Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M50 to M5HP upgrade expectations

Hello Everyone, I have recently modernized my 2.0 stereo system and am considering trading in my M50 V2 for the M5HP. With the advent of Hi Res streaming, the unbelievable amount of material available on these services and a few new pieces of equipment, (yea, I know, I'm way behind here) I find myself a much more critical listener than I was in the past. Not that I don't love my M50's, I do, but I'm finding myself sitting and listening now and I'm wondering what I could gain from this change not only in overall sound quality but also in terms of soundstage and the possibly more flexibility in placement.

I love my M50v4. I was listening to them this morning in 2.0 with my cassette deck plugged directly into my ADA-1000. I was taking a break from my active LFR1100s with five sealed Axiom subs, and 12,000 peak Watts of Axiom amplification. I was taking a break from my M2OW, M5OW and EP125s too.

To sum up, I was taking a break from the higher spatial resolution and fidelity offered by the Axiom models that have (a) dedicated mid-range driver(s) and returning to the laid back standard definition of the M50v4.

Although I'm pretty sure that you wrote this in some kind of code, I think I get it.

Yeah...I've written extensively about the differences between M3 and M50 vs. all the other Axioms on these boards. The M3 and M50 are of different tonal character than all the rest but they offer similar imaging and soundstage. I love the M50 compared to the M3 because it's very linear. No bass boom.

Both are very nice for mellow listening but cannot reveal the level of detail the other Axioms do. That's the difference between a dedicated mid-woofer driver and a woofer that doubles as a mid-woofer.

I'd be curious to know your thoughts if you ever do get the M5s.

Well, I keep telling myself that I'm not getting new speakers but I also know that once I start reading, asking questions and looking at pictures of anything I'm currently obsessing over the purchase is inevitable. I see me do it all the time. So I will let you know.

Yeah, stop day-dreaming and get cracking. You are not likely to regret it.

Interesting question - I hadn't thought about M50 to M5HP comparison before but it makes a lot of sense.

I have never heard M50's but still really enjoy my M40's. As Mojo hinted at, Axiom speakers have always been two "sound families" - M3/M40/M50 and M2/M22/M5HP/M60/80/100 - although I'm never sure if M50 really belongs in the first family since the frequency response spec suggests more of a 2-1/2 way than a 2-way.

In terms of overall frequency response it's going to be a toss-up between the M50's and the M5HP's, but the M5HPs really impressed me when it came to imaging/soundstage and ability to stay clear & tight when playing complex music at medium volumes (not super-quiet and not wall-of-sound either).

In my case I traded M60v4's in on the M5HPs and am very happy with the result. I had been alternating between the M60's and Ascend Sierra-1's, preferring some aspects of each, but once the M5HP's arrived I pretty much left them up all the time.

The next step in these plague-ridden times is probably giving Mojo a phone call and asking him to hold his phone up to the speakers while he switches between M50 and M5HP's.

I recently setup my old pair of M50s in my parents house and they were blown away. Actually, I was too a little. They have a semi-perfect listening environment, at least much better than mine. It's funny, this whole time I had one of the best speakers from Axiom and didn't know it, imho. Full disclaimer i've heard the M5HP on walls, not the bookshelves and I'm now using the M100s. The 100's sound amazing, especially at higher levels.

John, I've never heard the M40s but the M50v4 sound like M3s with more linear bass at any level and more linear mids at higher levels. They can go a good 6-9 dB louder than the M3 before audible distortion sets in. I really like them. Maybe you ought to try a pair.

Interesting. The M40 has the "more linear bass" aspect (the bass response is extraordinarily deep and flat) but midrange is probably a bit less clear than the M3's. I haven't directly compared their ability to play loud but my impression is that my older M40's are probably less good in that regard than current M3's.

I'm still trying to clear out enough space and time to finish setting up the LFR's, maybe I can revisit M50s if/when that ever happens.

