Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Need some advice, soon to make some big purchases!

Hello everyone, first of all I want to say thanks in advance for all the expert info. this forum provides, it has helped me narrow down some choices for my HT/Rec Room. Now onto the important stuff...

First, here is a brief description where I am at, I'm closing in on the home stretch for finishing my home theatre area in the basement of our newer home. The overall room size is about 30x35ft. which will consist of a HT area in one corner that will be about 20x16ft. I will have 9ft ceilings, and I'm currently looking at some 2x2 Accoustic ceiling tiles so I can easily get to any wiring if needed. The rest of the room will consist of Bar area with pool table and near the walkout will be a retro 50's theme with booth and checkered flooring (wifes idea, gotta make her happy).

I first found out about Axiom on AVSforum. The overwhelming positive responses I've read have got me interested. Some speaker questions:

1) I'm currently looking at the Epic 60 setup, I would say I'll be using about 65% for HT and 35% music listening. Will the 60's be adequate for a room that large when listening to music in stereo from accross the room, or should I consider the 80's? I think either will be great for HT purposes.

2) I recently auditioned some B&K 703's and 704's and a local AV place that has been around for 30 years in my home town, can anyone comment or compare these to the 60's or 80's? The Kevlar based midrange and woofer's were interesting and the sound was very good to my ears. These had a freq. range (-6dB) of 30hZ and 50kHz, the Axiom's show 22kHz, is this a big deal, I didn't think the Human ear could distinguish much past 22kHz? Also the cost on these is much more, I could get 2 M80's for the price of one of these.

3) The Qs8's have me very interested, but I'm confused as most of the salespeople I've talked to at 3 respectible AV stores don't understand why you would use this type of speaker for surrounds or rears. I'm not sure if I can quote them exactly, but the basic thing I'm hearing is that you would not want the surround/rear speakers dispersing audio in various differant directions, rather, you want them Mono or directional towards the listening area. I was planning on 4 Qs8's, two for the surrounds and two for the rears, or would I be better off in buying 2 way type bookshelf speakers for the surrounds and rears?

Receiver questions....Almost done
Based on my budget, I have been reading a lot of posts regarding the Yammy 1400, Denon 2805, and the Pioneer Elite 53TX (soon to be 54TX) I know the Auto EQ is favored by many and not-favored by some, I'm not using that as my only basis for these recievers, however, I think it might be a nice option as a starting point. I have not heard the Yammy, but when I auditioned the above B&W's mentioned, I listened to various music and DVD movies on both the Denon and Elite. I was leaning towards the Elite before the audition, but now am thinking the Denon might be my choice based on what I heard....

1) If I end up getting the M80's will either of these two units drive these 4 ohm speakers or should I stick with the M60's. I've heard Alan mention that Denon is no problem, is he referring to all Denons?

2) What is all your opinions on THX certification. The Elite has it, but the 2805 does not. The local sales people say I should not use that as a basis of my decision, however, some people on the forum boards say it should be?

3) Will these receivers be adequate to drive all these speakers? I've heard some people purchase a seperate Rotel amp to drive the mains, and have the Denon drive the rest?

4) And finally, what is your opinions on purchasing from Online retailers. Denon and Elite are specific in saying warranties will not be honored from unauthorized retailers. There are so many online/Ebay that have great prices, but it worries me on the Cust. Serv. type issues down the road. I can get the 2805 locally for $740 bucks which is about $160 lower than your Crutchfields, Ultimate Electronics, etc...but a little higher than some of the so-called Online sellers.

Sorry to be so lengthy, and again thanks in advance for any advice you can give.....

