Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler BRAVO CANADIAN TRUCKERS!

Love to see free people stand up for freedom!

The government response? Silly insults. Seriously unserious people with a terrible agenda.

Honk!

Silly insults are only applicable when they are aimed at very silly people. When this group indulges in their 24hr./day temper tantrums while claiming they are standing up for freedom, at the same time they seem to have no problem at all impinging on the freedoms, rights and livelihoods of others who, many times over, far outnumber them. I wouldn't describe them as "free people standing up for freedom", I believe a better description would be "deadbeats".

Comply! Obey! Yes, the reset brings us a brave new world. Those who resist are selfish fascists.

Yes, and everyone knows truckers are deadbeats. Sorry, I forgot about that - and uneducated! So few college grads, and among them, so few who majored in Non-binary puppetry. What a bunch of deadbeats!

I only just allowed my Class A CDL with doubles, triples, hazmat, tanker, and passenger endorsements lapse, because I have not gotten behind the wheel of a tractor in 10 years and I did not feel competent as a licensed "deadbeat" anymore. But when I did drive, I do not recall it being a simple job that any "deadbeat" could perform. I suppose this term also applies to others who earn a living with their hands and bodies and it can't be performed "remotely" via Zoom?

Well, I suppose the term "deadbeat" is better than "racist", the usual go-to term leveled at anyone who has independent thought, not in alignment with the most current progressive talking point.

I also have five degrees. Liberal Arts and Science. I'm so confused....

Congratulations!

However, despite your impressive credentials, you somewhat missed the point AND misread my comments. Nowhere did I ever accuse ALL truckers or anyone who worked with their hands as being deadbeats, in fact, I never even mentioned the word "truckers" at all. The focal point of my comments, The City of Ottawa, where all this started, due to road blockage, intimidation and overall inability of access, many thousands of people who live in and around the area of the blockade were unable to go to work, shop or eat resulting in a considerable number of retail, restaurant and business closures which has been going on for several days. It seemed many of those "freedom fighters"( which included some truckers)found that out as well with no restaurants open, burst into a homeless shelter demanding food from the operators which they reluctantly received. There have been several other similar incidents resulting in fines and arrests.

Add it all up, when many people were prevented from entering the area and food was selfishly absconded from those that actually needed it, anyone with half a brain would conclude that was an impingement on their rights and freedoms, wouldn't you?

Just remember Michael. It's OK for the government to shut down the economy, but if truckers peacefully demonstrate for freedom and thereby inconvenience people, well that is selfish and fascistic. Probably racist as well.

As to your degrees, that's fine, but they are probably in old-think subjects. Check your privilege. Not in gender studies, critical race theory, theory and practice of Marxist revolution, right? Doesn't that just say it all.

Double post. Sorry.

This is what you said.


Pretty hard for anyone to interpret it other than calling truckers what you wrote. If you were describing a larger demographic, you did not make mention of it, so the initial reaction to your comments was an inferred insult.

I get why you would be pissed by protestors making your life inconvenient. However, you might consider expanding your view across Canada to where the convoy started. It did not start in The City of Ottawa. The news channels reporting this trucker-organized protest are making ludicrous claims that anyone with an IQ north of 60 knows is complete rubbish. They are protesting for what they believe are very valid reasons. And they are not burning buildings, throwing bricks at cops, or looting or commandeering city blocks and courthouses.

6 - yes, old-school education, that isn't all "woke" like and has to do with silly things like finance, management, and philosophy. And I didn't start till I was in my 40's, while working full time. I do not sport a man-bun, have a trust fund, or drive a Tesla. I don't wave MAGA flags either.

Funny thing about education and degrees. Sometimes it only takes two or three additional classes to get another one...... Two more for third, etc, etc..... Education can be helpful, but it's mostly just a damn racket to transfer money to the school's administrator's pockets.

Freedom to harm yourself I'm fine with. Ride a cycle without a helmet, have it it. Putting other people at risk isn't freedom, it's selfishness. If we had this anti-science mindset a few generations ago we wouldn't all be here. I remember my mom telling me about all the people her family lost to polio; very sad. As the anti-vax crowd digs in I expect bad days to return. My only hope is that instead of heard immunity we get a Darwin-Award immunity.

