Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M22 Good for HT???

I've been test driving speakers for about 2 months now and I just don't know what to buy. I was high on floorstandings but now am looking at the M22's! Will they satisfy my HT sounds? Most people talk about Axioms as great for music, but I'm probably 70-30, movies to music!
My room currently is 12' x 14' and am currently using a Pannisonic HTIB 100/wpc 5.1 setup that I want to upgrade! With the subwoofer I have, will the M22 be good for my HT?
Thanks

If you're talking about using the sub from the Panasonic setup, you're going to want to get a new sub asap. The M22s are great for HT, but frankly, I doubt that the Panny sub is really going to cut it. If it's the one I've seen before, it's about a foot square x 6 inches or so, with a single 8" woofer and a port.

it's actually about 17" talland 13" deep, but retangular shaped and sounds pretty good. About 6 years ago I bought this HTIB for $1000, so it's a decent system!

Keep in mind that a 1000 dollar HT setup 6 years ago could probably be bought nowadays for a few hundred brand new. I believe that the M22's if used for mostly HT would work out great, if as mentioned, were supported by a good sub. The only real differences between say the M60's and M22's would be the ability to play a little louder without sounding compressed and would have a little lower FR to allow a slight better blending with a sub. The M22's are missing the midrange but in HT I don't feel that is very critical. If you were a music connesuir the midrange would be important but otherwise you probably aren't going to miss it. Back to the sub issue. If you are looking to spend the money to upgrade your mains you owe it to yourself to look into a good sub. It really completes the HT experience. If I had my choice between floorstanders and a HTIB sub or Sat's and a HSU or SVS sub I would take the sub anyday. Both of these companies make some very inexpensive subs that would blow your old one away. JMTC

I agree! I was never intending to keep my sub from my HTIB, but it will do for now. Do you know much about Velodyne subs? I have looked at SVS and HSU and I know I will definately upgrade my sub!

Velodyne definitely makes some good subs. I was all set on purchasing one until I stumbled across SVS. I think that for Vel to compete you have to spend 1500 or more though. For HT I believe the best bang for the buck is the PB21SD. For 899 it is an unbelievable value. And seeing as we are on the Axiom board don't rule out their subs. They have a smaller footprint and come in some great finishes for the WAF if it applies. While they won't extend as low as SVS they will still blow your old sub away and if buying them as part of a system you can save a few additional bucks on it to boot.

A good friend of mine bought a Sony HTIB for $800 about a year and a half ago. He also thought it couldn't be any different than other units out there and was pretty impressed by its 'surround' capability. In never hearing a surround system other than at the movie theatres, sure, it is impressive.
However, after hearing my Onkyo/Axiom setup, he decided that he was looking for more oomph in his own home HT experience. We started by getting him a newer, used Denon 3802 and powered the remaining parts of his Sony HTIB with that until he could afford to continue adding newer speakers and other parts. The very day he hooked up the Sony satellites to the Denon receiver in place of the Sony HTIB receiver his jaw did drop. I've heard the expression used many times but usually it is thought of as being an exaggerated idea of surprise. This time it really did happen. His mouth fell open.
I remember b/c it was so funny. He had a beer pouring into his mouth at the time that i started laughing as the liquid dribbled off his chin onto his shirt and new Denon remote.
He could actually turn up the volume now and get volume from his satellite speakers. Turning up the volume on the Sony receiver did basically nothing.

My experience so far with those HTIB sets is that they are horribly underpowered. The satellites are really limited in their sound reproduction capability (some sound downright tinny) and are often hooked up with 18ga cable or smaller for quite lengthy runs (to the surrounds anyway). The subwoofer, often a smallish and not so sturdy unit, is setup to play the full 20Hz to 200Hz range of bass (or maybe even beyond).
There is a point at which the low cost HTIB setup is so low cost that it affects sound quality.
I should note that i have not heard a Panasonic HTIB setup so i cannot comment on your unit and how well it performs. My 10 year old Technics bookshelf system that cost me $1500 in 1992 was replaced with an Axiom and Onkyo system though and i am still stunned to hear the difference in sound quality compared to the Technics. If only i had known about Axiom way back in the early university days.

"The M22's are missing the midrange..."

You meant missing bass, right?

No, I meant missing the midrange. I don't mean they don't have any midrange but the M60's have a dedicated 5-1/4" (I don't know the exact size off the top of my head) midrange driver where the M22's have 2 5-1/4" woofers. Sure woofers will play midrange but not nearly as well as a dedicated driver will. It's the same theory as in the upper end car stereo systems. In my 300zx I had a custom install with a 5-1/2" woofer, 4" mid, and a 1" tweeter running off a x over to send each frequency to the dedicated driver. It makes everything sound better by not requiring drivers to reproduce frequencies that they aren't designed for.