Randy

The Epic 60 Would do u fine an Dandy the QS8's are phenomenal i love them suckers , i can tell u this my room is smaller than yours but the QS8's round the Sound out so it jus fills in an doesn't sound like it is coming from one place which i really like, Since u have a room that Size may i recommend an SVS Subwoofer ? i have the 25-31+ but u might wanna go up to a bigger one even though mine rattles the Windows an the Bass is just Awesome. The Reciever, i have heard both the 2805 an the Pioneer 53 TX to me i thought the Pioneer sounded better. THX Certification well it is one company paying to have the logo on their equipment it is not that important i own a Harman Kardon an haven't found the need for it so i do like the H/K sound i have the 525 series maybe u wanna look at the 7200 i have heard that it is a smokin piece of equipment and as for the Axioms, call them up an talk to them they are really nice people an will not over sell u , also call SVS an talk to them too gosh i love the Bass offa mine lol it is jus Solid an u gotta love Bass that u can feel hope that some of this helps u , an others will chime in to help u taoo Latraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Sirquack,

Yes, all Denons will drive the 4-ohm M80s without any hassles, and so will all H/K receivers. Yamaha in the past has been iffy re 4-ohm loads and I'm unsure about the 2400 and 1400. Ask Yamaha, and be sure to ask, "Will the Yamaha 2400 drive a 4-ohm load at full output, without current limiting?" Stay away from Pioneer if you want to drive 4-ohm M80s.

You will likely need to run two subwoofers, given the huge room volume (9,500 cu ft.). The subs don't care where you sit. They simply have to pressurize the total room volume they "see". Anyone I know with a room that large is running two subwoofers.

Auto-EQ is a crock and can make good speakers sound bad. Turn it off. Use the auto-level setup, etc. THX has certain requirements for power amps which are worthwhile but in receivers I don't think it's worth it.

If you are male and over 30, it's extremely unlikely you can hear above 16 kHz, unless you grew up in a forest with no horrible noise-making leaf-blowers and other such devices around. Besides, there is very little music content of importance above 15 kHz-- a few harmonics of violin, piccolo, and cymbals.

I think you mean B&W, not B&K. The B&W 703 is comparable to the Axiom M60ti. As to the QS8s, you can explain to the salespeople that a dipole/quadpole/bipole surround is used to mix movies in mixing studios, because the whole point is to mimic the ambience of reflected sounds generated in large cinemas by rows of surround speakers that line each side wall. In the relatively small rooms in homes, if you used direct-radiating surrounds, there is not enough reflected information to effectively mimic the soundfield of a large cinema. But if you use a multidirectional radiator, you generate a rich soundfield of ambience that will extend to listeners who are not in the sweet spot. Direct-radiating surrounds are fine if you never move out of the sweet spot.

I even prefer QS8s for multichannel music reproduction as well.

Regards,

I think Alan about covered it for you.
Regarding the QS8s, to the best of my knowledge nobody here that has QS8s (or QS4s for that matter), would go back to directional surrounds. Totally superior for surround movie effects, IMO.
And I have had great results with supplementing my Denon 2802 with a budget 2 channel amp.
Good luck.

Thanks a lot everyone for your comments, I feel a lot more comfortable now, and yes Alan, I was just testing you on the B&K slip-up.:)

As far as mounting/location of the Qs8's, I know for the side surrounds you want them slightly behind, and I believe like 3-6 feet above the listening area on each side of the room. I have a Sanyo Z2 projector and am planning on the back seating row to be elevated behind the front row. Would I want to place these slightly behind the back row, or besides the back row which would be slightly behind the front row?

Also, I curious how much actually comes out of the rear channel, and would I be justified in purchase 2 more Qs8's or mayby Qs4's versus smaller bookshelf type speakers?

I plan to mount the Qs8's from the ceiling, and am still trying to figure out if the FMBracket will work to hang them low enough, or if I will have to come up with some DIY design so I can hang them far enough below the ceiling, without blocking the top/bottom drivers? Not sure if this would be a good idea, but my wife was wondering if anyone has used a heavy netting material, not fish net, but something heavy with large enough holes to allow the speakers to breath and not cover/restrict them. It would seem you could hang them down to a desired position, and the speaker cable would kinda be hidden through the center of the material upto the ceiling?

Thanks again ehhhh.

Just one more bit. A few of us have compared the M60s and the B&W 703s. Almost identical sound, with the B&Ws being 3X the price.

I suspect the folks who were confused about the QS8s have never heard them . They are truly special speakers.

Finally, the 2805 is an excellent choice ( I use the 3803).