Mr. C

Pfizer and Moderna vaccines aren't vaccines. Vaccines like those for polio, smallpox and measles protect against contracting the diseases. C19 vaccines clearly do not d3spite the pronouncements of fakes like Fauci, Collins, the CDC and NIH.

. 80% of new cases in Sweden occur in the vaccinated. Ar best, they are therapeutics. Of course our betters forbad therapeutics like Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine. These vaccines could not receive emergency authorization if there were effective therapeutics, that's the law here in the US.

Masks, social distancing? Not effective! See the John's Hopkins study released a few days ago.

The Canadian truckers are not stupid.

You are correct ... people should be free to weigh the risks versus benefits of vaccination. It is grotesque that the government can dictate (not mandate) that everyone must take a largely ineffective vaccine in order to participate in society.

Let's see how their upcoming push to vaccinate toddlers, infants and children goes.

I mean, after all we have long term data on motorcycle helmets. What do you think about the long term data on novel vaccines? Oh, there is none. Do you think it is responsible to dictate the entire population take a novel vaccine without a single long term study?

Think about it!

BRAVO TO THE CANADIAN TRUCKERS FOR STANDING UP FOR FREEDOM AND REASON.

>> Pfizer and Moderna vaccines aren't vaccines.
I poked around and from what I can tell it appears that this statement is incorrect, the way the COVID and polio vaccines work are medically similar.
What was interesting is that my assertion that people readily accepted them was incorrect (although the were more readily accepted than the COVID vaccines).
I came to both conclusions from these links:
https://www.pasadenahealthcenter.com/blog/coronavirus/the-polio-vaccine-rollout-vs-covid-rollout/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...cines-heres-the-problem/?sh=17fff47a1033
https://time.com/6126442/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-polio-smallpox/
(Time is relatives liberal, Forbes relatively conservative, and presumably the Pasadena Health Center is neutral; so I think it's a decent representation.)

>> See the John's Hopkins study released
If it's the same study I found, it's not a study but a "working paper"; which in the scientific community is about as official as slapping a title on this thread and publishing it. Probably more importantly it was an economic study, not a medical one.

If you have specific links, I'm game to read them, but so far I remain convinced that the Canadian truckers are just as misinformed as their U.S brethren. Definitely not working within reason, and a engaging in a misguided pursuit of freedom.

No, polio vaccines and mrna C19 vaccines are not the same. Traditional vaccines use an attenuated form of the subject virus. Mrna vaccines identify proteins in the virus spike structure. Go find what Dr.Mallone, the guy responsible for the development of the mrna vaccine, has to say about the vaccine.

I'm vaccinated by my choice. I don't fault folks who have chosen not to vaccinate. Bottom line, getting vaccinated prevents neither infection nor transmission. It may protect against severe illness. Long term consequences of these mrna vaccines? Totally unknown.

All one has to do is look at the statistics coming out of Isreal to gain an understanding of these "vaccines". Alex Berenson's last book, Pandemia is worth a read. I do not get flew shots, never have. I did however buy into the "science" and get the 2 Moderna shots. I will not under any circumstances get "boosted". People really need to open their eyes and stop believing the talking heads on cable TV. I have two friends who are very liberal, very left of center. Both were excited to get their children vaccinated, despite data showing their kids had extremely low risk. I really hope they do not regret their choice.

>> Traditional vaccines use an attenuated form of the subject virus.
There are several types of vaccines and only some of them use that approach, and it has not been used for polio since ~2000.

>> Go find what Dr.Mallone, the guy responsible for the development of the mrna vaccine, has to say about the vaccine.
Mallone was not responsible for the mrna vaccine; at best he contributed, along with thousands of other scientists.

OK. So, tell me Mr. C, how many mrna vaccines have been authorized for human use? Ever.

That's a tautology - it's always true that any new, non-generic drug, has to be new once.
Do you only ever use generics? If so, I can accept your caution.
But they've been working on mrna's for over 20 years (Mallone's contributions were in the 90's); so the research is as solid as it gets.

Hello Mr. C

That is not a tautology. All vaccines were 'new' at one point. They also underwent rigorous long term testing. Not so with the mrna vaccines. Show me any long term test results. There are none. Furthermore, mrna vaccines employ an entirely different methodology. They do not use 'dead' or attenuatated viruses in their formulation.

I accept your position, that if folks don't want to take the vaccine that's fine with you. If only the governments followed your enlightened recommendation.

Have a nice day.

