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#52829 - 07/30/04 08:21 PM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
In reply to:

I did see a direct quote regarding his belief that health care should be a basic right for all Americans. Bush ain't saying that.



Do you honestly feel that healthcare should only be available to those who can pay for it? If so that's just one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on.

In reply to:

He proposes allowing small businesses to form consortiums(?) for the purpose of providing healthcare to their employees at the kind of discounted rates that large corporations can negotiate.



Sounds like a good idea.

_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#52830 - 07/30/04 11:21 PM Re: OT: politics
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I have not posted but once in this entire thread but I have read every last word of it.I must commend each and every one of you that has contributed to it.This has been by far my favorite read each and every day.To keep it as civil as you boys have is outstanding.BRAVO!
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#52831 - 07/30/04 11:25 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
"Do you honestly feel that healthcare should only be available to those who can pay for it? If so that's just one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on."

We both know that no one is going without life saving medical care in the US (at least from what I see here in California). Dentistry should be what the Democrats are crying about, IMO.

Healthcare was discussed on another thread - I forget where. I just downgraded my family's coverage from a PPO to an HMO because the cost was going to be prohibitive.

What to do? Judging by what the Canadians have said here a federal health care system may not be the way to go. If such a system could work well, you would think that Canada could pull it off (relatively small and homogenus population).

I don't know I'm blitzed.

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#52832 - 07/31/04 12:35 AM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Saw this quote on some whacked forum:

How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

Ronald Reagan -Remarks in Arlington, Virginia, September 25, 1987




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#52833 - 07/31/04 12:37 PM Re: OT: politics
Michael_A Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
In reply to:

Do you honestly feel that healthcare should only be available to those who can pay for it? If so that's just one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on.




Spiff,

This is one area in which we "right wingers" get painted with the wrong brush. We do not want people to die, or to get sick and stay sick. Our issue is how we get from point A to point B. Kerry just wants to reach into our pockets, open our wallets, and hand over the cash to the government. Once the money is there, we have lost control of it. We have to beg politicians to actually spend it on healthcare instead of other stuff. They will come up will all sorts of qualifications that must be met for us to get access to the healthcare (IF they spent the money). So while we are lying there sick, we need to hire a lawyer to fight the system for us and then we finally get the bare minimun level of service when we finally "win". The laywers on both side are the only winners, walking away with 1/3 of the money that was supposed to be used to vaccinate 3000 children.

We believe that if you are CAPABLE of paying for healthcare, then you should have to pay for it. We believe that we need to get the politicians and lawyers OUT of there as much as practically possible in order to stop draining HUGE amounts of money away from the actual delivery of health care. We believe that there are enough rich liberals out there to get together and donate their money to a fund that could assist those who can't afford to pay for their own health care. (Only kidding - us conservatives would donate as well). Consider this. Michael Moore could take the profits of Falsenheight 911, subtract what it cost him to make the movie, and maybe put a hundred grand or 2 in his bank account, and then personally pay for the healthcare of about 100,000 people for a year. Call Whoopie, Ben Afflict, Linda Rhonstat, and the rest of the gang. Do a show, buy people healthcare. Exactly how much money do you guys waste blasting Bush over healthcare, anyway? Drive the freaking cash down to the hospital and sit in the ER. Pay people's bills right there on the spot. How come nobody calls these Hollywood types out, anyway? Shoot, they could just pay for the whole darn healthcare system all by themselves without us, and STILL afford their cocaine and caviar. Why do we let them get away with bashing Bush without asking them to put their money where their mouths are? Why the hell does Michael Moore need to come after my little paycheck for the money? What am I supposed to do when I have to pay for my own father's medical bills? Go back to the government and beg for it just like everyone else, I guess. The point is, we should not screw up the entire healthcare system because a small percentage of the population can not afford it. We should optimize the healthcare system to make it the absolute most modern, best system it can be. It should be priced so that Americans who fall into the $20,000 - $60,000 a year salary range can afford it for their families. Some people will not be able to afford that, and it's up to the rest of us to help them because we want to, and because we can. To others, this cost will be extremely low, and I say oh well, good for them, the lucky rich bastards.

Faith based organizations are the way to go, simply because it is what they do. They help people. Our church has paid for several operations for people this year. Two of them weren't even members of our, or any church - they WERE athiests. I see them praying all the time now that they are healthy again. You really should see all of us right wingers whipping out the wallets when the Father announces "we will be passing the collection plate a second time today to help Mr. Johnson pay for his cancer surgery". It would bring a tear to your eye. Yet we get blasted because we really don't want to collect the money and send it to John Kerry so that he and his buddies can sit down and figure out if Mr. Johnson is a member of one of their "targeted" (see side rant in italics below) groups entitled to get that money. If he is, you can be sure that he would receive far les actual financial support than he got from the church. We just paid for the operation outright because he needed the help. I gave $30. He got every nickel of it. I'm happy about that. When I need an operation, they'll do the same for me. If I had sent $30 to DC for his healthcare, they might have given him $2 back.

Politicians want to control our lives, and they do it by limiting what we can spend, where we can spend it, and how we spend it. They also limit it by dividing us into little bitty groups that they HOPE will always feel depressed, downtrodden, victimized, and abused. Then they can come running into the room yelling "We're with the government, and we're here to help you.". Yes, they can. They created the problem.