Well Alan, I emailed the owner/sales man of the local AV store in my home town about the whole surround topic, here is his email to me...I thought I was lengthy, above, Can you say I'm more confused now then I was....Randy

Here is my 2 cents in response to the speaker mfg's comments. As a hard core hobbyist with 30 yrs experience particularly in regards to speaker design, I apologize for the length!

At the core of the debate is whether special added effects are more important than accuracy of reproduction. The surround dipole/bipole speaker originated during the Dolby ProLogic days when no dedicated rear channel signal was available from the recording process. The surround signal had to be matrixed from the left and right channels with the resulting limitations.

In some people's minds, by using surround dipole/bipole or similar speakers, a certain amount of added "ambience" could be added to the rear channels helping to hide this limitation. Solving the problem this way was a lot like putting on cologne to cover up body odor instead of taking a shower. However, no shower was available until Dolby Digital and DTS came out. Now the ability to record 5.1 independent channels full range 20hz-20khz meant that the
surround signal could be manipulated any way the recording studio wanted with all of their hundreds of eq and processor knobs! Cologne in the form of dipole/bipole speakers was no longer needed! Recording studios began to
change....

If you don't believe that the fidelity and accuracy of the sound is severely compromised with surround dipole/bipole speakers try this comparison. Take any brand of dipole/bipole speaker small enough to be wall mounted for
surround use (excluding large Magnepans/Martin-Logans, etc), wall mount as per THX specs where the tweeters fire down the walls away from your ears and where the speakers are located directly to the left and right of your head.
Feed them the FRONT channel left and right signals using music you are familiar with. Take a similar priced pair of direct firing speakers, from the same brand if you like, and place them underneath the surround speakers on stands and point them in directly at your couch. Now listen to
the music. It's unlikely you would give .20 on the dollar for the dipole/bipole even if they are the same brand. There is no treble because it's pointed down the walls, and there is no bass because it intentionally cancels on dipoles. All that is left is a extremely colored midrange from wall reflections and a grossly distorted tonal balance. Even with bipoles that don't cancel bass, packing 2 drivers in a cabinet already to small for one means the bass that is there is boomy with no extension.

If the recording studio really wanted you to hear no treble, no bass, a highly colored midrange and poor tonal balance, they could have recorded it that way in the studio with the independent channels that 5.1 offers and all
of their hundreds of eq and processing knobs! So ask yourself, why come up with Dolby Digital/DTS full range 20-20khz bandwith recording capability to all 5 channels only to recommend using dipole/bipole surround speakers that
can't begin to reproduce it?

The speaker mfg. defends his position by claiming that all recording studios use bipole/dipole speakers to record their mix. Many studios do not and the number is growing because careful listeners prefer the accuracy and freedom
from coloration that direct radiator speakers offer. Even if all were recordings were mixed using dipole/bipole speakers the way the speaker mfg suggests, I still believe he is missing the point*. The goal for the system
isn't to sound like a movie theater** with all of it's coloration, the goal of the play back system is to accurately play back what's on the recording and direct radiators due this radically better than wall hung
dipole/bipoles. Although it may be sensible in a commercial movie theater to trade away freedom from coloration for coverage, consumers can come closer to having both using rear channel direct radiating speakers because they can easily define a listening sweet spot in their living room with proper speaker set up. This is especially true with the addition of 6.1 and the rear center speaker. Add to this adjustable time delay settings plus endless user adjustable A/V receiver DSP modes enable the user to change the ambience to ones taste. If you want more echo and coloration just punch one of these sound modes.

Try the demo I suggest. I think you will find that although I'm a militant hobbyist, I'm not wrong. After that any input you would like to give back is welcome.

Thanks for your time. John

* I believe he has fallen into the faulty logic trap that Bose uses. Research Bose did in concert halls claimed that 8 parts of sound reflected off of the walls for each part that hit your ear directly. Bose then designed the 901
model to fire 8 drivers at the rear wall and only 1 driver directly at your head. The flaw in this reasoning is that the ratio of 8 to 1 reflected versus direct sound is ALREADY ON THE RECORDING and that the 901 was adding
this to the recording a second time!