Post got away from me … I’ll try again

The problem here is that to end this pandemic (slow/end this virus and it’s mutations) the majority of the world needs to either be vaccinated or have had a bout or two of Covid.

The later has some issues:
— 1) you’re much more likely to get serious ill or die from it. (Vaccinated may still get it but most likely not seriously.)
— 2) #1 then causes the health care system to get over whelm with Covid patients. I.e. our hospital would not be over whelmed if more people were vaccinated.
— 3) from #2 hospitals now don’t have the resources to handle other patients who really need the care.
— 4) the unvaccinated provide themselves as hosts … keeping it around longer and giving it Time and place to mutate and spread.

So, you’re “individual” choice effects more then you.

If the decision to vaccinate only effected you I’d be all for advising and not pushing people to vaccinate.
One more point. Although I’m not a bio guy, I’ve been assured by people I trust, who are, that these vaccines are very safe. I can say that everyone I know (at least in my circle) has vaccinated and no one has melted … no one. And knowing the experiences of people that have gotten covid before the vaccine and after … that the vaccines work extremely well.

Good evening Mr. rrlev

Yup that's the rationale. I'd like to see a warp speed program for therapeutics, a serious look at Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine.

I don't think the vaccine, mask and social distancing mandates are mandates. They are dictates.

The CDC and NHI have lost credibility but have gained enormous power. A bureaucratic iron fist. Comply or be treated like a leper, lose your job, lose your educational opportunities, lose your ability to participate in social media, in society. This is highly offensive. It is totalitarian.

How effective are masks and social distancing? Trivial. Yet they are social signals - I am on the winning team, the good team. I comply with the dictates. I am better than the yahoo insurrectionists who refuse to comply. Sort of like an arm band. The most powerfully socially divisive movement in this country's recent history fostered by an unelected bureaucracy working with demagogues. The social costs have been weighed. While a free person may see the downside as a negative, others may see the downside as a positive.

Burn the witch.

Careful my friends. Things are changing fundamentally and not for the better.

No dictates! Individual liberty. Freedom.

2x I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.

Come on Mr. rrlev

You are a top percentile player. Kindly be a bit more specific. Engage!

Im willing to engage you on all those topics but one at a time. It’s a ploy and fools game when one is taking about a specific topic an the response form the debating opponent introduces ten other topics to confuse the issue. It’s even worse when all the introduced topics are just FUD. 2x, your too smart not to know that.

2x6, you continue to pick at the vaccine development process, mostly with seeming peripheral or partial facts. For instance, (1) I've provided a link that explains that there are six types of vaccines and only two of them uses dead/live-attenuated, but you keep using those types as a major point. If I'm missing why that's important you'll have to be more specific. (2) They've been researching mrna for 50 years (since the 70s, with over 20 years of experimental research. But you repeatedly say that it's hasn't been studied. This is the first major rollout, but it's not new.
In any case, the overwhelming majority of the scientific community does not agree with the arguments you're making, so I'm going to stop with that topic.

I'll go in another direction. The planet has almost 8 billion people. I believe we're past the point where everyone can act in isolation. It appears your philosophy is a survival of the fittest/luckiest. That in the name of freedom people should be allowed to put millions of lives at risk with a high statistical certainty (high certainty/high death) because of a small statistical chance that a small sample has an adverse reaction (low certainty/low death). That seems morally wrong to me.

Honestly, this talk about liberty and freedom and I'll do as I please stuff is all for the birds.
Gee, I want to drive at 150 mph and it's my right too, correct? NO, you are a hazard to everyone around you!
And you don't want the government to mandate that you get vaccinated? Well then; don't join a military unit!
My guess is that 2X has never served in any military unit, but screams about freedom and liberty; do as some of us have done, join voluntarily a military or paramilitary unit and put your efforts where they mean something. It's one for all and all for one; something the insurrectionists surely do not understand in the least as they hit cops with hockey sticks and pointed flag poles sporting Blue Lives Matter flags and even worse, the American Flag!
What a bunch of hypocrites.
You don't wish to be told to vaccinate? Too bad; if we are to save some people from this disease and stop it from mutating, everyone needs to be vaccinated, just like they did with Polio, small pox, tetanus and many others. This antivax crap is nothing more than a political statement from those who don't want to be team players. The same group who is cries about rigged elections because they are a bunch of sore losers. Too bad, you all lost plain and simple. Now they are trying to take the ball away because they cannot win otherwise.