Not having a midrange driver does not mean the speaker is not going have good midrange. IMO, the M22 does have a good midrange.

OK.....pet peeve of mine "Is the speaker good for HT?" If a speaker is good for music, it is good for HT.

fastlane, I'm not sure but I was under the impression that one of the M22s 5.25" drivers was a dedicated mid?

curtis, some folks like warm fuzzy speakers that soften up their music, but who wants that for HT?

Thanks for enunciating on that fact. I do agree that the M22 probably has great midrange. I can't comment as I've never heard it. I wasn't trying to say it didn't have a good midrange but I was more eluding to the fact that the M60 has a "better" midrange. It follows along the same line as the integrated receiver vs. serarates debate. An "all in one" receiver is not going to do as good of a job as a processor and amp. A receiver is designed as an all in one for convenience so some steps had to be cut to incorporate everything (obviously there are exceptions to the rule, as cost increases) together where as in a separates approach each piece is solely designed for a specific purpose.

Nope...the M22 is a two way design....both of the bigger drivers play the same signal.

warm and fuzzy for music...yuck. HT is much less demanding of a speaker IMO.

Bigwill, It states right on their website that the M22 uses (2) 5-1/4" woofers, where as the M60 uses dual 6-1/2" woofers and a dedicated 5-1/4" midrange driver. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they are the same driver the M60's just use a x over to direct certain frequencies to specific drivers to clean up the sound.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to the Axiom line as a warm and fuzzy speaker. More like detailed and accurate. As I mentioned earlier in the post the midrange is not critical in HT but it certainly can't hurt.

That is correct. However, I would take a 2 way modern speaker such as the M22 any day over the 4 and 5 way speakers sold by Pioneer and others... I don't think that the 5.25s acting as both mids and woofers would degrade the mid performance in any way, shape, or form. That's just not how these things work.

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OK.....pet peeve of mine "Is the speaker good for HT?" If a speaker is good for music, it is good for HT.

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I have to agree with that curtis.
So many times i've had an audiophile friend ask me what i want this unit or that unit for, music or HT, like there is such a difference.
Doesn't anyone watch musicals anymore? Or listen to the soundtrack during a movie? I love the soundtrack from Braveheart, The Last Mohican, Star Wars, and so many others.
HT and music are intertwined. What is good for one is just as good for the other.

Hey, whatever happened to that pet peeve thread? It needs a bump.

I'm going to start marketing a device called a "Speaker Attenuation Selector Switch" (or SASS for short). It will have two settings: Music and HT. It will be about the size of a matchbox. To use it, you stick it to the back of your speaker, then just select the mode you'd like to use.

Buy one for each speaker in your system, subwoofer included!

I dunno guys. When I had the 22s, I found them flawless for HT, but lacking something with SOME music. Probably the source. (No, not me! The musical source)

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I found them flawless for HT, but lacking something with SOME music.

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That I can live with....but the other way around, that is what would bother me. Music over HT please.

I was under the impression, Chess, that both you and Sushi felt that modern pop recordings were frequently mixed "hot". This is done to make the recording louder and "better" when heard through car stereo speakers so that people will go, "Wow! That really sounds great. I'm going to go buy that CD!"

Obviously such a recording would sound bad on an accurate, detailed speaker.

OTOH, DVDs are mastered with the HT user in mind - someone who has likely invested a bit of money in quality equipment. As a result, movies sound consistently great and music CDs can be hit and miss.

That is what you guys concluded, correct?

What he said! I REALLY can't stand guys who say what I would like to say better than I can say it. Sheesh!

I have the M22s with a cheap sub for my HT and music/ht is about 60/40. Actually, the music listening went UP after I got them. They are that amazing. They have (in my opinion) amazing mid-range and clarity (read that as neutral) and will probably fit your needs. I will someday get a much better subwoofer, but not until I move out of an apartment building.
The main concern I would have is not if the M22s would sound good, but if you need larger speakers for your space. It's always recommended and encouraged that you call Axiom and ask what speakers they would recommend. I have read on these boards that they talked people OUT Of M80s. To me that means they want happy customers not just more money.

jr

I am one of those that got talked out of the M80's. I was told the M60's sound virtually identical except the M80's would play a little louder. I was also told that the 80's were tougher to setup. Based on Axiom's recommendation I went with the 60's instead and couldn't be happier.

How do you distinguish between what is good for HT and what is good for music or what is consistently and completely a bad speaker for either?
What if a person had a mix of music to movies? Do you then suggest one speaker of one brand and one of another to compensate for the good and bad points?