Thanks to all the great advice and input here I’ve placed the order for the M5OW’s! Very excited! I started out 2 weeks ago sending photos of my pool table to JC. He took them to the finishing dept and they sent me four samples to try to match the table. The samples Axiom sent me were very impressive. I was expecting just little blocks of wood, maybe a couple of inches square, but Axiom sends these 8x10 inch blocks of wood with corners cut, magnetic grills and Axiom logos on them. They look like the front panels of M2’s.
And did I mention they are trading in my M50’s? They’re giving me back almost 50% of what I paid for them over 10 years ago! Unbelievable!
This week I have to work on wire. This will be an in wall installation with crawlspace crawling so I’ll need a good permanent wire installation. I’m really not a believer in “super wires”, I’m looking at Blue Jeans Cable and Monoprice, 12 ga I guess. The distance from the furthest speaker to the amp is less than 20 feet. Any input on that would be appreciated.

Mike, that's some great news! What finish did you get?

Trevor, was it the Blue Jeans cable that didn't sound very good on your M5s and my M50s? Mike, Trevor and I recently did some cable listening.

Mojo, Cherry with Boston Cherry finish. There was a lot of great colors/woods that I wanted but ultimately I needed to try to get close to the pool table color which this does. There is a big difference between this and the Boston Cherry vinyl on my M50's. Looking forward to hearing your cable recommendations since you just recently went through this.

This is all you need to know about speaker wire.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

If you need something in-wall, it must be Class 2 rated but prices usually aren't much different from typical copper wire cost, usually $1/ft or a bit less.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2817

In your case given the short runs, 14 AWG would be fine even down to a 2ohm speaker load.

I would think the first dividing line between speaker families would have to be the design.
2 way vs 2.5 vs 3 way
By far the two largest differences i've noticed in listening to bookshelves (2 way or 2.5) vs. floorstanding (2.5 way or 3 way) has been the volume of sound (easily attributed to cabinet size) and clarity, detail (likely attributed to the dedicated midrange in a 3 way system).
The 2.5 way designs always sounded more laid back as Mojo described, the 3-way designs always sounded more detailed (this includes some home A/B blind tests just FYI). If you consider today's Atmos systems, how many more dedicated location speakers does it take to reproduce a more realistic effect?
It seems that the bottom line is the more drivers you have, the more realistic the sound could be. Kind of makes sense. In the real world, we hear sounds off of every echo, every surface. To reproduce that effect, you would need tiny drivers covering every square inch of a room to reproduce reality, or close to it.
https://news.softpedia.com/news/Tra...st-Expensive-Speaker-System-118692.shtml

Mike, nice finish! You will really enjoy listening and looking at them.

I don't really have any cable recommendations. There was a particular Blue Jeans cable that Trevor and I both tried which didn't sound right to us compared to others. It was very obvious BTW.

This is what I've been using with all my systems. I use 10 AWG with my active LFR1100 woofers, 12 AWG with the mids and 14 AWG with the tweeters. I use 12 AWG with the M5OW and bookshelves, M50, M3, and M2. I used 10 AWG with the M100s before they were stolen.

https://www.amazon.ca/KnuKonceptz-Kable-Gauge-Copper-Speaker/dp/B0076SFE9Q/ref=sr_1_2?crid=27OT166MGKHJS&dchild=1&keywords=knukonceptz+10+gauge+speaker+wire&qid=1614704516&sprefix=knuconce%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-2

Chess, it is very true that more drivers leads to more realistic vocals and instruments. However, I've found more drivers makes for more difficult acoustic disappearance. The active LFR1100s are the exception with proper spacing and listening distance. Maybe the passive LFRs too but I really don't know.

While my buddy loved the surreal soundstage of the M5s, he was totally seduced by the M100 realism of vocals and instruments. He was willing to trade off acoustic disappearance for better instrument fidelity. If I had no choice, I'd sacrifice some instrument fidelity for acoustic disappearance. Fortunately, with the active LFR1100s, I don't have to sacrifice anything. Not only do I get acoustic disappearance, I get higher instrument and vocal fidelity than the M100 or any other speaker I've heard.

Having said all that, the M100s are certainly no slouch. Canes made them disappear in his room so I suppose it is possible.

Mojo, does he need in-wall cable? ... if so it should be rated for that ...

It's a fire hazard thing which IMO really doesn't matter too much if the run is short and stays in-room but there could be problems if it was discovered.