My good friend and ski partner refuses to get vaccinated because he thinks everything is all fake news (he gets all of his news from social media, not real media). I am 3V Moderna and after skiing with this guy all winter and riding the chairlifts with him, I didn't get a thing when he came down with Covid three weeks ago.
He is sick, and still fighting it; but thinks he's now safe with natural immunity! He has no energy, difficulty breathing and other issues. I told him that a needle prick would have not cost him two weeks of missing the best snow in years!

Hello rrlev

Let's do them one at a time. And, BTW, I do believe in what I've said.

Hello Slimpickens. We're not talking about military discipline or chain of command. Civilians are not subject to taking orders, we are enjoined to follow the law. So is our government.

Driving is a privilege. Yes, I have never driven at 150mph. That would be illegal on a public road. Your liberty is not a privilege.

I'm sorry about your ski friend. I weighed the risks v. benefits and decided to take the Pfeizer 2 shot, not the booster. Freedom of choice. I have a friend who did not vaccinate, he has had Covid 3 times, the original, delta and omicron. Omicron was fairly mild for him, the first 2 were extremely unpleasant. Thankfully, he does not seem to have suffered any lingering after effects. It is not clear he benefitted from any natural immunity, although studies (even CDC) concluded that natural immunity is between 2 and 27 times more protective than vaccination.

I have other friends who (I believe) were triple vaccinated (definitely double vaccinated - Pfeizer) who got Covid during the delta period. None died, all got very sick. I also know 2 people who immediately, upon becoming symptomatic, had the cocktail infusion. They were asymptomatic in about 1 day! If, God forbid, I get Covid, I'm getting the cocktail!

This disease is a curse. Vaccination does not appear to provide much protection against infection or transmission. It seems to protect against severe symptoms. Again, there are no studies of the long term effects of vaccination. That's why, IMO, vaccination should be a matter of personal choice, not state dictates.

If you want to see how dictates can go seriously wrong, take a look at Australia, a once free country now subject to a biomedical/political tyranny. No longer free!

Take a look at the swine flu vaccine debacle. While there was only the single U.S. death from the 1976 swine flu, 32 Americans died from complications related to the vaccine, in addition, many suffered permanent neurological impairment.

Guard your liberty. Take the vaccine if you want. The government should not be permitted to dictate that everyone take the vaccine.

Bravo to the Canadian truckers for standing up for liberty. I'm sure they are sorry for any inconvenience.

If it has whisky in it I'm in!!

Ok 2x, lets debate the mandate on Covid first: We'll explore each of your points. May have to do it several posts mainly because of time.
Anyway here's what I think your points are:

1) I'd like to see a warp speed program for therapeutics, a serious look at Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine.
2) I don't think the vaccine, mask and social distancing mandates are mandates. They are dictates.
3) Effectiveness of masks and social distancing and why should they be enforced.
4) the CDC and NHI have lost credibility but have gained enormous power ... It is totalitarian. Comply or else.
4a) fakes like Fauci & Collins
5) "freedom" of choice and weighing social cost.

The rest of that post seems to be on other topics:
I'm sure your pointing your finger at someone but I'm just not sure who ... if it's the Fauci, CDC and NHI then it will be covered in #4. If it's something like those damn democrats well that's an interesting topic in itself.

I agree with this but probably not in the way you were intending. I believe that we may lose our democracy. Mainly because the GOP has been hijacked/influenced by people who value personal short term gains (money/power) over the long term health of our country. It's very scary.

Think this is your overall point: Small government with Individual liberty ("freedom" to do as you wish) over Big government dictating stuff. If that's the case it might be interesting to explore why and how we got here ...


and let's not forget:
which at first glance seems to be arguing that the liberties of one group should be allowed to step on the liberties of an other group
But having only cursory knowledge on this one means I'd need to look into it further to have a reasonable discussion.

Poor Australia, unbeknownst to them, they apparently are not aware of the fact that they have been subject to "biomedical/political tyranny and no longer free". When Rick DeSantis, the "brain dead" governor of Florida in late Sept./21 made similar comments about Australia, twitter lit up and a considerable number of Australians had a good laugh about that and kept commenting how they kept looking out the window for all the soldiers and tanks in the streets but couldn't find any. Of course, just recently, DeSantis strangely disappeared for two weeks then all of a sudden, of course, with no masks on, showed up at a concert with his wife whom the day before had just received a cancer treatment.

