Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions receiver calibration

I installed my M5HPOW LCR speaker set up yesterday. I ran the system for a few hours on the receivers old settings. Then before retiring for the evening I ran the Onkyo (TX-NR757) calibration with the remote mic located in the centre listening position. The new settings had all three front speakers crossing over at 40Hz, the old satellites at 80Hz and the sub at 110Hz. I watched Harry Potter and the deathly hallows part 2 today and felt that there was issues with hearing the higher frequencies. In the second scene inside the cottage Luna is admiring a wind chime made of sea shells, I couldn't hear a thing. I continued to watch and felt some voices were hard to make out. I changed the crossover to 80Hz for everything and it made some improvement. however I still cant hear the chimes in the second scene. When I look at the speaker settings I see no equalization changes, just dB level changes.

Could someone try this same scene and let me know if they hear chimes?
Suggestions for calibration? I don't know much about equalizer settings Perhaps a link to a setup instructions.

Thanks

Bill

Bill, before doing anything else, develop a reference sound. Set the left and right to play full range and turn off the sub. Turn off EQ too. Listen to some favourite music in two channel. How does it sound?

set to 2.1 and turned off the sub. when you say to turn off eq? all eq settings are at 0. do you mean to play directly no processing? the left and right are playing and sounds like its coming from the centre.

Yes, turn off processing. Play some familiar music and tell us what you think.

It sounds like it's coming from the centre because that's the centre image in stereo. So that's a good start!

I couldn't find the scene. Do you have an approximate time?

Hi Cork, 2 minutes 30 seconds in.

Mojo; It seemed that it was muffled through most of the higher range, I remember that we left the grilles on, so they were removed. The higher range like violin strings are still a bit dull. The AT screen is two layers of millskin spandex.

It was distinct, but faint; it may not have been what you were expecting. I heard it clearly in both 5.1 and 2.1; and it was very short (it was even more faint 7 seconds before she touched them).
I have the DVD version of the movie. I have M5s up front and a Yamaha receiver, LR are set to small and crossed at 60 hz; center is crossed at 80 hz.

Thank you Cork.

I'm checking the Onkyo's setting under the quick menu and found the Tone levels : Bass+10 and Treble -10 for some reason. I think I need to reset everything to zero and try the AccuEQ room calibration again.

Good idea, recalibration never hurts. Treble -10 would definitely affect this situation.
Also, if you have a decent set of headphones maybe try them on the scene to get another perspective.

Just do factory reset. Start scratch and manual calibrate.

https://youtu.be/smII59oK08g

LondonCalling, what the hell is going on over there? Is all your stuff blown up or does it sound pristine like the Sirens who seduced Odysseus and his ragged men?

Thanks for the suggestions.
I did the factory reset and re-ran the AutuEQ and found that its not that accurate on distances< the left and right should have been equal distant but they werent. The sub was twice the distance away. So tomorrow I will manually set up. the distances with a tape measure and the levels with a decibel meter.

I have tried what Mojo suggested about listening to familiar music and found that the higher frequencies like a violin are not as bright as they should be. I think the screen is muffling them a bit. I will also play with the eq in the above 160 range to try and remove the muffling. If I can figure out the post a picture feature I will show the Onkyos Eq.

The sub set at twice the physical distance may be OK. There may be delay through the sub.

I don't have experience with speakers behind screens so I can't help with that other than to suggest you diddle with treble or EQ.

Manual is better, but hard to set sub distance without measuring gear.

Where you put the measurement mic and the seating fabric will skew the result in auto EQ.

Use a tripod and keep the mic away from the seating back. Ensure the mic has line of sight to each speaker.

If the seating is leather or pleather, place a towel or blanket over it near the mic so the treble isnt reduced as much by the auto EQ.

The screen shouldnt roll off that much treble. Maybe 2db above 8khz. Slightly boost it but try the other steps first. Boosting treble in a lively room is usually a bad outcome.

When you get it right you will join the 1% club. Congrats on the AT screen setup.

What in tarnation is going on?

