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#53009 - 08/19/04 10:57 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Russia is not in yet... however... I am drinking some Stoli right now... I may have to petition for their acceptance...
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#53010 - 08/19/04 11:23 PM Re: OT: politics
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Craig, I'm not finding an answer here as to why so many Europeans don't support Mr. Bush's policies now.

Its easy to bash the French about all this. Have you ever looked at how much terrorism the French have had to deal with, the problems with the huge impoverished Muslim minority their colonialism has brought them, or how good the French are at dealing with terrorists? How is the French position on the war benefiting them financially now?

What about the rest of Europe? How were the Swedes and Norwegians benefiting? I don’t have the answers, I would liked to have been able to ask more questions when I was there.

One difference I see is that being citizens of small countries with divergent interests, the Europeans are more accustomed to dealing with different views, interests and circumstances. I was surprised by the differences between just Sweden and Norway, seemingly similar countries with populations smaller than many U.S. counties.

I one of those who has never fully credited the arm's buildup and confrontation during the 80's with the collapse of the soviet block. I believe that the core belief we held, that totalitarian communism was fundamentally unsound and unsustainable was correct. In 1987 I read Gorbachev's book Perestroika. He identified several failings of their system and the need for reform. The one that stands out in my mind was the need for spiritual/creative freedom for the then soviet societies to thrive. I thought at the time that Gorbachev was a sincere reformer who saw some of the real failings of the soviet system and was determined to change them. Was I wrong? It used to scare the hell of people when I told them that was what I got from the book. People were terrified to trust anything a commie said. But look what happened, have you looked fully at the role Gorby played at the time? Must it be only one cause that brings a result?

Why do we have to bash people so much who don’t agree with us? I really dislike the polarized political climate that exists in the U.S. today. All over the media now is the effort to smear the hell out of Kerry on the one hand with the same going on about Bush on the other. Little of it has anything to do with effective leadership, or the real issues that confront us. Right now I feel this election is going to be decided on largely irrelevant rubbish.

I think your questions are interesting if we are looking for real answers. If we are just trying to persuade each other to our beliefs they become less so.

_________________________
Mark

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#53011 - 08/19/04 11:38 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
MD - Europeans have rarely supported US policy. Ever. But the myth that we went this war alone is that... myth.

What I tried to point out was examples of Europe not agreeing with us. They never do.

As for Gorby... When did I say Reagan won it with an Arms build up ? ... That did make the Soviets realize we were not going to roll over, and lest you forget, Gorby's predecessors WERE devoted to world communism. Reagan's strength DID help a guy like Gorby succeed.

And I read "Fall of the Russian Empire" in 1977 ... It foretold of the Russian people ridding themselves of communism due to desire for freedom...

The French position on the situation in Iraq has changed dramatically... now that the war is won, they ARE hoping to cash in on reconstruction.

Am I going to try to convince you? No... I have tried to answer every question you ask. You are not interested in reciprocating... not a problem. Just remember... no country does more for other nations than do we... especially in the private sector... and be proud you are American...
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#53012 - 08/19/04 11:55 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
MD... One other minor tidbit... I spend a considerable amount of time in Toronto, and meet people from all over Europe and Asia... I can tell you that they are fed a daily dose of absolute lies abour US intent... perhaps someday over drinks... we can chat more...

On my last trip, when I asked if Iraq would be better off if we put Hussein back into power... the responses and attitudes of those I talked to changed in a hurry ...

When we meet people from other countries... we are Ambassadors... if they say we are terrible, and we let it go unchallenged, we are giving tacit approval.

So... Can you tell US why the disagree so vehemently with us?
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#53013 - 08/20/04 01:27 AM Re: OT: politics
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I for one frankly don't give a *expletive* about what rest of the world thinks. It's what Craig said, the world never approves of what we do, yet we do more for rest of the world than any other country, ever! I am so damn proud to be an American, yet that would offend some Euro. I'm just so happy Tony Blair has balls, because I wonder if any other Euro leader does.

