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#52659 - 07/19/04 10:02 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Einstein has been explained to me before, but I still don't get the time/space connection, or why travelling at or near the speed of light would affect the passage of time. Please don't try again.

Wormholes have also been explained to me, but there is no evidence to suggest that they exist right? Atheist mythology?

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#52660 - 07/19/04 10:07 PM Re: OT: politics
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1669
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I am a geek, NOT a nerd... just want to be clear on that.

In reply to:


inane- i sure hope that was a joke?? i still dont understand why this is SUCH a big deal?? why are we spending billions and billions of dollars to try and send spacecraft to photograph mars?? research, science, knowledge?? meanwhile, we got plenty of people dying right here on earth from diseases and plagues.. and we got plenty of people that cant walk from MD, and other possibly preventable defects. but somehow it makes more sense to keep wasting money to find a microscopic organism imbedded 6 inches in a chunk of mars rock??

i hope someone, someday, can make this extreme waste of time and money make sense?




It's pretty simple actually. Yes a small part of the reason to do this is one day earth will be even more overcrowded than it is today. But the far bigger reason for exploring is this:

Name all the different ways mankind has been able to gain substantial new technology from. Done? I'm willing to bet nothing on that list can compare to two things, war and exploration.

True we really haven't spent much time exploring the oceans but we are about done with the land on this planet. So many things you use each day come from one of those two things. Personally I'd rather see us put more effort into space than war to get the results we need. And please don't go say we don't need more technology. Just think back 10 years ago before the internet got huge. Common ppl are now not only able to exchange ideas with fellow countrymen, we do so with ppl across the seas.

Mankind is driven by one thing, to learn. If you're not moving forward, you are likely moving backwards.

_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#52661 - 07/19/04 10:18 PM Re: OT: politics
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
In reply to:

...Wormholes have also been explained to me, but there is no evidence to suggest that they exist right?...


Yes there is. I have an apple, right here, that proves it.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#52662 - 07/19/04 11:56 PM Re: OT: politics
Hawkson101 Offline
devotee

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 359
Loc: wilmette illinois
we(The U.S. and the planet) will achieve useful benefits from space when we have solved our problems on earth. But before then, nothing we learn or gain from space will affect our daily lives. It is perposterous to think that conquering mars is possible when corporations with monetary aims in mind are in control of these projects.

When the significance of money, and therefore wealth decreases, mankind will advance as a society. When healthcare, food, shelter, education and moderate individual accesories are afforded to everyone we, as a race and a country, can start to move towards something bigger then planet earth. Granted, the situation I described is almost utopia like, but it is achievable. With robots and computers ready to take on 80% of the jobs humans do, there will be more free time for us to devote towards individual free time, bettering ourselves and bettering others.

Once that is acheived we can start thinking about mars and other noble ideas.

First lets worry about oil, electric cars and AIDs.
_________________________
Once You Pop You Can't Stop

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#52663 - 07/19/04 11:58 PM Re: OT: politics
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17791
Loc: NoVA
Just to stir the pot a bit, I'll point out that many of the technological advances that we have had in the last 50 years or so have come from the space industry (for lack of a better term). That said, I don't think now is the right time to go to Mars, especially at the expense of other projects, such as the Hubble and the weather satellite that NASA recently decomissioned. Also, if you're going to make a proclamation like this, make sure it gets funded properly...
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#52664 - 07/20/04 12:06 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
"When the significance of money, and therefore wealth decreases, mankind will advance as a society. When healthcare, food, shelter, education and moderate individual accesories are afforded to everyone we, as a race and a country, can start to move towards something bigger then planet earth. Granted, the situation I described is almost utopia like, but it is achievable. With robots and computers ready to take on 80% of the jobs humans do, there will be more free time for us to devote towards individual free time, bettering ourselves and bettering others."

I would have to disagrre with just about everything in the above statement. Money, wealth, capitalism, etc... is the engine that has advanced human civilization to the point we are today.