Current plan in the HT is to run any possible on-wall bed surround (M5ow) with a short run to a connector just below it in the floors wiring channel. That way I can run the rest of the run using regular 12AWG. You can do the same thing just above the floor.

BTW haven't look yet but if 12AWG Class 2 is hard to find you can get smaller gauge and double it up... I have 4 wire Class 2 speaker wire which would work fine for this.

Mojo, I’ll check that out. I think what I’m using now is monoprice.

Mike, Rich is right. I forgot you are planning to put it in the wall. The cable I suggested uses PVC insulation which isn't great in fires. My cables are out in the open.

As mentioned, and linked to above, Class 2 is required. Monoprice has decent prices for it.
14 AWG is more than sufficient for those length of runs.

We aren't talking about the same thing here. You are trying to compare your systems to what i'm talking about and they aren't even remotely equivalent.
Literally, picture a room where every square inch is covered by a tiny speaker driver so maybe 10,000 drivers, floor, ceiling, walls, everything! You cannot compare how the sound from each one of those drivers in that room is somehow related to your 7.2? home system, or even an Atmos system of 11.4.4 and how you believe it sounds seamless or disappears in room. I'm not saying that a 11 driver speaker somehow sounds more surround or natural than 9 or 7 or 5. I am talking about a very exponentially larger concept.
A more equivalent comparison would be to ask, what sounds more like a surround realistic sound? A two speaker stereo setup? Or a 11.4.4 Atmos setup?
What sounds more surround than an Atmos setup?
Maybe a 10,000 driver filled room...

I once read about an experimental room setup with this concept in mind and it makes sense. Our ears hear reflections from everywhere. Even a 11.4.4 setup isn't "everywhere' within a room. It doesn't generate sound from every source location but rather creates sound and is reflected off of angles. The mere point of adding more speakers in Atmos is to add more potential point source locations and thus improve the surround experience. Take that to the next step like they have been doing for the last 20 years. First 4.1 then 5.1 then 7.1, 7.2, 9.1, 9.2, 11.2.....where will we be in 20 more years?
10,000.100.200?

The blue jeans is in wall rated.

As far as cabling goes I would run #12/2 or #16/4 and call it a day.

My personal fave after testing and installs is provo 16/4. We parallel down to 13/2.

Box of 500’ runs $165 or so here.

Mojo we hated the 18/4 licorice cable.

Just saw this.
Hilarious.
Trev you need to get some of these installs in there!
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/my-11-4-12-franken-atmos-living-room.2321785/

Love that new pic btw.
Reminds me of Jay Onrait on Sportscentre.

Ok, Thanks. I'm curious about what you said regarding Blue Jeans Cable. I was under the impression they were one of the better ones.

Lol. Kinda does share my smirk.

That install is nuts. I stick to 7.2.4 or so. I have to warranty support them afterwards! Lol.

Chess, I was referring to speakers with multiple mids and tweeters. I have found those kinds of speakers don't disappear as well but do offer more realistic vocals and instruments. The exception is the active LFR1100s.

I'm running 10awg in wall to all of my speakers.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0817JQLPR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Just got notification that the new M5OW’s have shipped!! Still feeling a a little apprehensive about giving up my trusty old M50’s. According to Fedex I should have them Friday, just in time to spend Saturday with them. I’m hoping the M5’s blow me away to the point where I never look back.

Mike, I can't speak for your M50v2 but I have the M50v4 as I said before and I love it. I also love the M5 which is higher fidelity and resolution. It's quite incredible how both of them can be so satisfying.

Do try to drop the tweeters of the M5 below ear level and you will be rewarded.

Mojo, fidelity and resolution are definitely my goal, and it was your exceptional ability to describe these speakers, and your advice, that pulled the trigger. These M5's will flank a bay window, like yours. There is an identical window at the opposite end of the room through which I expect to see the acoustic images floating.

Well, unfortunately my speakers have been stuck in Tennessee since the 16th on some crazy customs hold. It started out with Fedex calling me asking me all kinds of crazy questions. They even wanted me to explain what materials the speakers were made out of. I referred them back to Axiom who, from what I understand, answered all their questions yet the speakers are still sitting in Tennessee. I live in New Jersey. This is my 4th Axiom order and I've never had an issue before this. Hopefully they will arrive sometime this week.

