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#52689 - 07/20/04 11:41 PM Re: OT: politics
Hawkson101 Offline
devotee

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 359
Loc: wilmette illinois
"Our only hope is that the region begins to police itself. But, in the interim, we either sit idly by and wait for the next attack or we finish what we started in Iraq and demonstrate our resolve, the one thing that they do understand about us. There is no resolving of differences in this scenario. With Allah as their guide, they have vowed to destroy us...we can't talk ourselves out of that. "


Why is it that we have to attack them in order to keep ourselves safe? I don't want to sound like a peace loving hippie but can't we at least think about peaceful solutions?

I am glad that you also recognize we must fully figure out what the problem is, and neither your nor I have any significant relevations about what they are. But since we both know these problems are compex and we agree the solution will be equally complicated, I must reiterate that we can not simply solve our problem by kiling those who oppose us. I must reiterate that killing those who are willing to die does not eliminate the problem. It only temporary removes, and then inflames the problem.


Also, I would like to point out that this is not the cold war again. It is not our resolve vs. their resolve and our economy vs their economy. We can not fight this war like any normal war. Our methods must change. And not our tactical methods. We must change our ideas on war in order to win this war.

If you kill 1 terrorist, their neighbor, their brother, and their brothers neighbor will take their place. We can not and should not expect to win the war by killing radical islamist. We can expect to win the war by focusing on prevention and religous and cultural diplomacy.



Also, what does this statement mean. "But, in the end, the biggest problem is that we represent the antithesis of the fundamentalist culture that they are trying to sustain."

I am not just trying to be cute with this question. I don't believe we are the exact opposite of radical Islam and that our differences can not be resolved. Its true our values our different at times, but that statement sounds too much like a soundbite from a politician. Please elaborate.

"The only thing turning Iraq into a "junk-hole" is the unending flow of terrrorists from surrounding countries fighting tooth and nails to stop the establishment of a free Iraq."
The first part of the statement is simply not true.
The latest official report out of Iraq has stated that of the 5000 prisoners in custody under a 100 are foreign. The exact figure eludes me but it was less then 2% of them are foreign.
Fox news(which is where I believe this statement comes from) is not news. News is reporting the facts as they are, not as one wants them to be.

In any case, the situation in Iraq is debatable. One poll will say "Iraqis believe they are better off now then before Saddaam", but another poll will say "Iraqis are less happy without saddamm."

It is difficult to analyze a situation where the kurds are free, almost a thousand Americans are dead and many more thousands of Iraqis are dead.

Are you willing to put your life on the line to go to some country you will never visit otherwise so the Kurds can be free? It is a noble idea and a noble cause, but the repercussions can be enormous. To be honest, I care more about the tragedy in Sudan and the AID's crisis in Africa more then the Kurds in Iraq. THe Kurds were living their lives a in a functional, although slightly oppressive goverment for 10 years without incident.

Now if Saddam had WMD and he had started going at the Kurds again that would be a different story. But he didn't have WMD and he wasn't commiting genocide against the Kurds yet we still went in there. Lets concetrate on the terrorists and the threats that affect Americans and not some shitty country I will never visit and will never affect me.


_________________________
Once You Pop You Can't Stop

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#52690 - 07/21/04 12:30 AM Re: OT: politics
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1660
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
EVERYONE has to watch this (with sound)

http://www.jibjab.com/

_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#52691 - 07/21/04 08:18 AM Re: OT: politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
just thought i would throw this in here.

looks like a few of us arent the only ones worried about the money being wasted on space exploration. i just saw where the House subcommittee(which is republican based), has voted to cut NASA funding by 7%, to allow for more money to be put into a veterans benefits package. i guess it finally made sense to someone to spend good money on the americans 'down here', than the void 'up there'?

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#52692 - 07/21/04 08:33 AM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
Hawkson,

I agree that diplomacy has to be our primary method of handling inernational affairs. However, I think that you have a bit of an unrealistic impression of how much possibility for diplomacy there is in this situation. Those that we are fighting against do not value life. They are willing to die, based upon a misguided view of the afterlife and piles of virgins at the foot of Allah. We are not really dealing with radicals....we are dealing with fanatics. The atrocity of 9/11 clearly displays the types of people we are dealing with.

Now, with that being said, I again agree that diplomacy must be our primary path for dealing with the region and all of it's complexities. But, in regards to terrorists, they must simply die like rabid dogs, because they won't stop trying to bite us, no matter what we do. If we can simultaneously follow these two paths, we indeed have a better chance of getting out of this mess.