For example, there is no question that health care in the developed countries is better today than it was 10 years ago or 20 or 100. Why? Because medical research - largely funded by companies looking to make a profit with the latest, greatest life saving drug/machine - has benefited from the incentive capitalism provides.

If the time comes when humans no longer have to work and can just spend their time pondering the angst of their existence, we will be in trouble. It is healthy, nay ESSENTIAL, to strive, to struggle, to want, to achieve. The "free-time utopia" you envision would probably be a very depressing, listless, direction-less place.

I agree though that our oil addiction needs to be addressed now!

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#52665 - 07/20/04 12:39 PM Re: OT: politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
i am going to change the subject.. i still think the space exploration thing is a big waste of money, but, to each their own..

my interest now, is in how the republican party is gonna handle the soon to be released findings of the 9/11 commission. they are obviously gonna conclude that the reports findings are wrong, and that they are based on ineffective research and intelligence that has been proven unreliable. which is gonna be kinda funny, cause it was that same research and intelligence that got them all fired up to attack iraq in the first place..? so , two wrongs make a right?? we will see..

there will be some interesting tip-toeing going on over this report.. but it will be fun to watch both parties try and use it to their advantage.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#52666 - 07/20/04 01:33 PM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
I was a little bored at work, so I decided to vent:

I get most of my news from CNN, FOX, CNN Online, Drudge, & AM Radio…at least try to get a blend. I have tried NPR, but the program I always find in the morning is some monotone ramblings about relatively unimportant topics. I may be just hitting them at the wrong time, but I can’t appreciate the format…makes me want to sleep instead of think. Truthfully, I listen to Neil Boortz frequently, whose Libertarian views resonate closely with my own.

Growing up, I was what many would call a bleeding-heart liberal. After recent conversations with each of my parents, it’s easy to understand why. Both my Mom and my Dad are very much to the left, but for different reasons. My Dad is the eternal victim that believes the dark empire (rich) is out to completely screw the rest of us. My Mom is more aligned on the side of the basic sense of entitlement that is rampant in our country.

As you can tell by my dialog, I have changed my views a bit over the years. Growing up in that environment (home & New England), those Democratic punch lines were passionately drilled into my head. I, in turn, would blindly spew the rhetoric to everyone that would listen. The problem that I would encounter is the fact that some of my conservative buddies would continually take me to the cleaners when we engaged in political discussions. I found myself doing what I now find to be a frustrating element of liberalism (some, not all). Whenever I tried to argue a given point, I would argue using heaping amounts of passion and little more than sound-bytes. I quickly realized that the key to making an effective argument is having the necessary facts to support your position…something I later would try to instill in my Geometry students when discussion the idea of proof.

Many years later, I have done enough reading and listening to better understand the world and all of its complexities. Idealism has given way to realism. I’ve peeled back the onion enough to see that my original premises were without substance, driven more by compassionate idealism and not by a true understanding of the political and economic system in which we live.

Now that you know my life’s history, I’ll get to the good stuff:

1. I think that space exploration must continue. I don’t know enough about the funding structure, but I would like to see more private sector support. As many have said, innovation and advancement arises from exploration (and war). Also, as a species, we need to stop thinking of ourselves as the center of the universe.

2. I am mixed about the war with Iraq. I did not care for Bush’s timing and his methodology. I believe that the Iraq needed to be addressed, but I think that it could have been handled differently. I would have rathered we had better UN support, but not in the way that most advocate. Based upon what we know about the motives of the major UN powers, in relation to Iraq, it is obvious that we were not going to easily obtain their support for our actions. However, I think that Bush missed an opportunity to call the UN out and force their hand. Instead of taking NO for an answer and going it alone, he should have forced their hands based upon the fact that they must follow through with their own resolutions if they are to maintain any credibility in the world community. Since we are the biggest financial contributor to the UN, I think that we could have pounded on them a bit harder than we did. Then, when the evidence of their interactions with Iraq came to light, we would be in a better position to perhaps demand reform in the UN structure.