Speaking of Australia and Florida, let's cherry pick some numbers that are real facts. (Numbers are rounded off).

Australia
Pop. 29 MILLION
Percentage vaccinated age 5 and up - 84.5%(about the same as Canada)
Total reported numbers of cases to date - 2.7 MILLION
Total reported deaths - 4200

Florida
Pop. 26 MILLION
Percentage vaccinated 5 and up 64.5%
Total "reported" cases to date 5.7 MILLION
Total reported deaths to date - 66,000
(It should be noted that the Florida government has been known to under report their numbers so these are probably artificially low).

It seems with all that tyranny and being no longer free, if Australia took the same approach as Florida who banned mask and other mandates, they would have had potentially another 62,000 or so dead Australians.

post got away again ...

Very nice response rrlev! Today is a busy day for me and your comments deserve serious response.

Nevertheless, a few short points.

1. The Pfeizer and Moderna Mrna vaccines are the first and second Mrna vaccines ever certified in the US.

2. Although Mrna technology has been studied and the subject of experiments since the 1990s, until the emergency use authorization for COVID, there is absolutely no historical or long term data on the effects of vaccines using this novel and very promising technology.

3. Neither of the Mrna vaccines could, by law, have received emergency use authorization if there were effective therapeutics.

4. The administrative/biopharma establishments very aggressively attacked the effectiveness of Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine (as well as their safety) despite strong positive clinical outcomes reported by frontline health care providers and scientists. Yes, social media has suppressed views opposing the CDC, NHI and WHO, and it is difficult to find any positive sources on Google, but the Great Barrington Group, Dr. Mallone, Dr. Charles Atlas and many others make a strong case for the use of these therapeutics. Had any of these therapeutics been acknowledged effective, the MRNA vaccines would not have been eligible for emergency authorization.

5. Despite the fact that over 200 million Americans have been vaccinated, there have been more COVID deaths from January 2020 than before. I am not contesting that the vaccines have a positive effect, the question is, how many lives were actually saved by the vaccines, since so many vaccinated died from COVID.

6. There is a valid question as to how these COVID death statistics are generated. If you die in a motorcycle accident and test positive before mortem, you are counted as a COVID death. Hospitals receive government payments for each COVID patient, more if you are put on a ventilator. The numbers are suspect.

7. Although some here argue that MRNA vaccines are a mature technology, sorry to repeat, but the Pfeizer and Moderna are the FIRST MRNA vaccines authorized for use here in the US.

8. Therefore, as to these specific vaccines there are no long term studies as to possible negative effects on recipients. MRNA (messenger RNA) commands the production of proteins within the cells. The issue as to whether, in some cases, the MRNA used in the vaccine can enter the cell nucleus, over an extended period of time, has not been answered because these are the first such vaccines and they have not been subjected to long term studies. (this could be better said, but I'm running out of time)

9. Although concerns that the MRNA vaccine nanotechnology can effect the genomes of vaccine recipients are routinely dismissed by the bureaucracy, and other interested parties, the risk of harm could be enormous to the human race. While the risk of harm may be slight (it is impossible to say "trivial" without long term evaluation) the harm threatened is potentially huge. This requires serious discussion, not a discussion where only one side is permitted to speak.

Social media, mainstream media permits discussion on these issues, but permits only one point of view. You may play your free speech banjo, but you are only allowed a single string.

That was much longer than I had time for. Chat later.

PS, Mr. rrlev, not familiar with 'FUD' so I looked it up. Fear uncertainty and doubt?

Yes I do my best … let’s look at your effective therapeutics … I.e. you first point
. Both of these drug are getting or have gotten a serious look. Hydroxychloroquine has been shown (proven?) to be ineffective. Ivermectin still has a couple of studies running and a couple which have completed. The ones which have complete have concluded that Covid-19 patients taking Ivermectin did no better then those taking a placebo. You’ll just have to wait and see if the other studies come up with something different.

As for Warp speed … Are you proposing to trade off testing for speed? So far there has been no indication that these drug even do anything for Covid. What has been proven is that have been nasty side effects and that they can be, if not used correctly ,dangerous. Given that, why would anyone want to by pass testing and safety to rush them out when there is a proven effective Covid vaccine that millions of people have taken safely?

