Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Tweeter in Axiom speakers M5HP

Hello Everyone,

I am looking to purchase three speakers for my home theater. I have narrowed it to 3 OWM5HP or 3 ONVP160. I wanted to know the quality of the components used in these speakers. I am not finding any good information on Axiom website.

Other speaker brands have information on the technology used in the tweeters and woofers. For example Dynaudio and Revel explain what improvements were made to the tweeter or have pictures of the tweeter. For Axiom, I am not finding any such information on its website.

For HP woofer, they say they use large voice coil and Andrew shows the woofer in the video but there are good close up pictures of the woofer or tweeters. I am more interested in the tweeter. The size of the tweeter in the YouTube is very small compared to other tweeters of other brands.

Has anyone opened the Axiom speaker and looked inside the speaker ? Do you have any pictures of the tweeter that is used in M5HP speaker ?

Thanks
Chiru

How do you plan to evaluate the "quality" of the components from their photos?

Axiom drivers are extremely well made. I’ve been impressed by the quality in most of thier products. If your looking for a place they cut corners material wise, it’s in the thinness of their veneers. But you’re also not paying for it.

Axiom is very flexible, you could probably but a tweeter and check it out before purchasing the speakers. You could also check with them if removing the tweeter from the cabinet to look at it voids the warranty (I'm guessing no); if true you could purchase and then check it out - returning them if you aren't satisfied.


I'm going to quibble on this rrlev. Back when the default was vinyl there was a surcharge for the wood veneers. They did away with vinyl option, but the veneer surcharge was added to the standard price. So you are paying for it.
I've yet to have a problem with the veneer and all of my newer veneered speakers (2 M80s 1yr, 2 M5HPs ~3 yrs) look fabulous. So I'm not complaining, just being pedantic.

How does one evaluate their satisfaction with a tweeter by looking at it?

I’m only talking about quality of materials … the veneers are extremely thin. It still looks good and doesn’t matter soundwise but you’ll won’t be able to refinish them. One sanding and your down to the MDF.

If I were to judge the quality of a driver or tweeter or otherwise objectively I would find similar items on parts express or solen or madisound etc. and estimate parts cost. You can probably get really close.

Having said that, I believe Andrew and Ian have been able to take good parts and execute great outcomes with their clever designs. I think they punch above their weight because the dollars go directly into sound moreso than other outfits. If it doesnt prove out in blind testing it doesnt make past prototype stages.

I replied to Chiru’s PM vouching for at least a trial. I think he has a lot of options but the internet makes objective research pretty tough these days. And besides, there are some gorgeous competing speakers on offer…. Status or trophy items sure are tempting.

I guess bottom line is I can afford other speakers but chose Axiom after listening to many over my journey through the hobby. Its like anything else, once you get proficient at something you can get more out of a simpler set of tools than you may think are required when you are starting out. I see speakers as tools, and they do a job. Simple. These ones do the job extremely well if you understand how to operate the tools properly.

That analysis won't divulge the quality. It might help with analyzing if a speaker manufacturer is charging an excessive price. Even that might be a stretch because the price ought to be a function of the composite performance of the speaker system. The price of the M5 for example is too low.

The only way we can judge quality is by considering the specifications, listening in our spaces and comparing against other speakers. Showing Chiru the disemboweled photos I have of Axiom speakers and drivers can't possibly inform his purchase.

It all depends on what Chiru is looking for. If he's looking for the status and aesthetics of a Veblen good, Axiom isn't it. Those brands have full page ads in the audiophile magazines and price tags to pay for their marketing.

If he's a spreadsheet jockey (and I see signs of it), there's no marketing points for him to bite into. There's no beryllium, cardioid bass radiation patterns, or line arrays. Axiom won't scratch that scratch.

But if he's looking for sound quality as their end game system, I think Axiom is one of the few loudspeaker brands where you don't have to doubt their product development process. It was a throwaway statement on one of their YouTube videos, but Ian confessed that he designed loudspeakers to win double blind listening tests (with the omnidirectional floor standing models at the top of that totem pole). With the sound directivity and listening window they've provided, I don't doubt it.

I can add that many years back they brought driver production back to Canada from China because they couldn't get consistent quality outsourcing. They took a hit in cost to be in control of the quality of the product shipped. That tells me they care about their product.

If you really want an opinion on driver construction ... I have had a few drivers out of their boxes: a tweeter which was damaged in shipping (Axiom sent me a replacement) and a M3 mid-range to see how easy it would be to add an insert to the back of the cabinet. Both looked like well made components with a big heavy magnets. This is one area i do not think you need to worry.

I've cued up the video, but that quote is at the 10:13 mark into the video. It's worth watching in its entirety.

https://youtu.be/sL-W3qn4-WU?list=PL1pj9vtyLGBdrlKvfJuDsbAUeTDocvUfj&t=418

The M3 woofer is puny in comparison to the HP driver in your M5 and LFRs. Yank that one out when you have a chance.

I was just responding to the OP's question. He was asking if anyone opened up a speaker and I was suggesting he could probably do it himself at little to no risk.

Cork, do you want me to educate you or do you want me to just STFU?

Well, if the education is why looking at a speaker doesn't help any, then no, as I have no intention of ever doing that. If it's something else, then sure, I'm interested.

Thanks @rrlev, @Hambrabi @TrevorM @Mojo for the responses. I completely understand difficult to assess the sound quality of tweeters based on photos. Also I don't have the technical knowledge to assess it based on photos. I understand the sound quality depends on the design more than the parts. I was trying to find out whether quality parts were used in the design of the speakers. Other brands explain what improvements were mades to the tweeters and drivers so I was looking for similar information from Axiom. I have read reviews from owners that they have experienced significant improvements from v2 and v4. I was looking for technical information from Axiom engineering team what changes they made to the drivers to improve the sound quality. I am not looking for information in the print media from reviewers but just some technical information from Axiom engineering team. All your responses and private response from Trevor definitely addressed my concerns. I will now look for good sales during the Black Friday or Christmas(box day sales) or look at B stock.

