Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Getting back into vinyl, I have a question

So I’m getting back into vinyl. I have

M80’s v2
Denon 6300H
Pro-ject carbon duet
Pro-ject tube box S2

So I wasn’t happy with the sound of my turntable connected to the built in phono amp in the Denon. So I bought a Pro-ject tube box S2 (just ordered some Mullard tubes to replace the stock tubes) and I have it plugged into one of the analog inputs into the Denon.

I guess my question is, am I defeating any purpose by having the turntable plugged into a tube amp and then into the Denon?

Thanks

No. The distortion of your vinyl and the distortion of the tube amp will be amplified nicely by the Denon.

Okay thanks. I was, for some reason, worried that having that tube amplified signal going again through another amp might negate any positives

Lots of people actually very much enjoy such a tube arrangement. Hopefully the tubes add enough for your liking.

The phono input in the Denon is a pre-amp which goes to the main amp.
You just replaced that pre-amp with an external one (I'm sure you know to plug it into a line input not the phono input).

The $100,000 (or maybe just the cost of your phono amp) questions is ... has it solved what you were unhappy with?

Hello Vassillios

Your pro ject is a phono stage. I assume it has load settings so you can tune it for your cartridge. If you have a stylus gauge, you can adjust the tracking force of your table. Proper tracking force and load settings will make a big difference.

What kind of cartridge are you using?

Your system should sound very good. There is a big difference in audio quality between a well recorded record and a poorly recorded record. I don't know your music taste, but one of the best recorded records (in either 33 or 45) is Dream with Dean (Martin). It is wonderful! Another beautifully recorded classic is Getz/Gilberto.

Mullard makes a great 12ax7 ( I assume that's the required tube).

Enjoy the music. Don't let those who know it all rain on your enjoyment of tube/vinyl beautiful music.

2x6, I really enjoy those vinyl selections on Spotify. Every vinyl distortion is digitized perfectly and reproduced wonderfully by my M2s and active LFRs. I'm confessin' that I love you living room and basement systems.

Hi Mary! How is your soundbar working out?

Mojo, Although I'm with you (that vinyl and tubes color the sound), a lot of people like it. I personally think that's because both vinyl and tubes compress the music (in different ways). This hides many limitations in other parts of the system.

There is also something very zen about interacting with your music ... like placing the needle for that one song you want or turning over the record (at least it got your lazy butt out of the seat). And you gotta admit that soft glow of tubes is pretty cool looking ... you can just see it warming up the sound ...

Yup. I like it. I've said it before a few times I like it. I'm quite envious of Philip and his tubes and vinyl. I also listen to iHeart radio vinyl channels on my M2s. There's an otherworldliness to them.

That's why I wish it was available as processing you could apply to any source. Then no one needs to have any actual vinyl.

Exactly, Charles!

You can get circuits to do it ... but you do loose the zen experience of being physically involved with your music ... and of course the glow which might add that little something with a bit of warmth a night.

Exactly, Richard! So we need fake tubes and a tonearm on the DSPs.

No, gentlemen, you cannot get digital circuits to recreate the magic of tubes and vinyl. Excel Audio, in Newport Beach (Mike Rose's shop), has a range of digital DACs and streamers ranging from the Gold Note and Aurender low ends to the $200,000 dcs digital stack. (The surprise of the bunch is the Line Magnetic CD player whose DAC is silly good for about $2000!)

Anyway, at audio nights, the rule is NEVER play vinyl first and then digital, because even the best digital cannot match high end vinyl systems.

As to compression, a good cartridge can reproduce highs past what we are able to hear. The magic is in the mids, and that is where even high-end digital cannot compete with a good tube/vinyl system.

Now, as to tubes, I have heard solid state systems which are incredibly good. They excel in the bass regions. It's not that tubes are unable to play low, the problem is that some solid state amps simply control the bass better. My personal favorite is the Soulution solid state amp. The first time I heard one, playing a pair of Wilson Sasha DAWs, my first impression was eh ... that lasted about 2 seconds, then ... wait a minute ... followed by love. Dagostino amps and preamps are wonderful.

Clearly, not all tube amps can compete at this level. I had an Audio Research Reference 110 and LS28 preamp. It was very nice, but I traded up (in quality, down in price) to a Line Magnetic 845 Premium integrated. But, nice as it is, you have to go LAM or BAT or VAC to get the level of audio nirvana.

However, considering normal 2 channel amps without DSP and without active speakers, most commercial integrated solid state amps, in my opinion, simply do not reproduce music with the vitality and 'you are there' quality that even modestly priced tube amplifiers are capable of. I disagree that the difference is attributable to distortion. Although pumping enough negative feedback can make even an undistinguished solid state amplifier produce stunningly low distortion levels, those specs do not translate into stunningly beautiful music.

So many of these discussions are based on distillations of audio magazine reviews and partisan discussions on audio websites (some of which can get pretty nasty!) [edit - and of course those of you who are electrical engineers may simply know too much ). If you have the opportunity to audition high quality tube/vinyl systems and set aside preconceptions, you might be extremely surprised by the results.

So, Vassillio, enjoy your vinyl with your tube phonostage!!

Please report back.
Best regards to all and stay safe and healthy!!!

PS modestly priced tube integrated amplifiers that I have listened to and liked, a lot, are the Line Magnetic EL34 (I think 40 watts per side) around $2,000, Rogers Audio EL34 amp (more), Quads.

My favorite tube amp is not an ultra buck unit, but the Luxman 4x KT88 amp with a Luxman tube preamp. This combo is not cheap, probably can be had for a bit over $10,000, but friends, this is true music magic and I wish I had known about it before I chose the LM845P.

Never understood the expensive obsession on DACs ....
Most of this stuff comes from someone’s interest in making money....