Here's one possibility:
Both sets of media (music cds and movie dvds) have a wide range of frequencies that need to be played back. If a person were to select a speaker solely for 'hot' music recordings (IF that was all a person had), a speaker with a more laid back upper end, less bright, possibly labeled less accurate with a rolled off upper frequency, would that not take away from its HT usage? (dulled down upper end, now dialogue does not sound so clear for movies)

Perhaps some speakers that are good for music are not always good for movies.
It's a thought to ponder.

No, Travis, there's no technical basis for your comments relating to the mid-range. The M22s have an outstanding midrange, using two of the 5 1/4" drivers for that while the M60 has one. The lowest octave of bass isn't covered by the M22s, but this doesn't in some way change the ability of that driver to handle the mid-range.

I think it all comes down to personal taste (and budget). If I had unlimited funds and a dedicated HT room I would have one set of speakers for music (focusing on DVDA) and another set for HT. Unfortunately myself as well as most of us don't have that luxury. So we have to compromise. That is why it is generally recommended to listen to a bunch of different speakers and make up your own mind rather than relying on the opinions of others. If you hop over to the Spot there are dedicated followers of Axiom and also Rockets. Both rave about the greatness of each brand yet you probably couldn't find 2 more tonally different speakers out there. Myself, I want an accurate speaker even if it means some of my music sounds less than ideal. Sure this way my poorly recorded songs sound worse than usual but on the flip side the well mastered songs really sing (no pun intended ). Not to get on a whole other subject but equipment plays a role in how your music sounds as well. Paired with my old Sony the Axioms as others described were a tad "bright" but paired with the Denon they have mellowed out a bit.

JohnK, I am definitely not an audiophile, I will leave the technical lingo to those better suited to explain it. Playing devils advocate here, if the dedicated midrange driver does absolutely nothing to improve the midrange dynamics than why does Axiom put them in the M60's. If they serve no purpose why not just leave them out and save all of us some money. The same goes for car stereo's. Why when you go to the shows and you look at the installs are there usually a woofer paired with a midrange driver and tweeter. Now we all know that a woofer can not produce what a tweeter can but it can produce midrange so why put in the extra speaker. I am not claiming that I am right I just feel that it is there for improved clarity.

Travis, it isn't for the mid-range, it's for the bass; the mid-range is identical.

If it were for the bass why wouldn't they put either a) 2 8" woofers and forego the mid or keep the 2 6-1/2" and add a 4" woofer instead of the mid. If it is indeed the exact same speaker as the M22's why does Axiom describe it as a midrange instead of what it is, a 5-1/4" woofer?

Why substitute out a good driver (the 5.25") for a 4" driver, when the 5.25" works excellently for the midrange?

Let me straighten it out a little bit.

In the M22s (a 2 way design) there is a crossover to filter out the low frequencies from the tweeter and probably a crossover to filter out the treble from the pair of 5.25" drivers. Therefore, they get the midrange and everything down. They are more capable of producing bass because there's a pair of them. (more area=more bass). In this case, the 5.25"s are serving as woofers.

In the M60s (a 3 way design), there is the crossover to filter out the mid/low from the tweeter, a crossover to filter out the treble/bass from the 5.25" speaker, and a crossover (probably) to filter out the treble and mid from the pair of 6.5" woofers (which is a fair amount of area to produce the bass). This gives extra bass over the M22s (well, that and the increased cabinet size, ports, etc.) In this case, the 5.25" is serving as a midrange.


In any case, it's just a matter of symantics.

I won't go into why Axiom doesn't use 8" drivers; one assumes it's because they don't want or need to. M22s sound a lot better than Paradigm Monitor 9s (a speaker with a pair of 8s in a 2 way design as you describe).

The magic here is M22s = smaller room and M60s=bigger room. Frankly, I would hate to have my life depend on the difference in the audio produced by the two. Jack is happy he made the switch to M60s, and as said many times, the choice is personal preference. Both speakers do better with a sub and the M22s benefit most, (I really like the SVS choice). I gave the M60s the nod because logics (read testostrone and bragging rights here ) told me "bigger is better" and I like the look of towers. Also, when you factor in the cost of good stands, the price difference gets closer to being a non-issue. The REAL driver for the decision was to avoid the old "what-if". The M60s are special and I'm a happy guy.

Thanks for the clarification on the drivers. Axiom obviously knows what they're doing or they would have another arrangement. I went with the M60's as well seeing as I was in the middle of ugradeitis I figured I don't want to go through it again. To get back to the original post M22's would work great for movies but if you have a few extra bucks laying around you won't regret shelling out a few extra clams on them, especially seeing as your music habits will go up when you hear how good they are.