Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater ATMOS for a small'ish space?

I've been thinking about incorporating some ATMOS capabilities to my 12' X 18' theater room. I do not wish to cut holes into the walls or ceiling though, as it's all sound dampened. Plus, I intend to sell the house in about 3 years when I retire and move. I don't want to deal with fixing holes when I do. I can, however, build some boxes (I think) that I could mount ceiling speakers to, then either attach them to the ceiling or hang them. My ceiling is roughly 8.5'.

I am currently using QS8's at three locations; R/L front height, positioned in the front wall R/L corners about my M80 R/L speakers, R/L side surrounds, hanging from Axiom ceiling mounts and angle down to the seats, and at the rear for R/L rear surround speakers. The rears are mounted with Axiom brackets, about 6.5' from the floor, angled down. They are about 6' apart. The great thing about the QS8's, is they are so forgiving with room placement, and that's worked well in this room for years.

Space is the limiting factor. There's also a door directly to the right of the listening area, limiting speaker placement to above the door, and the seats are only 2.5' from the rear wall. I can move them forward afoot, but that's about it. There's also a window to left of the seats.... I have a 2.4:1 screen that's 8' wide, so moving the seats forward is restricted as well.

I have been reading about ATMOS, and comments from Nick and Randy here, and it would seem that my QS8's need to go and I should use M3's or some other type of direct-radiating speaker. That kinda sucks, seeing how my Q's are all V4 in real wood finish..... And, they work so well with my restricted speaker placement.

I think the rear wall is too close for any direct-radiating spaeker to be used there, but possibly keep the Q's for rear surrounds. I can't lower them either, or people would be running into them when accessing the HT equipment that's behind the seats....

I can't really mount or place side surrounds at ear level either. Same problem, not enough space to walk between the wall and seats.

Pictures would obviously help. I've given up on Photobucket. Too bad this site doesn't host pics.

Anyone have a favorite photo-sharing site I could post pictures of my room to?

Correct the ideal Atmos is all direct radiating, The on wall versions might be worth looking at as they would protrude into your room as much as a full bookshelf. If you can place the surrounds within a couple feet of ear height directed to you should be fine. Another way to go maybe 5.2.4 without rear just sides.
Sadly most any multi pole speaker gives to much of a spread out sound for ideal Atmos bubble.

Thanks guys. I'll try Mojo's pic posting site.

My ceiling is trayed, and that is where I think I can mount some ceiling speakers. I'd run the speaker wire behing some molding to the projector cable conduit.

When I updated my room to Atmos I swapped out my Qs8 surrounds for onwall m22s, however, I did go with Axioms M3 round in ceilings for the 4 Atmos channels.

Nice Pics

It is a comfy room. Sorry I can't offer any advice...which is quite unlike me.

Lower the side and rear surrounds for sure (even if you don't go monopole, which ideally you would), add some on-wall M3s mounted on your ceiling. That is what I did because I too soundproofed my room and wasn't about to punch holes into the ceiling in hopes of retrofitting something. I am using a combination of Axiom Full Metal Brackets for the front two, and a simple wooden "wedge" for the rear two overheads. Yes, I had to remove the main drivers and drill holes into the backs of the rear overhead M3s to mount them to the wooden wedges, but some precision holes, some t-nuts into the wedges, and some bolts for a clean fit.

Works really well and allows for aiming of the whole speaker and not just the tweeter.

I can't lower the QS8's, as they would just get walked into, but I "may" have room to wall mount some Axiom wall mount speakers for side surrounds. They would not be as obtrusive. Not ideal, but better I think. As you can see from the pictures though, one would have to forward to the seating area. Would that be an issue? I can mount the left rear surround to the corner base trap, if being angled doesn't matter?

Hey Nick, do you have any pictures of the ceiling-mounted M3's?

Do you think they are a better choice than the round ceiling speakers mounted in an encloser of sorts?

I picked up a pair of ELAC upfiring Atmos speakers... around $200. I set them atop the LFR1100s. Picked up a used 2 channel Rotel amp. Elacs bounce off ceiling.

Sounds pretty good!

I set my tuna atop the LFRs. It didn't bounce off the ceiling. The LFRs now sound more fleshy.

Fishy or fleshy?

Fleshy sounds scary.

Definitely fleshy. I killed the fishy with olive oil, salt, pepper and a splash of brandy.

I'll dig up some photos.

If you can't lower the surround speakers, then you won't get the layer separation needed for Atmos to be effective. I switched from QS8s to on-wall M3s for surround duty and they are still thick, but not as thick as the QS8s were.

For me, again, I didn't want to cut holes and try to put backer boxes into my ceiling in hopes that it is good enough (our master bedroom is right above the theater), but the bigger challenge is that I also used whisper clips and hat channel that ran inbetween my ceiling joists, effectively cutting the space for in-ceiling speakers to go by 1/2, plus they weren't always dead center of the ceiling joists as there was some "lackluster" construction precision when the house was built, so they weren't even and I wanted my hat channel to be perfectly spaced. So there was no chance of getting holes cut, where I needed them for Atmos, without hitting something, and without compromising the integrity of the soundproofing.

If I was building from scratch "post Atmos" (since I built the room pre-Atmos) I would go in-ceiling speakers with really heavy duty backer boxes for a super clean look. Couldn't do that, so I mounted them on the ceiling and actually get better sound, at the cost of looks...

UPDATE. Let's see if these photos work.





This next one I took with the intention of showing that from standing in the row on my 13" riser and with the camera about 6.5 feet above that, you can see over the front overhead speakers. That is a limit of the Axiom FMBs. These could be more flush with the ceiling if I used wood wedges in the front like I did the back, but the FMBs allowed me to tweak and adjust the front angle a bit during installation.