That's crazy, Mike. I'm in VA and mine come through Tennessee too and I've yet to have any issue other than FedEx forgetting to scan the boxes for tracking updates. Do you still have the contact number for FedEx?

My M5s will be going through there soon. I hope I don't run into the same issue.

I do still have the Fedex phone number, maybe I should call since I am basing this info on the tracking number updates. I contacted Axiom again yesterday morning and they said they would look into it. I was originally scheduled for delivery last Friday.

I'm curious what else they would think it possibly could be. Certainly not the first time they've had Axiom speakers shipped through there.

I've had problems like that before. One where a shipment of about 12 speakers took about a month and a half to start trickling in ... it took many calls to FedEx and Axiom to figure out what was going on. Something about being on International hold till the paper work on what was in the boxes is received/found. Axiom gave me the impression that this was not the first time (Deb didn't sound happy). Anyway after many more calls with FedEx (each about an hour of frustration, probable reason of Axiom unhappiness) ... I'd receive a few boxes a week until there was only one out in the wild ... After what I remember being more then a month ... FedEx decided that maybe a trace was in order. Eventually it was declared forever lost in the Bermuda Triangle of FedEx International holding.

Now I just pray whenever my boxes head through FedEx International that they find their way and not be trapped forever circling in ice encrusted foggy waters searching for a way out.

I'm sure they will show up day now ...

ha ... another FedEx story ...
On one shipment, received tracking email "delivery tomorrow by 8pm, signature required". Ok, So I stuck around and mid day I get another email. "exception: delivery tomorrow by 8pm, signature required". And again I stuck around ... and another email "exception: delivery tomorrow by 8pm, signature required". And I'm like to hell with this and go about my normal day .. well that email came everyday for like a week and a half at which time an email came "delivered, signed for by owner". I opened the door and there it was ... wonder who signed for it

I kind of think of FedEx tracking email as an indication of best intent ... sometimes ...
What gets me is when you get an email "exception: package not delivered, owner not home" ... when you were ...

This happened enough that once I saw the FedEx truck drive up, so I open the door and stood there waiting. The truck stayed there for a few minutes and then turned around and left. A minute later I receive an email "exception: package not delivered, owner not home".

We've been having issues with UPS changing our current address to our old address. I have been down to UPS several times and spoken with the shipping managers on numerous occasions and explained that our house is new construction and we are currently living there and the address on our packages is valid. They have typed it into their computer several times and every time we have another package coming we get notification that they have updated our address to our old address and have delivered our packages there. Needless to say, I have everything shipped to my office address now.

Mike, any news on the delivery status of your M5s?

They finally released the dangerous boxes yesterday. Tracking says they have been delivered. I'll find out in another hour and a half when I get home

Well, Fedex brought me one speaker. It's beautiful, but it definitely needs a mate. Fedex tracking still says delivery by 8 pm today, it's 10. Hopefully tomorrow so I can install Sunday.

Glad you like the wood Boston Cherry. It would be cool to see a photo of your M50 Boston Cherry vinyl next to the M5.

I love the discount for the 21 day wait but the actual waiting and anticipation drives me nuts...

I'm going to have to build a small temporary wall to mount the one m5 because if I don't my child would probably run into it. I may even go ahead and frame it out and get the redheads drilled into the concrete.


Mike, let us know when the other speaker arrives. I'm sure it's frustrating they only delivered one.

Mojo, not sure how to do that but I'll give it a try

I took the 21 day discount also but so far it's turned into a 31 day discount. Not Axiom's fault. Sunday morning and still no second speaker. Perfect rainy day to install and play with these too. Looks like it'll have to be next weekend.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/j2WjqmYVNJH8idbb6
Maybe this link will work. The color of the M5 is almost identical to the M50 but it is just slightly richer, more saturated. And the M5 finish has a nice satin sheen whereas the M50 is flat. The M5 is definitely prettier and a big upgrade over the vinyl. Enough that I almost wish there was more wood surface on the face and less grill.

Looks real nice. Especially with your floors. I like the Axioms better with the grills off.

