some Mirage AVS-200 surround speakers on the wall and 4 Bose outdoor speakers on the second floor with all of the cables terminating at the spot for the main tv receiver downstairs.

The basement room is generally terrible for a home theatre setup (IMO):

The basement room is awkwardly shaped, about 900 sq ft with 8ft acoustic drop ceiling and a curved staircase that opens up part of the ceiling to the second floor. There are several drywall protrusions and alcoves for a bar area and doors for 6 other rooms, a hallway, and a gas fire place that all confuse the space. The best place to put the TV is between two pieces of wall that each protrude about 2 ft into the room (essentially a 50 inch TV fills the space between the two wall protrusions), on one side is a floor to ceiling gas fireplace and the other is the start of a hallway). I know some pictures would help but I have not figured out how to post any yet.
Since we had a lot of other stuff to spend money on with the new house, I wanted to use the existing speakers and I didn't know much about home audio so I bought a relatively cheap ($399 CDN) Pioneer Elite VSX-42 Receiver (80 WPC) and a Klipsch 10” 175W sub and just ran the system with the sub and the satellite surrounds only. I know, I know, I had other things going on and we didn’t watch a lot of TV.

Fast forward a couple years and my friend shows me his Axiom Air that he bought on the kick starter. After learning that in Axiom there was still a purely Canadian company that actually builds their speakers in Canada, with free shipping, I decided I didn’t need to look anywhere else for audio speakers. I was considering buying the AA when the price change was announced earlier this year where CDN prices would be going up. So I decided to load up on an AA, a pair of M60s, a VP-160, and an EP-350 (good sales idea Axiom, I know I wasn’t the only one that pulled the trigger then). I kept the Mirage surrounds and hooked everything up to the Pioneer VSX-42.
The speakers / sub have been fantastic! While that 10” Klipsch could produce bass I didn’t realize how sloppy / muddy it was until I acquired the EP-350. The bass from the EP-350 is fairly loud and powerful but what stood out the most was hour TIGHT and clean (musical?) it sounded by comparison. The M60s and VP 160 sound great, producing clear highs and good bass on their own. My worry is I am not getting all they can offer because of the low power amp in the receiver, and that they are all crammed below that TV in the space with the centre only having about 2 inches of clearance between each of the floor standing speakers. While I don’t think there is much I can do about the placement of the speakers for now, I am getting the upgrade itch.
MY Question
What are thoughts on purchasing an ADA 1250 3 channel amp for the M60s and VP160 vs a more powerful, better sounding receiver and some QS4 or QS8s? Initially, I was looking at the Marantz SR7011 but I don’t think I am going to invest in ATMOS until we move to a different house with better home theatre setup options. So buying a high quality used pre-ATMOS receiver sounds logical as recommended by TDIPablo. I am still regretting not going for the EP 500 initially so down the road I think I’ll be investing in 2x EP-600s (who know look like the CDN dollar is turning around again too). With a 2 year old and a 6 month old, I don’t get a chance to crank it that much right now anyway.

Any thoughts from the community?

If you ask me, you would be totally wasting your money adding any external amp to the current receiver you have. You will gain nothing as the signal it puts out is the limiting factor.

I have tried a multitude of amps hooked up to an array of different lower end receivers from Yamaha through Pioneer and even tried my luck with a Marantz. It wasn't until I threw in the towel and spluged to by myself an Anthem that like a light switch being suddenly turned on, the sound out of my speakers came to life.

Now I will admit that I got some incredible sound out of my really old Nakamichi AV1 but it's only good as a 2.0 sound system as it doesn't even have actual base management.

Partially true, search the board for more on this. Unless things have changed - and they may have - some drivers are not made in Canada.

If you are in the area, you can drop in and visit Axiom. Ian is a great guy and always accommodating. Search this board for many visits and anniversary bashes over the years.

With the M60 the external isn't really necessary since it is relatively high 6 Ohms. You'd save a fair bit going higher power receiver with better processing. just keep an eye on your AVRs heat level.

When I switched from bookshelves to M80s my AVR{Teac Pro} was getting really warm from there I scored a used pro amp 450wpc. that I enjoyed very much since have added a 3 channel ADA1250, I wanted to keep the same power level 450wpc.

Although you'll probably find the E.P.350 to be limiting factor as the towers put out wonderful L.F.E. levels.

On a plus note young kids shows are very musical they will notice their shows sound wonderful and we can sing them the originals along with the songs. {Backyardigans does a lot of old remakes} My kids are 7 and 9 when their friends come for a movie they have never wanted to leave. "It's like our own theater" I've heard many times.

Cheers

Hi Mike,

Things have changed. All the drivers are made in Canada now.

I stand corrected, and must have missed that announcement.

My apologies and carry on!

Thanks for the input.

I think upgrading the AVR is the way to go for now. I'll let you know how that goes.

So after a lot of soul searching and visiting stores, I am deciding to get separates. Anybody has luck with sunfire Amplifiers
TGA-7401
TGA-7201

I may be getting dealer price on these.