For those with keen eyes, these were taken at different points in time, but the angles should be current. These photos were not taken today.

Thanks for posting those photos Nick. Very helpful. I get why you did not wish to cut holes in your walls/ceiling. Your sound damping is more elaborate than mine. I just converted what was originally a bedroom, into a HT. I used bat insulation, soundboard, and 5/8" sheetrock over the soundboard. I am using what was to be a closet, as the hub for the electronics.

Would you recommend swapping out the QS8's I have mounted above my M80's with M3's as well, and re-position them to the ceiling, or should I leave them where they are and continue using them as front height channels?

For the ceiling speakers, I am thinking that I can build some boxes out of MDF that I can mount the round M3 ceiling speaker to, or, just get wall mount M3's like you did. If I go with building boxes for the round M3's, I can probably build the boxes with any angle I need, then mount them to the ceiling. Might be a cleaner look. More work, obviously, but if it's worth the effort, I might as well do that.

I was looking at Axiom's trade-up program. I've gone that route before. Not sure if trading QS8's for M3's would be considered an "up" trade.... Damn, this hobby can be aggravating. I just dropped a bunch of coin upgrading the video stream to 4K (this room and my living room too). Now ATMOS....

Hi 2X6,
Thanks for the tip on the ELEC. I'll look into them. I was leaning toward all direct-radiating speakers, as I've read mixed reviews on the type of ATMOS speaker that bounces sound. I know you are pretty fussy when it comes to SQ though, so your input is meaningful.

I just looked at the in-wall M3 dimensions. I think if I build boxes for the ceiling speakers, these may work out better than the round speakers. They are not as deep as the round speakers....

Which would be the better choice for the ceiling speakers? The round M3's, or rectangle M3's?

Atmos and DTS:X both work best with all monopole speakers, so if possible, yes, replace the front height QS8s with something monopole instead of quadpole.

DTS:X caters more towards being able to use front heights like that, Atmos wants them on/in the ceiling at particular angles from the listening position. There is overlap in positioning that falls within both the DTS:X and Atmos recommended angle ranges, but that range is on the ceiling only.

I have a photo somewhere of my trade up boxes all ready for shipping. Four QS8s and a VP150. In their boxes, it was quite the pile.

You should get better imaging with the in walls ... but if your ceiling is low the distance to your ear may not be enough to take advantage of it. You also can’t toe them in. The in ceiling has amiable tweeters but since the speaker is recessed you will be able identify where it is. On walls mounted to the ceiling are the best bet if you don’t mind the look. Nick has blazed the way with on walls and it’s the route I’m taking.

This is where I went when trying to find a solution for low ceilings and it worked out really well...


DOLBY ATMOS: DISPERSION REQUIREMENTS FOR CEILING SPEAKERS

If you scroll down a little bit, it shows diagrams for lower ceilings with overhead speakers mounted on the ceiling vs in the ceiling to get proper angles.

Nyal Mellor is a pretty smart guy that did an amazing job with acoustical mapping and treatments for a home theater in my area that I had the privilege to demo a few years back. I mean the sound was SOOOO good. Granted, the home owner put in probably $100,000 $125,000 into the theater room itself and that was all DIY speakers and DIY acoustical treatments that were developed by Nyal to "keep costs down." So if he put in commercially available speakers and treatments for absorption and diffusion, or had contractors build out the space itself (outside of the 10 ft "pit" for the front of the theater when the house was built) it would have been even more expensive.

I've been taking some measurements and pondering how to run wire, mount speakers and so forth.....

I think I can get M3 wall mounts for the surrounds and back channels. I'll have to anchor them to the walls better than just using the supplied brackets, but that's not a problem.

For the ceiling speakers, I'm leaning towards two sets of in-wall M3's. They are the shallowest option. I will build some cabinets that I can recess them into, then mount the cabinets to the ceiling above the seating area. The ceiling height over the seat is 8.5'. The trayed perimeter is 7.5'. That gives me 12" to work with for the ceiling speaker cabinets. The in-walls are roughly 3" deep, so I'm pretty sure I can angle the cabinets plenty. I can build these ceiling cabinets at any angle I need to get the speakers to fire at the MLP. I only have the single row of three seats anyway.

I'll have to run the wires surface mounted, but I can figure out a way to hide them behind some decorative trim.

Thanks for all the input. It's been very helpful.

It's too bad QS10's couldn't be used for atmos using just the forward firing woofer for atmos metadata.
Best of both words imo.

Still pondering my options for the ceiling......

I can fit the round ceiling speakers to a couple boxes if I keep the back and front pairs a max center/center distance 48". The back row would be directly overhead. If I need the front and back further apart, then I'll need to go with the in-wall M3's.

Is 48" of separation enough? I've read the Atmos guide, and it doesn't really speak to dimensions. Just angles.

Bizarre.
A rather critical element.

I'm going to try the round speakers anyway. Order placed for four of them, and four on-wall M3's.

I’m going with M3 on walls on the ceiling as top middles and M3 bookshelves as front and rear heights.

In a small space front to back this should give you max separation. It also lends itself to be configured for ATMOS, DTS and Auro 3D (if you wire for two more speakers for front center and mid center). I wired several other locations as well just in case but they are probably a bit much if your room is too small.

I'm actually thinking about front and rear heights..... I'll keep the QS8's wired up to play around with DTS and see how it goes. I ordered everything from the outlet store, so I have a few weeks to ponder this some more.