Sorry for the delay in posting. Last night my youngest daughter needed the room to host a class on zoom and then after that the middle daughter needed to practice her masters thesis defence before presenting today. Heard back today that she passed and her thesis is being presented to the dean for top science thesis for the year at the university. Thus no progress. Tonight when I got home and I have a neck strain and tinnitus in my right ear. Can't trust my ears tonight. Luckily today I heard that my Saturday job has been cancelled and I have all day to tweak. In the mean time I have set the distances manually and used my RS sound level meter to equal the levels. The LR are set to +1.5, Centre 0, surrounds at 0 but the sub is at +6 everything is producing 71 dBA

Well...OK. We like to see a little more initiative around here when it comes to audio but given your circumstances, we'll let this one slide.

Glad you know your priorities between work and audio.

Hmmm ... master thesis vs. proper receiver calibration ... close priority call, but okay we'll give you that one.
Seriously, congratulations to your daughter (and you by extension) for the masters! Nominated for top science thesis of the year is very impressive. What's her degree in? I didn't know schools had you present for a masters; I just had to write a paper.

I had to present for my Bachelor's back in '88. My son had to present for his Bachelor's last year. He has to present for his Master's also. Maybe it's different in Canada vs. the US.

My daughter is in Earth Sciences- Water (Hydrogeology I think) . We think she made a smart choice with all this talk of impending fresh water shortages.

I reset the levels and distances manually but was still having problems with booming base ( the sub channel was set to -15) and it was still too loud and pounding. I retried the auto set up using Trevor's suggestion of a towel over the leather couch. What a difference! The treble is there and the booming base is gone. The distances came in accurately. The dialogue is now coming out of the screen smoothly and clear, sucess!

Oh yeah? Sweet! Set it to 2.1, put on well-recorded tunes, and listen for imaging and soundstage.

I had never heard of hydrogeology, a very quick search looks like it deals with groundwater optimization, and that certainly sounds like it'll be in demand, because I agree with you that water shortages will be increasing.

I also tried to look up final presentations in Canada and the US and didn't get anything; so maybe it's just a university-by-university thing.

Ok, I'll stop derailing the thread.

Mojo,
I believe you said you had an Onkyo receiver. When you go to the quick menu there are three EQ selections: auto, presets and Re-EQ. do you know what the differences are?

Not to be confused with the SirQuack menu, lol

London, I don't have those options in the Quick Menu. My Onk is later generation than yours.

Re-EQ lowers the high end. Theatre soundtracks are boosted on the high end to compensate for the movie screen.

Pre-set uses the sound mode and EQ you may have set for that particular input. You may for example have the CD input set to PLIIx.

Auto detects the source's sound mode and sets the Onk to use it. If your source is DTS HD MA, the Onk will detect it and play it in auto.

I want to know if you can "see" the soundstage and images thrown by your M5s.

I'm curious can you get this soundstage and imaging using Spotify? Track suggestion?

I have no previous experience with Spotify. Are you able to access/playback entire albums? Or only a track at a time? I’m going to speculate if the source file is intact without compression it should at least sound like a cd? Wouldn’t it be then left up to individual systems to playback that file without adding/subtracting anything?
Again, I’m just a bit out of my depth with this newer tech. I still like vinyl and cds. But I’m trying.

Jeff

https://open.spotify.com/track/4vDBJeeQCbhP9FaPPMsYkY?si=h8eDypUlSYuKUnbi56Q6YA

Listen to the relative position of instruments and voices in the above track.

Jeff, get Spotify. You are missing out big time!

https://open.spotify.com/track/1DXCKvUwlBAZJf9TuQweQb?si=4AHNtIixQE6UVXpqY0IV1A

Another good one.

Yes.

Phil Collins- I dont care anymore
https://open.spotify.com/track/24IdPCimVnJJDRuB5YSDiS?si=xPo6A18OSeybnXYSB2ipMA

Yes.

Yes.

Close, but CD is still better. Likely other factors in your setup will be the bottleneck.

No. And Yes. Spotify has options to tailor the sound or leave alone or eq. Your streaming device or bluetooth receiver will factor into playback -but for all but squint listening it is great.

If you arent using spotify you are missing out big time. The most valuable feature is the algorithm that suggests artists and songs based on your liked songs and listening choices. Creepy how good it is sometimes at guessing what you want.