Furthermore, I really hope that investigation at the U.N. gets at least a preliminary report out before the election so everyone can see just how pathetic that institution is. Also so it will explain the REAL reason France, Germany and Russia didn't *support* us removing Saddam

Furthermore, I really hope that investigationg at the U.N. gets at least a pelimenary report out before the election so everyone can see just how pathetic that institution is. Also so it will explain the REAL reason France, Germany and Russia didn't *support* us removing Saddam
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#53014 - 08/20/04 12:08 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I'll second INANE's disdain for European public opinion. Who cares?

Gorbachev let loose some small reforms, sent signals to their republics and puppet states that reforms would not be frowned upon by Moscow, and the thing snowballed out of control. Why did the empire crumble from within? Because it was illegitimate and did not have the emotional support of the people it governed. Same deal in Iraq. We drove some tanks around Baghdad and the people came out in droves to get rid of their illegitimate oppressors. How anyone can call a war that ends like that "wrong" is beyond me.

The enemies of America, democracy and capitalism wish to destroy the American people's support for their own gov't - so that we might crumble from within, too. The agents of this attack are primarily liberal professors, celebrities and media members whose power of speech outweighs that of the rest of us. With large numbers of people distrustful of their own gov't, ashamed of their history and tradition, wrought with an inferiority complex over "European intellectualism", paralyzed by a relativist view of the world, etc... the stage would be set for big changes in American gov't. Call me paranoid, but that's the way I see it.

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#53015 - 08/20/04 01:08 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
BigWill, you're paranoid. In fact, you remind me a bit of Joseph McCarthy.

Ahhh! They're everywhere!



(frog blast the vent core!)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53016 - 08/20/04 02:23 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I may be paranoid, but that doesn't change the facts.

Let me preface this with the statement that I don't think md55 is a communist. But, I am going to use a couple of statements from his above post to indicate how Marxist thinking has become dominant in Europe (perhaps one of the reasons why many people in Europe have been swayed by their media to dislike US policy/Bush) and also increasingly affects the US political climate.

"...the problems with the huge impoverished Muslim minority their colonialism has brought them."

Imperialist agressors. Exploiters of the poor and the 3rd World. Rigid class divisions based on wealth and race. Pure Marx.

"I believe that the core belief we held, that totalitarian communism was fundamentally unsound and unsustainable was correct."

True, true, but you seem to be making a distinction between "totalitarian communism" and some other form of communism. Do you believe, as Marxist scholars do, that "true communism" will still be achieved - not in backwards countries like Russia and China, but in industrialized countries like the US, Canada, France, or Britain?

Totalitarian communism is "...fundamentally unsound and unsustainable", but not wrong? Just in need of some tweaking?



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#53017 - 08/21/04 09:56 AM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Since noone answered my question, I guess I will now. This is a quote by <>, the French ambassador to the UN. It was made on November 8, 2002. The topic was the 17th and final UN resolution that Saddam Hussein had 30 days to completely comply with this last resolution, and IF he did not, then war WOULD be the final solution.

So... We went this alone..... ?

47 other countries joined us.
The French reneged on yet another agreement.

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#53018 - 08/22/04 10:37 AM Re: OT: politics
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Bigwill, wow, a lot gets read into simple phrases. I simply referred to happened to European colonial powers. They ended up reciprocating with their colonies by giving the residents of the colonies rights to settle in the home countries. http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Islam_in_France
The French have been dealing with fairly large scale social and economic issues stemming from these circumstances. Consequently France has had a lot of experience with terrorism. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,176139,00.html

Totalitarian Communism: Totalitarianism http://www.bartleby.com/65/to/totalita.html and Communism http://www.bartleby.com/65/co/communism.html. Though they have been combined in particularly nasty ways in most of the examples we have seen. I think it is worth understanding the nature of political and economic systems both separately and together. So I refer to both together when they were both part of the sickness of a society.

In California by democratic action, we have common ownership (communism) of the beaches up to the mean high tide line. In Oregon, Texas and Hawaii beaches are public to the first line of vegetation. Have you ever tried to walk on the beach where "capitalists" have control, with barricades down into the water every few yards? Things are rarely entirely black or white in my experience so I like to make finer distinctions.

Are you a dialectic reactinary? dialectics

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Mark

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