**If you've listened to the sound carefully at theaters, you would probably agree that even a modestly priced home theater sounds better.

I actually think the guy has a point. Many dipole/bipoles do NOT sound as good as direct radiators.

However -- and this is very important -- he obviously has never heard Axiom's quadpoles. To my ears, they don't color the sound, even when wall mounted.

In reply to:

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...because they can easily define a listening sweet spot in their living room...

---

For those who have a dedicated HT room, this might be true (I can't say.) For those of us with the "HT" in the living room, it rarely is. Living rooms share this with movie theatres: Most people sit outside the sweet spot. Like a movie theatre, my goal in my imperfect living room is to spread out the sound as democratically as possible, not to create a single sweet spot for a single individual.

YMMV.

I don't know. It sounds to me like he's contradicting his own argument. First, he states that bipole/dipoles are no longer needed to enhance surround effects, because the studio can now do that in the mix.

"Now the ability to record 5.1 independent channels full range 20hz-20khz meant that the surround signal could be manipulated any way the recording studio wanted with all of their hundreds of eq and processor knobs!

Then he says, to prove this try sending front speaker signals to bipoles/dipoles wall mounted, and to direct radiators just underneath the bipoles/dipoles and you'll see how badly they sound.

"Take any brand of dipole/bipole speaker small enough to be wall mounted.....Feed them the FRONT channel left and right signals using music you are familiar with. Take a similar priced pair of direct firing speakers.....Now listen to the music. It's unlikely you would give .20 on the dollar for the dipole/bipole even if they are the same brand."

Wait a minute! First don't use music to test surround speakers. They are intended to provide ambient surround for movies not music. Having said that, I find the QS series surrounds fabulous for music in a 5.1 or 6.1 configuration. Yes, direct radiators might be preferred for SACD and DVD-A, but you aren't going to suffer with QS series speakers when listening to either format. Ask BigJohn.

Wait a minute, again! Of course, the signal intended for the FRONT speakers will not sound right on surround speakers. That signal is INTENDED for direct radiating speakers. Seems to me the correct test would be to send the signal intended for the surrounds to both sets of speakers to see which does a better job of functioning as surrounds. After all, he claims the bipoles/dipoles are no longer needed because the studios now can mix the surround sound themselves. Again you should be using movies, NOT music, for this test.

Next he claims "There is no treble because it's pointed down the walls, and there is no bass because it intentionally cancels on dipoles." The QS series surrounds have the tweeters angled, not "pointing down the walls." The loss of bass when using dipoles may or may not be true, I simply don't know. And, frankly, I don't care, because the QS series surrounds are not dipoles. They are bipoles x 2, which = quadrapoles. Regardless, you have a subwoofer to carry the bass, and bass in nondirectional. (Did I say that right?)

I agree with Peter. I doubt this man has ever heard the QS series surrounds. IMHO, they provide the best surround experience I've ever heard.

Oh, how I'd love to be the guy to hand this guy's a** to him on a plate after demonstrating the QS8s for him.

Well, I think he's just trying to sell some speakers, but I think he's blowing smoke in order to do so.

I love how he implied that bipoles ADD special effects to the signal.

"At the core of the debate is whether special added effects are more important than accuracy of reproduction."

Bipole surrounds don't ADD anything to, or subtract anything from, the signal. They simply diffuse the signal provided.

As an intersesting side point, I should mention that I hooked up the QS4s to the front channels in place of the M50s the day I got them (since I didn't have the cables, studfinder, anywhere to put the things on the sides of the couch, etc.) and listened at low volumes to make sure that all the drivers were operating. They didn't sound too bad in front. (I had them standing on one side so as not to obscure the woofer.) A bit diffuse, but not as much as I expected.

You may or may not like the sound of Axioms, but if you buy some you will likely be extremely happy with the QS8s. They do not color the sound at all. They do provide surprising amounts of bass. They do match my M60s perfectly - I mean perfectly.
I don't understand all that talk about colorations, even TonyGeno had no timbre-matching issues with them!