As to the issue of resolve, I have to disagree with you. Every day, there is a bombing of sorts over in Iraq. Have you ever wondered why they happen like that?...not in larger clusters? Every night, CNN will show the daily dose of Iraqi terrorism, just like they want it. Their whole goal is to break the resolve of the US. How better to do that than to assure that every American's dinner-time news contains it's daily dose of death in Iraq? Now, let's assume that this works and we simply pull out like Spain or the Philipines. Do you truly think that they will leave us alone after that?...not a chance. The difference is that we are the target here. The only thing we can do is show them that we will not be deterred from our cause.

On a larger note, this may not be the Cold War, but we are the last remaining superpower. In that position, we simply cannot afford to have anyone question our resolve.

"antithesis of the fundamentalist culture that they are trying to sustain"

What exactly about the West is it that you think they are fighting against? Our society is founded upon the idea of freedom and our system is based upon the ideals of Capitalism and the secular ideal of speparation of church and state. In essence, everything that we represent is the opposite of the system these extremists are fighting to maintain, a system based upon strict fundamentalist doctrine. I think we have different views on the depth of the hatred and resolve in our advisary, as you again mention diplomacy in dealing with terrorists. I hope I am wrong, but I don't share that optimism. Again, actions from 9/11 make it clear to me the value they place on life and the level of hatred they hold for us.

I'd have to see your source for your comments about the makeup of the prisoners. Beyond that, I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct. However, the makeup of those prisoners is not necessarily a reflection of the makeup of the insurgency. I'm not there, but I would suspect that we don't catch many of these terrorists as they set the roadside bombs and those fighting directly with our soldiers either end up disappearing into the wind or end up swiss cheese in the sand. Those in prison may only be suspected collaborators, etc. In the end, you have to think about this from all sides and realize that each news medium has it's own agenda. If you want to show the war in a bad light, it's easy to take reports/facts out of context and lead your viewers to unsupported conclusions...Just ask Michael Moore.

When I was referencing the Kurds, I wasn't talking about their freedom. I was referencing the relatives of the thousands of Kurds that Hussein gassed using those non-existent WMDs. I am quite sure that they are happy to be out from under Hussein's brutal thumb.

At days end, this problem is bigger than us sitting here jockeying back and forth. This war will continue for generations, regardless. We can only hope we don't turn the Earth into a wasteland in the process.

OK, off to work, now that I'm late as hell.

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#52693 - 07/21/04 09:11 AM Re: OT: politics
ringmir Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 619
Loc: boston
Man, I don't think any thread has every generated this many looooooooooooooong posts. No wonder there were political discussions breaking out everywhere...
_________________________
[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]

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#52694 - 07/21/04 09:54 AM Re: OT: politics
denver Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 66
Loc: ummmm, Denver!
Someone else sent me a link to the animated film clip that INANE recommended - it's great. Here's a bit more direct link: http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/this_land_af. Click on "Watch Film" to see Bush and Kerry trade insults to the tune of "This Land is Your Land."

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#52695 - 07/21/04 12:38 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
According to a 2 hour documentary (which generally painted a negative view of the war) that I saw on the Dicovery Times channel (or was it Discovery Civilizations?) there were large numbers of Syrians who had crossed the border to do battle with the infidels. I don't know if they're still there or not, but the insurgents seem practiced at terrorist-type attacks.



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#52696 - 07/21/04 12:47 PM Re: OT: politics
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
I don't agree with what Saddam did or how he ran his country, but in the bigger picture, I don't think we should go take out anyone we don't agree with either.

As for policing the world, if it is anyone's job it is the entire UN. The rest of the UN wasn't convinced, but we went in anyway. The UN may be the closest thing to the police, but not the US alone.

As far as looking outside the US perspective, it fits in with some of the other messages in this thread. If we don't look at them and try to understand them we aren't going to get anywhere. Is continuing to throw troops at them going to solve anything? They aren't giving up...they look forward to dying because of their extremist views. I'm sure they think there are more riches and women for them with Allah the more of us they can take out first.
I think we need to look beyond Saddam at the big picture...how does the rest of the world view our actions. How do we affect relations by taking out these weaker countries. A lot of other countries don't view what we did as right, regardless of opinion in the US (which is divided, as we can tell). As was mentioned earlier, let's just not keep fighting everyone and creating more enemies along the way.

This can go on and on, because I don't think anyone knows what the right answer is and how to ultimately handle the situation effectively. I don't think the govt. has been able to do it, and I don't have much confidence that Kerry taking over would lead to a different plan of action that would work either. I've had enough of this thread for now....I'm out.

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#52697 - 07/21/04 12:56 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Hilarious link Inane. I've emailed that to lots of folks. Thanks.

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#52698 - 07/21/04 05:12 PM Re: OT: politics
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1660
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
npnp BigWill

In reply to:


I've had enough of this thread for now....I'm out.




I can't get enough of this thread. We definitely have both sides going at it here, but its pretty civil and I'd say constructive.

/wishes politians would figure this out


_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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