Me too, however the house decorator does not.
This is where theyre going
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JmtnddGJmy4DKw3i9

Family room system. Matches the kitchen cabinets the room is open to.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wfdKiQkbQzbiCoCEA

They're going to look real nice on either side of the window. You'll get a real nice soundstage 10 to 12 feet out.

Naked Axioms grow on people. I've thought of making some of mine more pop art-like by painting the drivers.

The wife and I spend a lot of friday nights shooting pool and listening to music. The pool table is about 20 feet from that wall. When I sit on the couch and listen I’m at about 12 feet, which never seems far enough for the M50’s.
I’m going to try leaving the grills off the M5’s and hit the wife with the “pop art” thing.

Aye. Ask the wife to imagine them with Alizarin Crimson woofers and Burnt Umber mid-woofers. Cadmium Red or Cadmium Yellow tweeter grills would make them pop!

Do your M50s sound like the stage is too close to you?

Lol... I'll give that a try. Yes, when shooting pool the M50's are great. But when I want to just sit on the couch and listen, which I often do after dinner with a little bourbon, the soundstage is too close and the vocals always collapse into the left speaker.

The v4 is tuned to present the soundstage from the front plane of the speakers towards the back...in your case right out the window. v2 and earlier are different. I'm not sure about v3.

Presumably you don't face the TV when you sit on the couch to listen to the M50s. You may be sitting too far to the left.

I sit in the far corner of the couch, sorta facing the speakers. I'm definitely too far left but there's no room to move the couch back. My wife wants to get a chair and a little bar/server once the M50'S are gone. I'm hoping I can convince her to put the chair in a good listening position. She thinks I'm crazy when I talk about audio details.

The chair needs to be across from the window at the midpoint between the M5s. Sit her in that chair and for the first time ever, she'll be exposed to what stereo imaging is.

Speaker #2 has been released from it's quarantine and has arrived!! Not likely I will have time to install till Saturday.

The authorities separated the suspect speakers so they don't discuss the contraband and give statements by consensus.

Finished the temporary mounts for the m5s. Now I’m just waiting for that magical shipping notification...

Let us know how those M5s sound.

Sure will. I hope yours behave and don't get detained.

Hopefully mine ship out this week. I’ll be curious to see how long TN detains them.

O. M. G. !! Mojo you were so right! I don’t have your eloquent descriptive abilities so I’m just gonna say these speakers kick freakin ass! Your analogy was perfect, like going from 720 p to 4k. The detail, clarity, soundstage is amazing! Listening to the M50’s I always thought “how much better could it be”, well, apparently it can be a lot better. All my agonizing over whether to trade or not was squashed in the first 3 minutes. I played Jimi Hendrix Purple Haze, loud, and it was like I was hearing it for the first time. Norah Jones, Jeff Buckley, the detail stunning. Everything I threw at them sounded amazing, even some old concert recordings that arent that great and I usually can’t turn up too loud. These speakers play loud with 0 distortion and little effort from my amp. They are also really good at playing at low volumes. It’s hard to describe the difference but it’s kinda like the M50’s seemed to move further away as you turned down the volume, the M5’s don’t do that, they get quieter but they still stay up front, if that makes any sense. I am so glad I did this. I’m not even sad to see the M50’s go anymore.
I had planned 2 or 3 hours for the installation and it took all damn day. For some reason this room is built differently than the rest of the house (I have 5 in and on wall Axioms in my family room), there is no access to the wall cavities from the crawl space. I’ve never seen anything like it, the room is not an addition so I don’t know why it’s different from the rest of the house. After spending a lot of time down in that dungeon, and a lot of time “ negotiating” a new plan with the house decorator, I ended up just running the wire down to the baseboard and out the wall through a coaxial wall plate. It was the cleanest option. She wasnt thrilled but said “I guess I’ll get used to it”, lol.
So, CanesFanlnVA you are in for quite a treat! Detail, clarity, soundstage, spaciousness, and, I have no idea where all that bass is coming from! I’m sure mojo can throw in a few more descriptive terms if you need them but bottom line is, you’re going to be happy.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/U5StcgLKgukC5TMn6

They’re a tad higher on the wall than I wanted but there was compromising that had to take place with the decorator. And We do listen to them a lot while shooting pool.