Deep and wide.

https://open.spotify.com/track/0mmWeeb2mlMWte7BCPCCBx?si=3ZkExuRgQsqEskJM-j8bPw

I hear 6 front to back layers on my actives. There may be more. Crisp images all over the stage. Deep and wide.

https://open.spotify.com/track/7yw1cobuvx3WfSu0H0AwLE?si=-ORw2OzcT16QkfVZ2RSnyA

Talk of impending?
Oh, we've been there for some time. Joe Blow in Canada doesn't see it yet but Alberta will soon be one of the first.
They started trading 'water futures' funds in California recently. When people start putting a formal price on water, air is next. Nothing like pricing out the fundamentals of life so those who can't afford it will bow even more to the rich.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...t-trading-amid-growing-fears-of-scarcity

Don't get me started on the issue of water and our other broadly disturbing environmental issues.
People have no clue how bad things are.
They won't until it hits them in their own backyard and then just like everything else that happens in this world, we'll see knee jerk reaction to get onboard and find a way to repair....if it isn't already too late.

Sorry for the delay in response, work and family time have been extremely busy even with lockdown. Thanks too all!

Listened too all the tracks and some of the entire albums (Blue rodeo and the Gypsy Flamenco) made a spotify playlist to keep them in. The soundstage isn't nearly as big and enveloping as I would have hoped but I think that has more to do with speaker location and their placement in the room and lots of reflective surfaces. The screen and the LCR's are not on the short wall of the room, and the screen is also at one end of the room. I'm still enjoying them immensely though as they were purchased for home theater use and the price was fabulous for high power output speakers. Just a burning itch now to buy a pair of QS10's.


Spotify made suggestions for the list; One of the suggestions was Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions. hadn't heard it in years, didn't find any massive soundstage but certainly enjoyed the vocals in that wonderful church that I experienced so many times in my youth. Surprisingly Joey by Concrete Blonde had a bigger sound than I have ever noticed before. Tried the Rolling Stones - Undercover of the night lots of instrument separation and going across from left to right and back.

What is the preferred DSP for listening to Spotify?

Has anyone tried using Tidal? I know most Yamaha receivers have Tidal built in so your phone is more like a remote selecting tracks as the receiver get the data direct, no blue tooth desertion.

I tried Tidal super duper hi def. I couldn't hear a difference compared to Spotify Premium.

I couldn't stand the Tidal UI.

There is no "preferred" sound mode. Tidal, Spotify, etc are all streamed in stereo. When I had passives, I frequently switched to PLII and Neo. With the actives, it's almost always stereo.

London, QS10s all the way!

This gives me 180 degree envelopment with my actives and M5OW in the living room. I hear vocals, etc wayyyy out to the sides.

https://open.spotify.com/track/1CsU...iRPuf7bph-DKVOw&utm_source=copy-link

Yes, they are an amazing speaker. Just for fun, try temporarily moving your listening position closer and further from the speakers.

Mojo,

Does the Spotify premium go through your phone to your receiver? Or does it get the data directly to receiver?

What do you think about those high end streaming devices like blue sound? have you tried one yet? Or has anyone on here? I don't want to be the ginny pig. lol

The phone only acts as the controller to command the Spotify app in the receiver. The app in the receiver pulls the songs from the Spotify Cloud.

I've read on here that folks like them. I have no idea if they sound better.

Well that sounds just like how Tidal works.

They all work that way. It's called client-server architecture.

Chess, that woke me up.

I haven't tried with the active omnis. I tried with the M100s and M2s. As I reported when I tried, I found peaks to be 1 dB higher with Tidal HD. That was it. I only checked the peaks with an SPL meter because I thought Tidal as louder but couldn't be sure. I found no difference in soundstage, imaging or fidelity. I am using Firestick 4K via HDMI into my Onk.

I've also tried Amazon HD in 24-bit/96KHz. No difference that I could detect compared to Spotify Premium.

My problem isn't with Spotify. My problem is with Netflix. Why can't I get DTS HD MA quality sound with Netflix? WTF is going on? It sounds like Netflix is messing with the SQ to preserve bandwidth and maybe server space.

Bluesound is a brand. Bluos app can stream Tidal Masters over NAD and Bluesound and other enabled devices.

I am about to install a whole home system with 4 zones each with a Bluos Node 2i.

They work well and sound about as good as you can get without hunting down other bottlenecks.

Spotify can stream via bluos, bluetooth, airplay, chromecast, Spotify connect or be jacked right into a device with a cable. If you use Spotify Connect or Bluos it pulls it right from their server over a network connection. Depends on your receiver what you choose to use. The other methods above go to your device first, then the receiver.

If you cant hear the difference between tidal and spotify premium there is something going on.