So far no long term effects … and from what I’ve been told it’s more an anti-vax excuse then reality. But I will take a quick look around to see if it’s considered a real concern or not.


Note:
On this particular subject it’s doubly important to check your sources as these drug have gotten a triple whammy of mis-information: from believers who are out to prove these drugs work (and are more than happy to provide fake and misquoted proof), from sham organizations out to profit off anti-vax believers like AFLD (America's Frontline Doctors) and from political entities (Trump and other politicians who will say anything if it will help them get re-elected).

Actually these drugs have not received a serious look here in the US. It's my understanding that Hydroxy was given to people who were already on ventilators. Front line physicians who use it early report excellent results when used shortly after symptoms appear. I think you may have to go past the first google responses that come up. You may have noticed that the opinions of those who dissent from the orthodoxy of the health bureaucracy/pharma/government are suppressed.

Check out the Indian study on Ivermectin.

No, I'm not suggesting any shortcuts. The US has thrown more than a Trillion Dollars at Covid. You think maybe they could spare a few for some studies to determine whether existing drugs have therapeutic effect. Drugs which have been determined to be safe, like Ivermectin and Hydroxy not to mention developing new drugs?

As to AFD, you think they've sold their souls for a few bucks? Take a look at the record profits of Pfeizer and Moderna. You're talking about billions of dollars. Perhaps my friend, you should check your sources.

I remember when the left did not trust the establishment. Now they are the establishment and dissenting voices are not welcome.

2x,
A lot of your talking points seems suspiciously close to the stuff on AFLD's website ... Convincing isn't it.
And they use a tried and true method of deflection ... blame wrong doing on others. (right out of the GOP handbook ... sorry couldn't help it) . (We'll get into that when talking about CDC, NIH, Fauci.) As far as them selling their sole ... I don't think they had one in the first place. I believe it's been a scam from the start. Hey picking a name very close to a known organization "Americas Frontline Physicians" is no accident.
Anyway, Here a Time article on them ... worth the read ...
'America's Frontline Doctors' Peddle Bogus COVID-19 Treatment

Best way to get to who is right is to cite sources ... Here's a few of mine:

On Ivermectin:
(published October 14, 2021)
Ivermectin is a Nobel Prize-winning wonder drug – but not for COVID-19
Another article about current treatments (published September 20, 2021)
New treatments for COVID-19 may stave off the worst effects of the virus

Is Ivermectin for Covid-19 Based on Fraudulent Research? Part 3
You will need to sign up to read but it's free. it has a link to part 2, and that to part 1.

On Hydroxychloroquine:
Here a link to a study published in The New England Journal of Medicine which basically shows that the drug is ineffective
A Randomized Trial of Hydroxychloroquine as Postexposure Prophylaxis for Covid-19

and the conversations’s take
Hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19: A ... shows flaws in research and no benefit

also in the same article quoted for Ivermectin above is stuff on Hydroxychloroquine
New treatments for COVID-19 may stave off the worst effects of the virus
this article points to these:
Is chloroquine or hydroxychloroquin...ople who have been exposed to the virus?
AND
FDA cautions against use of hydroxy...ial due to risk of heart rhythm problems
Oh, and lets not forget a link to the actual studies ...
ClinicalTrials.gov

Are you really equating a fraudulent company which ripped off thousands of people and probably is responsible directly or indirectly for people dying to drug manufactures which actually delivered real solutions and saved lives? I think you must have mis-spoke.
The question of if we overpayed for it is another discussion (which I don't think is relevant here).

I have and now you can too ... please publish yours ... I'd love to see where all this, ahhhh, information is coming from

again we will get into that in the CDC, NIH, ... discussion but if you wish to keep repeating it I guess I can't stop you.

I've never been on the AFLD's website. I don't receive talking points from anyone. I am an independent thinker, and, although immodest to say, pretty smart too.

I do think the CDC, NHI and democrats have grossly politicized COVID. Perhaps you are susceptible to democrat/socialist/administrative state talking points, or maybe, you express your sincere opinions, which is how I figure it.

I think more and more people are waking up to how destructive these dictates are to our liberty. I expect as the polling results come in, the democrats will run from dictates as fast as possible. I don't think it was ever a matter of principle to left leadership. IMO, it was, for them, always a matter of power and control. After all, vaccine dictates allowed the left to purge those who are not vaccinated.