Thanks everyone,
I do plan to buy the Denon 2805 from him as they beat Ultimate Elec. and American Elec. by $150 bucks, still higher than the internet dealers but I feel more comfortable buying locally in case of warranty issues.

Jack, I bet your right, he would love for me to buy some B&W's from his store, however, the 703's I liked are twice the money as the M80's. I could look at the DM604 S3's which are about the same price...

One thing I haven't got answered yet is for my rears do I want more QS8's or maybe Qs4's? I didn't think much was produced from the rear channels, and I could save a little money?

Also, there is no wall to the right of my listening area and it seems I read a post once on this site that a person stated it sounded like he had 2 Qs8's on one side since there was no wall for the sound to bounce off of.....

I wanted to thank you all again for your input, something inside of me keeps telling me to just get the Da#% Axioms and be done with it

Randy

"It is pronounced Iowa, not Iowaaaaaaa"

Ah, the old 7.1 question... Most 7.1 users around here go for QSx for the side and Mx for the rears (M2/M22 are the most common). For the 6.1 crowd, it's a 3rd QSx for the rear. I'll let others explain it, since I'm still trying to figure out if I'm actually hearing surround sound out of my QS4s or just a lovely little semicircle of sound just in front of me.

I hate to bring this back up because it sounds like you have your mind made up, but I think if your surrounds are going to be very far away from the LP (like say 10-15ft) then maybe the direct radiating speaker would work well - having more room to disperse the sound. If your surrounds are going to be close, then definitely QS8s (or 4s).
Like kcarlie said, for 7.1 most people here seem to opt for m2s in the back.

Qoute from Alan
I even prefer QS8s for multichannel music reproduction as well.
I too am debating the back surround decision. I have 2 60's 150 front and 2 qsm sides. BTW to sirquack I have moved my couch 1 foot behind, equal to, and 1 foot in front of the qs8's which are 6" off the ceiling and 4 ft above listening position and you really can't tell the difference,you don't have to have them set up behind you, they seem awesome in any arrangement.I don't know about your salewsman, but my ears tell me these are great speakers. I am 13' from the front and I have 13' behind me so i am still not sure which way i will go on backs. Alan seems to prefer that the ambient sound even on Sacd is better served with qs8's rather than direct radiators and I am leaning that way.

Here is an address that will take you to a drawing I quickly created in Microsoft Paint.

http://www.freewebs.com/dkma/pics/htroom3.jpg

I didn't draw the entire room, as I didn't think you guys cared about where to pool table and BAR are going to be...Anyway, this gives you an idea about how much of the left side of the room will be used for the HT area.
* I have 9' ceilings and the Projector, Surrounds/Rears will be mounted from the ceiling, I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to mount the QS8's or 4's, I may build a DIY mount so I can allow enough room for the top driver to breath...
* I'm guessing the surrounds will be about 6 ft. to each side of row#2 which is elevated to see over row#1. The rears will be about 5 ft. behind the back row.

So based on what we've been discussing and seeing that lovely Picasso, what do you think....Randy

In reply to:

---

BTW to sirquack I have moved my couch 1 foot behind, equal to, and 1 foot in front of the qs8's which are 6" off the ceiling and 4 ft above listening position and you really can't tell the difference,you don't have to have them set up behind you, they seem awesome in any arrangement.

---

izub, THANK YOU. You just saved me some time, buddy. Believe it or not, I was going to move the couch around to try that this afternoon. My QS8s are 35" above the LP, and 6 inches in front of it. During movies, sound effects from directly behind sound like they are coming from a speaker mounted in the wall 18" behind my head. At times, I'm looking at the QS8 wondering how they just did that, instead of watching the movie. My girlfriend just laughs at me (after saying "wow!" on many ocassions).

I have to agree that they are excellent for multichannel music as well. They do not change the sound of music, but they simply make it impossible to localize the direction that it is coming from. The fronts and center build the "stage", and the QS8s just distribute the music to every corner of the room. They add to the feel of listening to a live act on a stage by not creating 2 distinct soundstages. You don't feel like the same band is playing both in front of you, and behind you, at the same time. I've experienced this effect before, and it was annoying.