3. I think that we are indeed in the middle of world war with us on one side and radical Islam on the other. This is not a war of religion for us; it’s a war for survival. I think that we have forgotten the horror of 9/11, which is understandable, to an extent. We are so wrapped up in our own little worlds to pay attention to the bigger picture…However, the terrorists are still out there planning ways to kill YOU. No matter what we do, they want us dead. 9/11 was a wake-up call, but it didn’t last long enough. We’ve settled right back into our normal day-to-day life and lost sight of the underlying fact that the adversary in this situation does not forget, does not get back to normal life, does not have a change of heart. He wants us dead no matter what. The next time we hear from them on American soil, it might be when they vaporize 10 million people with a nuclear device. That day is coming…mark my words. This fact alone should keep you up at night. So, when you are standing at that ballot box, keep this in mind. We need strong leadership right now that is willing to speak in their language. George W Bush might be a moron to some degree, but he is the one that scares our enemies, not John Kerry.

4. I truly believe that our society is being overrun with a severe entitlement complex. Somewhere along the line, we lost sight of the basic tenet of capitalism that each member of society needs to contribute in order to obtain his piece of that ever-expanding pie. Yes, the pie is not finite….the beauty of the system. Everyone can succeed as long as they step up and do what it takes to get their piece. Everyone does not deserve a house and a nice car. Everyone doesn’t deserve economic security. Everyone doesn’t deserve financial stability. Our system in its basic construction does not guarantee that for anyone. Our system does, however, guarantee that those things can be obtained if you work hard and contribute to the system. We all want these things, but many of us somewhere along the line began to think that these are things that we are entitled to, which is a very dangerous thought process. The blood that fills the veins of this economy is laced with sweat from the brow of those making their way.

5. Our government is in dire need of an overhaul. Both parties are dead-set on spending us into oblivion (yes, both parties pmbuko). The only solution is to turn off the faucet. The only solution is to reduce taxation and force them to cut excess spending. Unfortunately, I think that we have gone too far down the line and given the government too much power. Like rats following the piper, the average public views government as the solution to all of society’s ills and are therefore willing to surrender more and more of their personal earnings to the cause. If they don’t, then the IRS thugs come knee-cap them. But, prior to that, they will be labeled as the greedy “rich” for not wanting to pay taxes, for not wanted to foot the bill for every subsidy/entitlement program that they come up with. God forbid the top 2% get back a portion of the well over 50% of the load that they pay for.

6. At the inner layers of this onion is the biggest problem with our government. As with most political bodies (similar to labor unions), the original intent is honorable and worthy, but our government now exists for it’s own existence. Politicians seek only to maintain their own power. They do so by keeping the flock at odds with each other. Using divisive and often unsolvable issues such as abortion and gay marriage, politicians herd the sheep into battle with each other to avoid being seen for what they are. Instead of digging deep into the real and complex issues that affect our daily lives, they keep us sparring over the sound-byte issues that fuel the passion. In doing so, they keep us from uniting (to some degree) behind the more pertinent cause of reforming the institution in which they serve.

Sermon Complete!….As you can see, I’m a bit jaded about politics and the state of the union. The one problem with pulling back the veil of ignorance is the recognition of the true state of affairs and how far things are out of control. When you really start to get a grasp on the system, you begin to wish that you had taken the blue pill.


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#52667 - 07/20/04 01:36 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
If Bush really had the best long-term interest of our country in mind when he decided on his post 9/11 courses of action, then he should sh*t-can all the BS reason he gave the public and just talk to us straight. More than anything else, it's the fact that he mislead all of us that gets to me.

If he had just told us the truth about his decisions from the get-go, and did nothing else differently, I might actually like the man.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#52668 - 07/20/04 01:49 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
TurboDog1,

Wow. That was excellent.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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