It is not a matter of being an antivaxxer or anti-science. I'm vaccinated, by choice. It's easy to dismiss differing opinions if you figure those who hold them are flat earthers.

I figure the left will get washed out to sea in the midterms because of their anti-liberty (and anti-science) policies.

Just because you're marching in step doesn't mean you're heading in the right direction. My favorite graffiti was, "eat sh!t, 60 trillion flies can't all be wrong."

Just remember Trofim Lysenko. His genetic theories (wrong btw) were settled science in the Soviet Union. In 1948, criticism of his theories was criminalized. Lysenko's theories were, of course, later abandoned in order to save Soviet agriculture.

Let a thousand flowers bloom. Science is not one hand clapping.

I know your'e a smart guy and it's good to know you're not listening to those guys.
(IMO, this is the only useful information in this post)

Do you think saying something over and over is a convincing argument?
We can move that up to the next topic if your chopping at the bit to discuss it

The rest of this post is meaningless rhetoric and/or does not apply to the issue we are discussing (if it applies to anything at all).

You're a lawyer . If you showed up to court with only words (especially words that didn't apply to the argument you were making) and had no evidence to back them, I'd bet the court would reprimand you for wasting it's time.

In other words, 2x, you've argued your case now it's time to submit the evidence!


I believe I vetted my information and
I provided you with links to my citations so you can vet it too.

It's your turn to provide me with your citations so that I can understand where you're coming from.
Prove me wrong instead of posting meaningless prose.

2x,
Thinking about this
If you find our debate upsetting maybe we should stop here ...
I prefer to drop it, and stay friendly, rather than upset anyone.

Good idea. I kept personality out of the conversation and did not insult or criticize you. In this regard only one of us succeeded.

Best regards

Sorry 2x,

if I said something to offend it was unintentional.
I was just trying to keep the discussion on topic.
Constantly deviating from the topic point we agreed to, was starting to feel like it was being done intentionally to confuse the issue.
That was frustrating to me because if I allowed it to continue we’d never be able to move on.

I was not criticizing you and I apologize if it was taken in that light

2x, I’ve read through this again looking for where I might have insulted you or criticized you personally

The only places I found anything close to even an attempt or implication of a personal insult/criticism were in your posts like:
“ Perhaps you are susceptible to democrat/socialist/administrative state talking points” or
“ Just because you're marching in step doesn't mean you're heading in the right direction.”

These suggested I was susceptible to ideology and walking in step …
from your point of view probably an insult of weak mindedness and not thinking for myself.
For me, it was very helpful insight into your environment and thinking. Implications to be ignored.

I’m having trouble finding any personal insult or criticism I might have made about you.

Perhaps your upset that I called your post “meaningless prose”,
But at worst I consider this a criticism of content and not of person.
If it was something else it would be helpful, to me, to know what.

How sad for Canada.

2x6 - Exactly. Congrats to this so called "forum" for chasing away yet another valued member. The sad part is the authoritarians are too filled with self importance to understand that thinking people will just leave, as 2x6 has also now done.

The truckers are fighting for their, and other's, freedoms. If you don't agree with 2x6 on this, you could have just left him alone. You couldn't do it. And he is now gone, too.

There was a time when this forum had 100's of posts every day, and it was a family.

Those days are long gone.

Craig,
Glad to hear from you again. Must be a silent lurker here.

Is that your idea of freedom, if you don't agree with a controversial post just shut up?
If you don't want alternate viewpoints you shouldn't post. And for what it's worth, I never saw 2x6 say he didn't welcome the exchange.

It's all been done.... before!

https://open.spotify.com/track/1VBRdl1sT4DGckQaTzKEB9?si=544c63a0b8ff4a6c

This is a reply to "Cork." There is a function here called "ignore." I have exercised this function in regards to you. That being said, perhaps you need to take under advisement critical thinking skills. I stated that those who were insulting 2x6 "could" have just ignored him instead of chasing him away. Note that I didn't make a demand, nor even say "should." The word was "could," as in a choice. The choice was made to demean 2x6, and he has left the forum. He and I shared some information from the NIH that demonstrated that he was being quite accurate in his assessment of the situation in the USA. He graciously responded in an affirmative manner about the information, while also informing that he was "pretty much done" with forums.