Last comment. The QS8s make the surround sound experience in my HT sound better than any other HT I have ever listened to. That is all I can say.

sirquack, that looks fine to me. I didn't realize you will be using a FP. Why not go with 3 M60s or 3 M80s across the front? One M60 would only cost you $50 more than the VP150 and would give you a perfectly matched front in every respect.

Thanks BigWill for the idea, I guess I've never really given it any thought of using another floorstanding speaker for the center channel? I didn't really draw it in the picture but I'm going to build a small stage in front of the wall and below the screen to place the speakers. I've also considered mounting the vp150 from the ceiling and pointing slighly downward towards the listening area?

The most frustrating part about all of this is deciding what is the best way to go, I get frustrated when i go back and forth from AVS to this forum, as one guy will tell you Axioms are harsh and bright and sound to loud at all volumes. One guy told me if i want to crank up my old metal music from the 80's, Axiom's are great, but for HT they lack much detail. I know most of you own Axiom's so your not going to bash them, I am very impressed with all the positive threads and reviews I've read, I guess my own ears will have to be the judge.

I feel my speakers are going to be around a lot longer then the receiver, as technology advances, so I want to make the right choice, and then find a receiver that matches good to the speakers I select. I was planning on the Denon 2805, but know have read many threads regarding that the Elite 54tx would have a much warmer sound and the Denon is to bright for Axioms. Another guy on AVS from the UK, had some testing specs from various receivers, showing that the continuous power of the Denon when driving 5 channels falls way down, whereas the Yamahas, and Elites held true to their specifications. The Denon does not have enough power? My original choice was the Elite, so maybe I need to give it a second look, now that the 54tx is coming out with newer features, including 100mhz componant bandwidth...what is a guy to do, this is worse than computers...at least that is my profession...:)

So it sounds from a few posters above that I should consider a direct radiating design for the rears instead of using Qs8's or 4's?

Randy

Great! Do you have back speakers as well? If so which ones? thanks

Hi Izub, no actually I am trying to decide which way to go on a new speaker package purchase and a new AV receiver. It seems the more I read the more confusing it gets.

In regards to a receiver, I've narrowed down to the Denon 2805 or Pioneer Elite 54tx. I almost bought the Denon the other day, but now I reading posts about the lack of continuous power when driving all chanels. And comments like the Denon is bright or electronic sounding versus the warm, detailed sound of the Elite? I know a lot depends on what speakers you match with what receiver.

For speakers, I am about ready to cut loose on an Axiom purchase like the Epic 60 or 80 system, possibly with an extra set of Qs8's or 4's for the rears. But then other forums I see people saying Axiom's are to bright, harsh, and may be good for heavy metal music, but not HT. On the other hand, you fine folks on this site, say the opposite. I realize many of you may be biased as Axiom owners, but many of you have tested against other speakers and I think your sincere...

I'm still trying to decide if another pair of Qs8's would be needed for the rears, or if smaller direct radiating speakers would work better for the rears. Also, mounting the Qs8's down from the ceiling, low enough not to disrupt the top driver is a concern. I wonder if an extension can be used with the FMB so they can hang lower, I've heard some people use that bracket to mount from the ceiling and aim the speakers slighly down.

www.freewebs.com/dkma/pics/htroom3.jpg

Randy

Alright, sirquack, I've been cleaning the garage and slamming beers so you'll get it unfiltered here.
All that stuff at AVS is BS. The Denon, Elite, Sony ES, etc... all will sound about the same. Any way you cut it, driving 7 channel with a single receiver (for HT purposes) is a difficult proposition. You can supplement whatever receiver you choose with a modest amp and be sitting pretty.

The Axioms you're looking at will be awesome for HT. Period. M2s, M3s or M22s as the rear surrounds in 7.1 seems to be accepted around here as the best way to go. Qs8s on the sides.

You may not like the imperfections that the Axioms reveal in some recordings (like '80s metal). You would do well to either audition some Axioms or just order the fronts only and see what you think. 5% discount will still apply should you decide you like 'em.
Good Luck.