Mike,

I’m glad you are enjoying them. That makes me even more excited to get mine. I’m hoping they’ll ship tomorrow or Tuesday so I might have them before the weekend. Mine will be set up as surrounds but I’d love to talk the wife into letting me set up a pair upstairs. I should also be putting in my order for a power amp in a few weeks as well.

They look really good on your wall.

I have yet to setup the M5s as the main speakers (in the HT they are used as surrounds). Since I m starting the HT wall rebuild soon I think I’ll move them up stairs to try in the family room.

There they will have to fill some pretty impressive shoes as the quality of sound from the family rooms M2/EP500 combo is amazing ... it a surprise to get such a full and clear sound from such a small speaker ... more so then even the actives as you don’t expect it.

Alone I expect the M5 to out perform the M2 but when combine with the EP500 ... we will see

I don't want to influence your opinion Rich so I won't remark about how the M5s sound more real than the the M2s regardless of subwooferage. It took about 25 hours of playing the M5s before I could say they sound better.

Mike, I'm very happy for you. I should point out you weren't comparing the M50v4 with the M5s. I think your M50s are v2 or v3. I still really like the M50v4 and wish I could switch any Axiom speaker with a dedicated mid to the low def sound of the M50 at times.

I'll also just repeat that the M50 and M3 sound like 480p and the M2 and M5 like 720p. The M100 is 1080p and the active LFRs are 4K.

Mojo, I’m sure you wouldn't do that

Bad news, they still haven't shipped. Good news, they should ship in the next 5 business days barring any delays.

Listen closely and you might hear the woofer and mid-woofer alignment is wonky at first. When I first heard this effect, I thought someone at Axiom messed up. But I kept playing them and it cleared beautifully. The next two pairs were already broken in. My OW were also wonky but I let them play for a weekend while I was out cavorting. When I came back, they were peachy.

I'll run them as mains like I did the Qs to help speed up the break in process.

Can the M5OW handle the ADA-1500? They are rated at 300 watts RMS and the ADA-1500 is rated at 325 RMS into 8 ohms. Would the extra 25 watts negatively affect the m5s?

They're rated at 300W nominal but they don't sound great at that power level. It just means they won't ignite. Practically it doesn't matter because no one will play them at that nominal level.

You won't have any problem particularly given you are using them as surrounds.

For those who don't play music at party levels, the ADA-1000 is enough in a small space like my 1900 cu ft living room. But the 1000 doesn't have the peak power capability to enjoy them loud. My 1000 kept cutting out during peaks of well-recorded material. The 1500 had absolutely no problem in any room.

The only time the 1500 shut down was when I had them stacked one on top of the other and wired in parallel. Peak levels were hitting 109dBC at 14 feet away and that's more than plenty. My ears certainly can't handle that. I had my shooting muffs on. It's also a very unreasonable load and certainly below the minimum published spec of the 1500.

I didn't notice this. Question, when people speak of leaving speakers playing for days to break them in, does volume matter?

I'm not sure if this is correct, but I only turn them up loud enough to create some excursion with the speaker. I've never cranked it up just loud enough to see the speaker moving.

Speakers shipped earlier. Probably won't receive them until next week but they are ready to hook up as soon as they arrive.

I hope they don't get quarantined

Me too. I'm curious to see if they suspect my speakers of espionage.

Mike, I couldn't see the drivers moving when I let them play. They were playing at reasonable listening levels. If you want to get technical, 85dBC peaks at 10 feet away.

Yours may have been broken in. Or you weren't listening carefully enough.

Gotcha...Thanks!

They are in TN. Lets see how long they hold them captive.

The pro of TN is that they will come broken in so no burn-in necessary. The con is that the amount of delay will depend on how long Customs parties with them.

One is in town and the other is still in TN.

The one in town isn't on the truck for delivery even though it has been here since Friday. The other speaker wanted to see more of America so they are shipping it to NC first. On the bright side, they didn't get held hostage in TN.

Good lord, this amazes me

They were added to their midday deliveries and both miraculously showed up today.

Nice!