2x6 has made his choice to leave, and it was for the same reason dozens of others have. Fortunately for Ian, there are lively, friendly places for Axiom owners to chat. Ian has neither the time, nor inclination, to follow this forum.

In this case, 2x6 was demonstrating a happy, grateful post about what he sees as people fighting for their freedom. The responses were, despite what the responders insisted was different, a direct attack on 2x6 and his position. The people 2x6 was championing were called "deadbeats," and the conversation devolved from that point.

This attacking style started here in 2005, and the forum has declined ever since. It has not hurt the Axiom business model, this decline. All that happened was a lot of people who used to love coming to a friendly place have gone elsewhere.

Enjoy what is left of this forum.

Let's stay civil ...

We live in a new world. One where beliefs do not need to be proven since everyone knows they are true. If these "known to be true" beliefs are challenged (especially if proof can be provided) then it's acceptable to counter by:

• Just repeat your belief as loud as you can and as many times as you can.
• point to disproven sources
• present a whole lot of unrelated topics in “support” of that belief
• confuse the issue with BS …

if that does not work then:

• make accusations
• start calling them names
• assign labels and
• assassination character.

So far I think I have been labeled (in my words): a "Weak Minded individual" who "Blindly follows others" and an "Authoritarian" who is "filled with self importance"

It's actually kind of funny ... it's obvious there is about as much real thought placed in these labels as there is support provided for the beliefs presented. Funny if it wasn't so dangerous.


P.S. Craig:

• this is the Water Cooler. Discussions like this is what it is here for.
• 2x started this thread and I’m sure he knew it was going to be political and provocative.
• we mutually agreed to debate under one condition we laser focused on each narrowly defined topic
• We are adults ... I'd expect we can accept a little discomfort if an argument does not hold water
• no one is being driven away ... I like 2x

Also, IMHO, only a child would stamp off, taking his toy's, telling everyone he's "not going to play with them anymore" at the slightest sign of discomfort.

On that front I think we should start a new policy. If we are going to have a discussion on a sensitive topic we should start a new thread in the water cooler and append "(political)" to the title. This would allow people to avoid reading stuff that might upset them ... anyone agree?

Trever,
Like the new picture!

Since joining the forum I:

Built a custom HT with the help of Axiom Members.
Started a business.
Closed a business. Lol.
Sent packages to at least 4 members.
Received packages from 2 members.
Sent emails with custom plans to at least 6 members.
Seen their rooms come together!
Done facetime with members.
Introduced many people to Axiom products in person here in PEI.
Got "the look" from my wife multiple times. LOL.

I think there is still value here. I hope others do too and try to contribute in a positive way!

I still enjoy what is left of this forum. Please let this thread die. Let's turn the page. TOGETHER!!

I probably didn't look hard enough but skimming this I didn't see any insults toward 2x6? Only disagreement.

I think you'd agree that sharing "secret Information" between like minded parties is not a very convincing argument. So, if either of you can provide a link to this info here ... I'd love to understand your side of things.

But be warned ... I will come back if it does not hold water. On the other hand if it's as convincing as you say, I'm not so small minded as not to admit when I am mistaken. Open minded people will adjust their thinking if presented with solid evidence.

You maybe right Craig but there may also be a thousand other reasons ... I can see that I will probably slow down here when I get more involved with other topics .. right now I'm all gun-ho on the home theater and understanding how sound works ... but the interest has come and gone in waves (lasting a few years at a time). It would be nice to build this community ... for the most part I find the people here pleasant even if I do not agree with everything they say.

Your are probably right Trevor,
There is only sensitivities being stepped on here ...
We should drop it.

Although I'd love that link ... hate it when people quote stuff and refuse to back it up! So, I guess I'm torn ... I think in the water cooler we should be able to discuss and debate. If it might be upsetting it should be marked that way so people who don't want to read it stay away. I also think name calling and labeling should be called out right away. Perhaps we could institute some debating rules.

It used to be understood politics were to be kept off the forum, and 2x6 has been around long enough to remember that. As I see it, he set himself up to be disappointed by the reaction, which I see as a very mild one.

CV, I'm game ... as long as no one else brings up anything related to politics I can stick to audio. But once it's mentioned I find it hard to ignore and want to counter with my thoughts. I think if that happens, and being human ... it will, we should ask that it be taken to the water cooler and mark (political).