Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo CD Players

There seems to be a lot of level headed thinking in this forum, so I'd like to pose a question. Im thinking of buying a CD player to compliment my new M80's. The consumer brands tend to be disapearing in favor of dvd/cd/mp3 players. I guess this is alright. But what I'd like is a single disc player, not a changer. The prices seem to go from about $29 for the sale paper stuff to several thousand dollars.
Now here's my question. How much difference can there be in the sound?
Obviously, with speakers, there are so many variables and it is generally true that you can expect to get what you pay for.
But with digital music, the optical reader is reading +'s and -'s. There isn't room for the physical effect that used to occur with tonearms, drive systems and cartridges in the old record albums.
So when I read descriptions like "slamming bass, greater detail, greater depth of soundstage, etc, I wonder, how can this be?
The digital information is all there, how can one deliver "slamming bass" that another cannot?
I'm wondering if this is in the same category as speaker cables, one of which I was reading after on Ebay today. It claimed, "extended bass", "tubelike" response, "detailed highs" etc. I use a tube amp for my guitar. If I could purchase a speaker wire that produced tube response, I would go for it!
I'm ready to be educated. I was curious about an NAD CD player that runs about $500. It is well spoken of. But then someone compared an expensive player (cant remember which one) to a $50 Toshiba!
Thanks for any responses, especially from those who have personal experience comparing the expensive models with the cheaper ones.

Dan

Dan, I have several different megachangers which certainly are identical in "sound". Any well-engineered player, regardless of cost, reads the digital 1s and 0s on the CDs perfectly. A more expensive player may be more sturdy and have a longer service life, but there's no way that its 1s and 0s will sound better. The perceived differences which you've seen described in players(or even pieces of wire)are largely nonsense; one difference that does exist is that different players can differ slightly in their output levels. When comparing players the volume has to be equalized(within about 0.1dB),otherwise a difference in loudness too small to be perceived as such can be instead characterized as better "bass", "detail" etc.

Get a player with the features that you want at the best price that you can find, but don't worry about "sound".

I should also add that I am using a Technics CD player from about 1986-7, one of the first generation players. It still works fine, although it seems to want to skip more than it used to. Would a newer player have any practical improvements in reading through scratches etc?

CD source does make a huge difference.

It is correct that CD carries only 1s and 0s. However, the laser head MUST BE good enough to pick up the value CORRECTLY when the disc is being read in real time. There are different grades of laser head and prices vary of course. A good CD transport may cost thousands of dollars.

On top of that, DAC (digital-analog convertor) is a very very important component in a CD player which converts digital signal into analog waveform. It is the compoent that reveals the "extended bass" or any other quality in the recordings. If any of these quality is lost during the convertion, the rest of your system (speaker/amp) can never recover it. A DAC may cost several bucks to thousands of bucks depending on the quality.

You cannot expect the same performance from the $50 toshiba player and the NAD cd player which received positive reviews from many magazines/websites. And without a good CD source, you can never tell the performance of the rest of your system.

So what you're saying is that if you capture the digital bitstream coming from the digital output of a $50 toshiba player and capture the bitstream coming from an expensiveWadia transport (to name one), and then compare the data bit for bit, there would be significant differences?

Has anyone ever done such an experiment? If not, it should definitely be done.

I'm curious as to why everyone assumes that a digital out is always used. Call me old school but I thought most people used analog connections unless their CD player was absolute crap.

In my opinion, I wouldn't spend upwards of a $1000 on a cd player but I would definitely spend more than $50 for a Toshiba. Price rarely equates to performance in a linear relationship. I've said it before and I will say it again, my 14yr old Sony 5 disc changer sounds better than:

MY Sony DVP755V $249
Sony DE595 $199
Denon 884 $499(?)

Something about the changer is just inexplicably musical. Call it the placebo effect if you will but I went into the comparisons thinking that newer technology is better and that my 755V would mop the floor with everything else but the old changer still comes out on top. I think there are more factors than DAC quality, but I can't get too technical as I'm not a EE just a guy who knows what he likes.

This is an interesting article which happens to explain some differences between cheap cd players and better ones.

http://www.republika.pl/mparvi/digital.htm

Unfortunately "musicality" cannot be measured by any scientific mean. It may be hard to accept by those people who believe in science rather their ears.

No offense. I believe in both science and my ears.

Well, not every laser will read 0's and 1's 100% correctly. Even on new CD's there may be some read errors (and definetly on scratched discs) that player will try to 'correct'. A bad player will just skip without even a try.
If you use digital (coax or optical) output then thats all. What your player read that it will (should ) send to amplifier/reciever.
But if you use analog line-out's, then there is one more step - digital to analog conversion. DAC's really make a big difference in sound. Good quality 24 bit DAC's are not so expensive, but manufacturs still prefer cheap dacs to reduce product price. Bad . And there is no (legal) way to transfer SACD streams to digital out - you must use analog outputs, so DAC quality is even more important.

If you want a player that also play's MP3's chek how it handles bitrates >128kbps, does it allow random play. Some players have terrible loading times and big pauses between tracks, others cut songs at the end etc etc.

Some players have noisy cd-transports other skips after a year or two because laser diode life is very limited /actually all laser diodes have a limiter life-time, i don't understand how 20 year old players still play /.