Although I can explain my beliefs in fairly concrete terms (and I may in a different post)
We are kind of in religious territory and I’m not here to convert you ....
So, regardless of who is right, the real question is

“does it make you happy?”

If so, enjoy it ...

Most of everything comes from someone's interest in making money.

I agree, it's religious territory until you listen to different systems. Now, some may prefer blue and some yellow, some chocolate and some vanilla. You sure can't talk someone out of a taste preference.

Ultimately, you stated the matter perfectly: "does it make you happy?"

So, we live in a golden age, best of all worlds to pick from at all price levels.

I was always afraid it was too good to last.

That's the audiophile obsession kicking in Phil. It's never to good to last. Our tastes and likes are too random. Or mature too quickly. As long as it makes you happy, or has a sound you enjoy for the time being. That's all that matters.

Later changing the tubes will relate to a whole new Amp. without the big expense of a new unit.

As others have already pointed out, you're all good with how you have things connected. As 2x6 mentioned, it would be good to know which cartridge you're using and where you have things set on the phono pre-amp.

One of the many things I have learned over the years when it comes to audio is that sometimes you just need to say: If you're happy and it sounds good to you, that's all that matters. Different rooms, different music choices, different experiences, they all contribute to us hearing "differently". It's akin to me saying that I prefer German sports cars (Porsche's in particular) to anything else out there, but someone may prefer an Italian exotic, or doing back-road peel outs in a classic American muscle car. All different, but all equally valid.

I'm into vinyl today because I've always been into vinyl. I grew up with it and never left. Yes, I did pick up a CD player sometime in the late 80's, but I never stopped playing or buying LPs. One big benefit when I was in high-school and university is that the CD age brought with it a slew of people dumping their record collections for pennies, so it was easy to buy 20 used LPs for the price of a single new CD. That in turn exposed me to all kinds of music that I had never experienced before, expanding my musical knowledge and understanding of completely new genres. It also allowed me to amass a 15k+ collection that takes up an entire room of our house!

The physical aspect of record cover artwork, putting an LP on the turntable, brushing the stylus and record, and cueing up the lead-in groove are all tangible things and we are connected to them, so I believe we listen more closely, with more concentration compared to picking out the latest track and pressing play on a streaming App.

I also understand the technical deficiencies of vinyl, tubes, etc. better than most people, and frankly I don't care much. LPs and tubes have far higher distortion than digital and solid-state in almost all cases. I can measure it and I can hear it. But the much more benign even order distortion, crosstalk, etc. is much easier to audibly swallow than odd-order harmonics or digital compression.

That being said, I do firmly believe that loudspeakers should accurately portray that distortion, that noise, those imperfections. I'm not a fan of EQ, filters and tone controls, and I don't want that in a loudspeaker that has a flavor or colors the sound. Upstream, I know I'm listening to vinyl, and I want my loudspeakers to portray that as clearly as if I am streaming something on Tidal.

One final point about tubes: I have no issues using them in small-signal applications such as in phono stages or pre-amps. While tubes cannot be as quiet in those applications as the best solid-state, they can perform very will with distortion below the limits of audibility. Amplifiers, however, are a different matter. The output transformers used on most tube amplifiers interact directly with the loudspeaker electrically, causing variations in frequency response that will depend on each specific amp and speaker pairing. That leads me back to wanting my loudspeakers to be free of tone controls and a tube amp connected to a loudspeaker is exactly that.

At the end of the day, enjoy yourself! Music is FUN!

Andrew

Yup Andrew. That's why the Eternal One made chocolate and vanilla.

May I ask, what turntable, phonostage and cartridge are you using?

VPI TNT Jr. Mk.II Turntable
VPI JMW 12.6 Tonearm with two arm wands
Audio Technica AT33PTG/II Cartridge (Stereo)
Shelter 501 Mk.II Mono Cartridge (Mono)
Phase Tech T-3 MC Step-up transformer
Sonic Frontiers SFP-1 Phono Pre-amp

Beautiful system. I've always liked Sonic Frontiers kit, I used to have a SFL-1 preamplifier.

So, you have tubes in your system!

rrlev,

If you really want to hear what is recorded deep into the vinyl and with no distortion, just perfection; pick up a Whest Audio phono stage. The least expensive one starts around $2K and it is very good. But if you really want to dig deep into the recording, you can get into the upper level units they make. It is quite amazing what you will hear.

This is not tube stuff; its all hand selected and matched discreet solid state gain stages with all hand selected Clarity capacitors, phase aligned internal wiring etc. and the main board is mounted in a full suspension within the chassis. Dual toroid power supplies, its really good equipment.

Mojo has threatened a visit to hear, but I don't want to be responsible for causing his audio habit to go to the next financial notch.

I need to visit a lot of folks once this madness is over. You're definitely on the list, Slim.

Andrew is talking my language.........

VPI Ares3 turntable with custom made medium durometer rubber isolation feet
SME Series IV tone arm with a custom built VTA micrometer head
Audio Technica vintage AT-20ss moving magnet with NOS Beryllium Super Shibata
Ortofon A 90 moving coil
Whest Audio custom built PS.30 RDT SE 2019

Slim,

I'd love to hear it sometime. I'm sure it's incredible!

Rich

If any of you make it to Southern California, after the plague passes, PM me and you'll be welcome to listen fo some interesting systems!

I'll throw something on the grill as well!

Phil,

If I ever get the theater up I will extend the same to you.
Except for sources we will have very similar systems for the LFRs.

Rich

Thank you! That would be great.

Yup, there are some tubes in there. Not for any particular reason, other than I wanted to try it out in a phono stage. I purchased it used from a guy in the US many, many years ago...well before the vinyl resurgence began and hence for peanuts. Like much of my system, I tend to hang on to things for a long, long time if they continue working well!