Yes, Tidal Masters do sound very different.

I was being facetious, Mojo style.
Didn't actually expect a response.

What are your thoughts on the Bluesound app?
I'm considering at some point moving our legacy Sonos units on and was looking at the Blusound products as an alternative if they die or something fails. I know Axiom has one as well, but a polished feature rich interface is really a key thing. I quite like the Sonos interface but their hardware is outdated and they didn't update much in their 'new' products.

The Bluos App is fine. Very robust and more feature packed than I need. It acts as a wrapper for many services. Like 30. You can use it that way or use it to set the system or zones up then you can use spotify without it and choose the bluesound device it sends to. Same as sonos that way.

If using Tidal same.

I use it with my NAD receiver and it hasnt burped once. I forgot I had a NAS hard drive in our mechanical room. Its been a few years and bluos still had everything ready to go in a split second after clicking a track.

We are opting away from Sonos for installs because it requires a connection to the mothership to verify license/registration or it wont work. Not cool with that. Sonos will not work without an internet connection even if you are jacked right into it with an rca cable. Mind blowing..... I also dont like how they obsoleted their old products at corporate office level through software.... what a waste of electronics going to the dump.

We put a Sonos stereo in a new place and had to go back finish it because Bell hadnt got the internet connected yet. Hotspotting off a cellphone wouldnt work....

Maybe it's the Firestick 4K.

I couldn't be sure so, Mojo style, I wanted to provide a very clear answer.
,

So I got Tidal, listened to a few tracks and then the same through my apple tv/music. The Tidal sounds better, not miles better, but you can hear a difference. More detail, not louder, but more detail for sure. Doing a/b comparisons you can tell. Will be my new goto place to listen to music for sure!

Is that detail you hear in the highs? Could be dither.

Firestick 4k might ge broken

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/pass-through-audio-on-fire-stick-4k/

I've never heard of Tidal, do they have family plans like Spotify and Google? Tidal's web page doesn't seem to give pricing just a free trial. For me the family plan value at Spotify is a great deal, six accounts for $15 Cndn. per month. The wife and the four kids all get their own account on my tab. Do any receivers or equipment have Tidal software built in?

Family hi fi plan: https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003662825-Subscription-Types

Most receivers now do. Interface and features suck!

Thanks for the link, Trevor. Glad I don't have that problem.

His is messed up. Haunted.

Listening to more Tidal today. So not the best interface, actually the interface sucks, but the sound quality on the mastered tracks rock. Perhaps i'm doing this wrong. I'm using music cast on my iPhone which goes right to my Tidal playlist. I have to setup the playlist on the Tidal first though. Does this seem like SOP, or a newb error.

Do you have Tidal on your receiver? If so, you should be able to control the Tidal app on your receiver with the Tidal client on your phone.

I'm using Tidal and Qobuz, gave up on Spotify a long time ago. My streamer uses the MControl app on a tablet. Pretty good, a little fiddly. Sound quality is excellent for digital.

Just read that Spotify will be eventually going to a higher quality output. It will be an add on to a premium membership to have recordings at CD quality.

I’m still using Tidal as an experiment. It’s good in terms of sound quality , I can certainly hear the difference on certain tracks. But not all. But I dont like the user interface. Spotify is really user centric and the playlists are great.

The Tidal downloaded files play flawlessly all the time.
The Spotify downloaded files crap out on me all the time. It pisses me off. I travel a ton for work now ( I know backwards to the remote working craze these days ) and I get livid when Spotify won’t play on the plane on my headphones. Tidal always works and I remain calm.

I just realized too we have Prime on our Apple TV. So in theory I should get Amazon HD Music too I think?

You get amazon music but not HD.

Ah. Close but no dice. I’m gonna keep playing with tidal for awhile longer. If Spotify does go to CD quality I’d probably just keep that. And then purchase any must haves at the highest quality in physical or downloaded files. We ll see. CD quality is pretty good overall.

Still playing around with it. Watched the pod racing scene in SW-Phantom Menace, love the smoothness of the engine sounds as they pan across the screen and when that Tuscan Raider fires that shot and it echoes through the canyon, no regrets.

Does anyone else notice or know why when the receiver is put into Direct mode the bass is punchy and irritating but in Dolby Digital + or THX cinema or Neural the bass is smooth? just wondering if I'm missing something.

In direct, your receiver may be by-passing EQ.