Thanks
Chiru

I had watched Andrew video on tweeter types. In the video he shows few metal dome tweeters. The tweeter he showed in the video looks very small compared to other tweeters from Revel and other brands Dynaudio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYG98-j8rDA&list=PL1pj9vtyLGBdrlKvfJuDsbAUeTDocvUfj&index=19

I understand that overall design (crossover and cabinet) is important but I was looking only to assess the quality of the parts.

Axiom has information on HP drivers used in M5HP on the website. I was looking for similar information about the tweeter.

Thanks @Hambrabi for sending me the link to the video. I was looking for similar videos made by Axiom but that covers improvements to the tweeters.
I just found this video on titanium tweeters from Andrew. I am going to watch it entirely and see if it provides the information I am looking for.

I understand the desire for research. Loudspeakers are the one category where it's easy to make a mistake, and there's the tendency to believe that if a $1000 speaker is good, $10,000 is better and $100,000 is better still. Measurements are a better tool than materials because it takes away the marketing fluff, and there's good speakers to be found at every price point.

If you're feeling like a masochist, do a search of Pierre + Aubert + spinorama for an online repository of measurements. TL;DR, most speakers don't measure well, and the ones that do talk about measurements (specifically: listening window, in-room response, and sound power) in their marketing materials, just like Axiom does.

Chiru, these are the changes:

Tweeter - compared to v3 and earlier

I'll start with saying the v2 tweeter that was in my old Axiom gear distorted at louder listening levels. The old tweeter had a plastic faceplate. The new tweeter has a die cast aluminum faceplate. This improves cooling and makes the whole assembly more rigid. The rear chamber of the tweeter is larger. This lowers the resonant frequency of the tweeter to below the crossover region which leads to a smoother amplitude response. The new tweeter also incorporates a shallow horn design that results in smoother off-axis response at higher frequencies (likely above 10KHz). The new tweeter is also able to handle more power and has a much heavier magnet and over-all build that makes it heavier than some mid-range and woofer drivers. The protective cover on the tweeter has been changed from a lens to a grill and I think that has also made improvements in the smoothness of the amplitude response particularly off-axis. I am also quite sure the driver itself is thicker leading to less break-up at higher volumes.

The end result is absolutely no distortion that I can hear and wide off-axis response leading to ethereal highs. From what I can hear, there are no improvements needed.

High power woofer

The HP woofer has a 1.5" voice coil rather than the standard woofer's 1" diameter. The basket is cast rather than stamped. The surround is thicker. The magnetic circuit is beefier. The HP woofer weighs more than the 12" driver in my Sony subwoofer even though it is only 6.5" in diameter. Given all the changes, it provides greater peak-to-peak excursion.

The end result is it can achieve higher sound pressures with far less distortion than the standard woofer. It doesn't really go lower than the standard woofer. It goes as low but more cleanly.

Cabinets

The cabinets are better braced and better stuffed. Someone characterized and did some modeling to figure out where to brace and how much to stuff. I also think the type of MDF changed but I can't say that for sure. Of course now the wood veneer is standard.

Packaging

Some R&D went into the foam and boxes too.

Cross-overs

The component selection, placement on the board and routing of traces are better engineered.

Finally, the bottom line is the Family of Curves and how they sound. None of the above matters if the curves are bad and they don't sound better than the old versions. Axiom has upped their game by taking more curves around the speaker, improving their interpretation of what the curves are telling them and understanding how peaks, valleys and ripples in the curves inform improvements in the design.

I think they nailed their understanding of all of this. How do I know? Because no matter what Axiom speaker I listen to, they have similar characteristics in fidelity, sound stage, imaging and acoustic disappearance. As you move up in the speaker lines, they can achieve lower lows, higher sound pressures, wider and deeper presentation and more pin-point imaging.

They figured out the one formula to rule over all their speakers. Speaking as an electrical engineer, I consider this to be the embodiment of enviable engineering.

It only took 40 years and nearly killed Ian in the process.

Hi Mojo,

Thanks a lot for detailed response. You shared the information I was looking for about the speakers. Just curious ... How did you assimilate all this information ? This is very useful me and future axiom customers.

Thanks
Chiru

I will say the Tweeters in the series have been improved. The differences going from v2 to v3 to v4 was noticeable. I have the M5Hp's in the office and I absolutely love them.

Marketing is marketing ... they will talk about how great something is, show you the fantastic tech, tell you about the improvements over the last version and how much better it is then their competitors.

Axiom talks about how they evaluate improvements to their speakers and often the improvement comes from small changes in design rather than the latest tech.

So if some company starts touting how great their new ribbon tweeter is and how it blows all else out of the water ... how did they evaluate it. Most likely someone in engineering just said it was an improvement and marketing took it from there ...

Just MHO

On behalf of my engineering teams, this is what I always told Marketing.

Chiru, I split the damned cabinets open, ripped out the innards, sliced their cross-sections and conducted forensic investigations using my omnipotent technical skills bestowed upon me by my engineering degree and what seems like 100 years of highly stressful professional practice.

What I don't understand is why you'd wait 6 months for the next sale to come along, risk price increases and deprive yourself of listening pleasure. Why not just send Axiom an e-mail and tell them you want to become a loyal customer NOW and ask them to give you their best price?

Dude, in 6 months we could all be ash. So live a little in the meantime. And don't worry.