Whenever you hear "targeted", substitute "no one" - it's a trick. They collect the money, keep it, and then tell everyone that they aren't in the "targeted" group. No one gets the money, and no one every realizes that no one fits the "target". Clinton's "targeted tax cut" would have been no tax cuts for anyone, but he would have just said, "they are there, you just don't qualify". We all think someone else is getting it, but no one is...
_________________________
M- M60s/VP150/QS8s/SVS PC-Ultra/HK630 Sit down. Shut up. Listen.

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#52834 - 08/01/04 12:55 AM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Is it just me or are the right-wingers here funnier than the liberals?



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#52835 - 08/01/04 01:31 AM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I dunno, I guess I'm not in the targeted audience for republican humor.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#52836 - 08/02/04 12:10 AM Re: OT: politics
mhorgel Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/02/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Louisville, KY
Great post, Michael A.

I have seen government funded healthcare first hand as a physician. The government funded health care system for the poor around here is called Passport. Passport pays me a relatively few dollars per month for each subscriber in my panel, no matter how many times I actually see them. I hate seeing these patients (who pay nothing out of their pockets) because they are the most demanding, time consuming patients in my practice, almost none of them come in for actual medical problems, and they think nothing of calling after hours for non-emergency complaints (such as needing their medication refilled).

The fact is that when you give somebody something because they're "entitled", they haven't earned it, and they don't treat it as their own. Look at just about any Government housing project in the country. They've become such hellholes that they're having to demolish them left and right.

One state (I forget which one and I lent out my source [John Stossel's "Give Me A Break"]) enacted a program where able bodied welfare recipients would have to work picking up trash by the side of the road in order to receive their check. This idea was opposed by liberal critics as being "slavery". The recipients of these welfare checks thought picking up trash was beneath them. There used to be a time when most people would rather work for a day's pay than to take "charity". But it's not "charity" any more, it's an "entitlement".

Insurance companies are also to blame, as are physicians who slowly by baby steps turned over control of the health care system in this country to insurance companies. Americans have been trained that they should have to spend no money out of their pockets for health care. I have people ask me for free sample medication because they don't want to pay their co-pay. People complain about paying a second $15 copay for a follow up visit, but do not flinch at spending $30 to get their oil changed.

In my opinion, most people should pay MORE for their day to day health care needs such as office visits and medications. That puts the economic incentive on the patient and the doctor to try to save money. I could actually prescribe the best medication for each patients condition and monetary circumsatance, not the one their insurance company prefers because Pharmaceutical company X pays them a kickback.

But I digress. Entitlements were enacted with the best of intentions, but they actually harm the country by fostering the victim mentality. Draconian legislation such as the Americans With Disabilities Act were also passed with the best of intentions, but actually harm the disabled because companies won't hire them for fear of being sued under the act. Trial lawyers say they are helping the little guy, but who really benefitted from the Tobacco lawsuits? Asbestos litigation? Suits against vaccine makers. Why the lawyers, of course. There are now only 3 companies in America that make vaccines, down from more than 10. Are we safer with only 3 companies making and researching vaccines?

By the way, I don't remember seeing "access to health care" enumerated in the Constitution as a basic right. So, no I don't think everybody has an absolute right to health care, but I think I have a right not to have to send checks to somebody who thinks picking up trash is beneath them. I think I have a right not to pay the salaries of millions of Government employees whose only job it is is to enforce thousands of regulations which actually stymie economic growth. And I think I have a right to live in a country where companies that make vaccines don't shut down because of fear of litigation.

Mark
_________________________
"Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff"

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#52837 - 08/02/04 12:28 AM Re: OT: politics
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1660
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I don't think I have the brainpower to make much sense tonite but...

Handouts:

I didn't say there should be no gov programs for helping ppl in need... I just said in general entitlements are a BAD thing, we need less programs so we can make them more efficient and actually work in some fashion!

Kerry on the left/Healthcare:

I think I also said earlier that I did not agree with Bush on his perscription plan. That was definitely pandering to the left side of things. And since Kerry wants something even bigger that would be one of his *way left* ideals.

Kerry on Defense:

As far as Kerry trying to use his military service to get points on national defense, what a joke! What he did after his tour in 'nam and his voting record on military spending PROVES this man has no right or even a CLUE on national defense.

Bush being religious:

As far as the Bush religion thing goes... ya he probably shouldn't speak out on his relogion as much as he does (Regean was as religious or even more so than Bush but ya wouldn't nessasarily know that because he didn't go preaching it) but I don't think he forces it on any person. Just because the man disagree's with abortion and gay marriage doesn't mean he's forcing you to believe the same and go to church like he does. Those are the things he believes. I don't subscribe to any religion but I believe abortion is wrong in every way....

Stem Cell/Abortion:

As far as stem cell research goes, one could say in nazi germany we knew those jews were going to die in concentration camps anyway so why not experiment on them, to get something benifical out of their deaths. Before you cry that its not the same thing... I believe killing jews was bad in any form, killing an unborn human is wrong in any form as well.

_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#52838 - 08/02/04 12:01 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Ditto all that, Doc.

Is there any concrete evidence linking vaccines to autism? Or was that relationship dreamed up by the trial lawyers? The parents swear it's the vaccines, but how the hell could they know that?

We've been innoculating our 11 mo. old, and will continue to do so for the public good. Our pediatrician (great guy) obviously thinks it's OK.

I read about the recent polio outbreak in Africa, where Muslim leaders banned vaccination programs in the belief that vaccinations are an anti-Islam Western plot. Apparently, they blame the vaccines for sterility and AIDS epidemics.


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