Is the first one too much? 800W at 4ohm. Will it be an issue for QS8? It says on the product page

How much power does my receiver need for these speakers?

Home theater receiver with 40 to 120 watts per channel.

My other speakers are M80s and VP180 and EP350, so should be good at 4 ohm.

Would the 7201 be good at 400 W at 4 ohm?

Regardless of how much power an amp has it only puts out what you ask of it. Given the sensitivity of Axiom speakers you will never ever come close to using that kind of power. I do believe its good to have some headroom. They do not state the power with all channels driven but given its ability to double down into 4 ohms i would say it is more than adequate. Bob Carver is legendary in the audio circle and he wouldnt just put his name on something just for bragging rights. If you can afford the freight then by all means get them.

It took a while but finally got some of the setup done. I went with the Sunfire TGA-7401 and Marantz AV7704 and added a Sony UBP-X1000ES (4K Bluray). Also got good deal on Audioquest cables, so went all out. Now the question is adding extra speakers to my 5.1 setup. Got 2 pairs of Sonance for the Atmos but also want to add 2 sides and move my QS8s to back.

The questions are
1. what is the placement for atmos ones in-ceiling?
2. do i add another pair of qs8 for sides or M3s, since side should more direct?
3. should the sides and back be at ear level?
4. I run vp180 on top of tv, would it make diff if I put it under the TV?

Avi,

Just want to add my two cents, I had a similar issue, so want to share.

I lived with my M80-VP150,QS8 speakers for 15+ years, and ran it with a Pioneer VSX-1015 receiver. I liked, but never loved, the sound.

So, I saved up, and bought some custom made, high end speakers (leaving name off with respect as this is an Axiom forum). So to power them right, I bought a Outlaw Audio 7700 and a Yamaha 5100 pre-amp.

Well, the custom speakers were several months away from being finished, so I hooked my existing system up to my new pre-amp and amp.

WOW, what a difference! WITH MY EXISTING AXIOM SPEAKERS!!! While I love my new custom speakers, the improvement in sound with my Axiom's was tremendous. I probably would have "re-thought" my custom speaker purchase had I known that there would be that much of an improvement just by upgrading the electronics.

It was interesting, because everything I read, said that if the amp is of a high enough quality, there should be no difference in the sound, as long as you are not pushing the amp past it's intended power.

Now, I would like to add, that, in addition to running that darn MCACC auto calibration like a zillion times, I had my system professionally calibrated by Jeff Meier of https://www.accucalav.com/, so I know that I had it set as accurate as possible, and had the calibration done in 2014, and did the electronics upgrade in mid 2016.

This is just my experience.

I think that is still true, however (a) it seems to be a whole lot easier to drive an amp past its intended power than people think, and (b) amps and preamps both seem to have more differences in frequency response than I previously suspected.

In my case I went from the ~65WPC amp stage of an HK receiver to a >200WPC Adcom 555 power amp - no noticeable difference when playing quietly but even at what I thought were "moderate" levels of loudness the difference was eye-opening.

Hi:

So finally I added 4 in-ceiling Dolby Atmos speakers but got lost on the configuration. I have Marantz 7704 Preamp (11.1) and sunfire 7701 (7 channel) amp. I have been using 5.2 so have 2 channels available on sunfire.

How would I wire the 4 dolby atmos? can I use the same sunfire channel (rear surround) and connect all 4 speakers or need another amplifier?

Appreciate any help.

Regs,
Avi

You need a dedicated channel for each speaker so you are short 2 channels.

Thnx Mojo.
What would you recommend using? I have my old Denon 3312. can I use it along with the Sunfire and Marantz? Maybe use the rear channel of Denon?

You can use the Denon but make sure any sound processing is turned off. Use the Marantz as the sound processor. Keep in mind that the gain of the Denon, Sunfire and Marantz may all differ which will affect the ultimate SPL you can achieve. This may be more of a theoretical rather than a practical concern for you.

Id try running all 4 of 2 channels because you can.
Pretty good chance you'll need to turn them down alot so the overheads are "barely there".
Then when things get wild on screen it won't be distracting but rather will scare the crap out of you and anyone listening.

If you do that, you would only be setting up your receiver as 5.x.2 and not 5.x.4.

Not a big deal if your ceiling speakers are close together and if the source material coding doesn't take full advantage of ATMOS (of which very little material does at the moment).

However, if you want true 5.x.4, you need to get an additional 2-ch amp. Seeing as it is for ATMOS ceiling, it need not be too powerful.

Thnx. So I should be able to repurpose my Denon for this?

The Denon 3312 doesn't have multi-channel inputs so you would have to use one of the analog 2-ch inputs (cd/bd/dvd) etc and set them up as direct internally in the Denon and I'm not sure volume control would work well.

Personally, I'd sell the Denon and pick up a dedicated, used 2 or 4 channel amp with the proceeds.