Thanks, BigWill
Ditto that on slamming beers, gulp, and I should be cleaning my garage !!! but talking to you guys is more fun and educational. I know some of the posts I read I take with a grain of salt, and I know some of them are very accurate and factual.

I'll just trust my judgement and run with it man. I think choice of speakers is probably more important than receiver choice. The speakers will probably last longer as the AV receivers features change. With that said, I'll probably end up going with an Epic 80 or 60 based setup, and will have to decide on the rears before I order. I'm thinking of taking advantage of the factory outlet for additional savings.

One thing I'm still debating is why it sounds like Denon's or HK's are the best choice for the M80's. Those Elites feel like boat anchors as beefy as they are, so I'm suprised they would not be able to drive the 80's 4ohm load? Aren't they considered a high current type of design? I know Sushi was a former poster on this forum, and I thought he and a few others around here really have been positive about the Elites and there combination of warm sound are a great match for Axioms?

Randy

Randy, there's a lot of pure hogwash I run into when scanning other audio forums that I don't participate in. Get a receiver with the features that you want at the best price you can find. The Pioneer Elites should be just fine with the M80s. There was a brief period a couple of years ago when they they were shutting down all over the place, but the problem apparently had to do with the adjustment of the protective circuit, rather than some basic design problem, and was corrected. Yes, you recall correctly; sushi was among those who had a 45TX and had no trouble with his 4 ohm speakers(he certainly found no "warm sound" silliness to exist, however).

Just to comment on the receiver sound part..

Yes, the Denon should sound electronic. Any receiver not electronic would not be able to make noise above 0 Hz, and that is no good. When tested, even companies like Denon overrated their power output, and honest power ratings are hard to find in mass market receivers these days.

The Pioneer Elite is warm and detailed? In audiophileville, warm = rolled off highs/bloated midbass, detailed = clear, neutral and revealing highs. That's like saying it's hugely small. The AVS people are contradicting themselves already. If an amp was that horrible that it was 3-4 dB 'brighter' or 'warmer' on any part of the frequency range, then it should not have even left testing stages. 99% of the solid state amps out there have ruler flat frequency responses. I'd say the only differences are how they sound when pushed hard, and how they sound when a loud bass transient comes along. Both dependent on watts. I was able to compare a NAD C372 to a boombox amp - there was no discernable difference in sound, unless I put the volume up, of course. No brightness, no warmth, no difference. And if there was some sort of difference outside of watts taking place there, even without a blind test - it definately wouldn't be worth the headache to find out what they were and purchase based on it.

I'd recommend the HK receivers - just for the(usually by 20-30 watts) conservative power ratings, and for the manually adjustable crossover. You may want 80 Hz for the whole system, but 60 Hz for the M60s, and the HK can do that.

and if I may suggest.. instead of an epic system, I'd buy all of the components except for the Axiom sub - and get a HSU or SVS instead. They're renowned as basically two of the best sub companies, and have been said by many people and reviewers to be substantially better than Axiom subs of the same price. an STF-3 or an PCi 20-39 would easily outperform the Axiom sub line, for a lower price.

just wanted to update you all on my decisions:

Aug 27th, ordered from the F.O. 2 M60's, 1 VP150, 1 EP350, 2 qs8's (plan to order 2 more qs8's in the near future). Lead time on the Mansfield Beach was 4 weeks. Amie emailed me recently and said I'll have them by Sept 15th, next week, , ok I'm a little excited.

Purchase a Denon 2805 locally for around $700 smackers new, not bad for a local retail store...

Wanted to thank you all for the many valuable posts and suggestions! Looking forward to providing updates and pics of my HT that is currently under construction. Yeah, I guess I jumped the gun and got my toys before it was all finished, oh well, a guy has to have his toys...

Randy

Nope... I'm 5.1 only, and I have no intentions of going 6.1 or 7.1 based on the hundreds of "ho hum" posts that I've read about them. My room just isn't large enough to support the use of back channels.

One thing you may want to reconsider, since you do hav the 4 week lead-time, is to cancel the Axiom sub portion of the order. In most of Axioms own chats you will see that 99% of the people that talk here on a regular basis own another brand. I went with Outlaw Audios. I do know that there is a killer deal out there on the HSU. May want to rethink and get feedback.

thanks Lomb7 for your comments. I have noticed many threads mention removing the Axiom sub and replacing with SVS, HSU, Velodyne, etc...However, I have also read many threads where people are very pleased with the Axiom's? I know I probably could have got another brand cheaper with possibly better performance, however, it was important to me to match the Mansfield Beech. If you consider what I'm replacing, an early 90's JVC Pro Logic receiver, small AR Center, 2 small Infinity Bookshelf surrounds, 2 1980's Pioneer 4-way CS60 turbo bass loudspeakers (like new condition), and NOOOOOOOOOO Sub at all, I think this system will blow my socks off in comparison. Maybe down the road some day I'll be as picky about HT as I am fishing or golf.....

Good job, sirquack, I'm sure you'll be happy as a pig in shiit with the new stuff. I'd love to have the SVS 20-39PC+, but the EP350 is more than adequate, IMO.
What color are the grills?

I went back and forth on the grills, ended up getting the black grills with the mansfields. I'm thinking about painting the back wall around the screen black, and the side walls a darker maroon, red, or something else. When watching movies with my Sanyo Z2 in the total light controlled room I'm thinking the walls surrounding the screen will disappear. I'm also thinking about painting part of the ceiling in front of the screen (about 5-6ft.) a darker color also to prevent any light reflection.

As far as the grills, my wife thought if we went with the matching grills it might be easier to see the mains, center, and sub...but with black front grills that might help them disappear.

I'm already grinning from ear to ear anticipating how freaking awesome this will be when done. I built a stage below my 9'ft. wide 16x9 screen to hold the center and mains and am also building a platform for the second row seating folks....

One thing I'm trying to figure out is the ceiling area for the HT portion of my basement. Most of the ceiling is going to be drywall, but I'm cosidering doing the HT area which is about 15' x 18' with some 2'x2' ceiling tiles. Basically to have future access to wiring. I have a Sanyo Z2 projector currently using Component to my Toshiba Prog. Scan DVD. However, I am thinking about going to a DVI DVD Player at some point in the future that upconverts to 720p, 1080i. If I use drywall, it will be more difficult to change out the cabeling in the future, and the way technology changes, who knows when DVI will be replaced and I'll need a differant projector.

Any thoughts on preplanning for this? I am trying to think of a way to trim something in a small oak boxed in frame or something that matches the rest of the room trim. I could route this over to the projector. If it is constructed with screws I would have access to it in the future.

I'd definitely go with the false ceiling. Not only will you have access to that area, but I'm guessing the tiles you put up there won't reflect so many soundwaves as dry wall. Maybe some of these guys know of specific ceiling tiles made just for that purpose? Or try a Google search.
Good Luck.

I too am in the market pretty much for a entire home theater setup. I am building a dedicated HT 14x16 (not big) I think I am going with either the BenQ 8700+ or the new Panasonic PT-AE700U (less then half the price) projector that is coming out in a few weeks. I have pretty much decided to go with the Axiom's with 2 HSU subs. Some one from this forum was nice and offered to demo the Axiom epic 60s for me here in Houston. ( can't wait) I still am totally lost on the receiver part of my system. I am leaning towards Rotel's RSX-1067. The Denon 3805 is less then half the price, but not sure if it is even in the same league.
Anyways, I am just wondering if you got your speakers? I am wondering what you think now that you have them. Were they what you expected?
Thanks.

See here -- I think he was pretty happy.

Funny, I already read that and did not even realize it was from the same guy lol. Congrats on your purchase, Nothing is better then doing tons of research and when you finally get the product knowing it was the right choice. When you second guess your self you feel sick everytime you look at it. I am about 45 days away from closing on my house, and I can not wait to start purchasing and installing my HT equipment. My wife just shakes her head every time she sees me reading all the forums for hours at a time, But hey, that is half the fun I think.