You get what you pay for.

p.s. pardon my English

Johnk;

Where do you live? I would like to take my Musical Fidelity player over to your place and get a couple of other ears. I want you to show me its all in my head. I must be hallucinating everytime I listen to music. I'll bring a SPL to make sure loudness on all players are the same.
I'm not kidding. I can fly to any place in North America for only taxes.

Regards;

Saturn, i believe our beloved JohnK is a US citizen, however such offers should be given to anyone on the forums no?
I hear Waterpeg, i mean, Winnipeg is nice this time of year.

Which MF player do you have?
If i recall their Tri Vista series are tubed are they not? I don't remember much about their other units. Will have to take a look tomorrow.
I'm presently searching for a new cdp and i had my eye on a used Rega Planet. My wife really liked the lid mechanism.

Anyone who tries to sell the myths about clock jitter and such need to do alot more reading on the proven science and less reading from websites lacking credibility or data. Head over to Ars Technica and talk with a guy named Semi...

If what's being suggested here is that all cd players sound the same regardless of whether you're using analog or digital out, then I side with Saturn here - I have definitely been able to hear differences between CD players. I had a mid 90s entry level Sony cd changer for a little while, and then I stepped up to a Sony SCD-CE775 SACD changer, and there was an extremely noticeable difference between the two - the newer player clearly sounded much better (we're talking regular redbook and analog out).

Or are we saying that all DACs sound the same now? Oh sorry. Yes. Um - I could hear no difference. They sounded completely identical. 1s and 0s, etc.

Are you saying jitter does not exist? Care to share some reference to the proven science you're talking about?

I have a cheap $150 SACD/DVD-A player and it was worth buying. It is not the best Hi-Rez player but it does sound good!

Endless threads on these hi-rez players at www.ecoustics.com.

seamonster,
Do a search on the forums for jitter and look at some of the responses from Semi, sushi and Alan Lofft.
This topic has already been discussed.

chess: You know what will happen you get Semi & I in a room...
As with my reply to JohnK it is just a verbal challenge and would not go all the way unless I am provoked. Its more of me saying I would definitely try to disprove you if you gave me a chance to prove...which is mute point unless I really show up and do the test. I still love JohnK....kisses...
Chess I picked up the MF A3.2. I was actually going to get a Rega Planet 2000 until this guy brought down his price to the price the Rega was going for. Both CDP are great...lots of detail and warmth in the presentation vs my $150 made in china Kareoke DVD player. Try the Rega with any low power integrated amp and Proac monitor. Its sooooooooo sweet in the midrange.
As with the clock jitter over digital I don't believe in that. But the other sum of the parts in the CDP can make it a better all around player.

AdamP88: I also have found the same results. Just 3 nights ago I did a A/B between my MF and a cheap $150 Malata Kereoke player. It was different between the two at the same listening level using a switching A/B passive premamp using the same (copied) CD.

Thanks.

I too must say that not all cd players sound the same. When listening to some speakers at a local hi-fi shop, the difference between their Linn cd player and they're denon was significant. Both going through the same Rotel reciever, and played back on the same speakers.

Chess: Over the last little while I revisited some of the other myths that I seem to practice. Wire & Amp

Wire: I have come to the conclusion that wire does not really matter.

16g OFC copper $15
12g Monster XP Time align $87
14g Audioquest Cinema $28.60
11g Kimber 4TC $180
10g Audioquest Slate $400

Test subject: Fiancee with perfect bill of hearing based on visit to hearing doctor.

As I switched the wires during testing without shutting down the music. Her comment was "When are you going to switch the wires?"

Amp:

With all my listening and with the help of other people I have come to the conclusion that my lower powered Bryston 3B sounded more correct or musical than the higher powered 4B. And both sounded better than the Pioneer receiver power all at the same SPL level.

As with all these findings I would welcome any visit from any Axiomite and prove me false. It would be hard for me to lug all my gear to Waterpeg for a demo. And I would visit if a

1. There is a mountain close by to either snowboard or mtn bike
2. Some really big huge event worth going to
3. Some that interest my fiancee ... pretty much anyhere where there is shopping

Audio Myths:

1. Wires are all the same
2. solid state amps are better than tube amps or vise versa
3. Cd players/DAC are all the same
4. faulty A/B listening test
5. Transferring to digital will improve the sound
6. Green Sharpie takes away the sharpness of CDs
7. Flat response curve speakers will sound better than non flat response speaker irrelavant of price
7. JohnK's preaching

didnt you forgat something about jupiter being in line with mars, and the moons gravitional pull??

bigjohn

Saturn...you're confusing me. In one post you say all wires sound the same...in your very next post you say that's a myth. What's the deal dude? You hitting the long weekend brew a little early?

Saturn, I want to send you a test disc to try out. I'll PM you for info.

In regards to the sound differences of cdp in general, i haven't had a chance to hear any 'boutique' name cdps as of yet so the few comparsions i've done have all been with typically priced box store units. We've detected no distinguishable difference in sound other than signal strength, hence SPL between the Denons, Panasonics and Toshibas that we have heard.

However, build quality can certainly clean up sound to some extent. Of that i have no doubt. Our 2 year old Panasonic dvdp sounds fine, but the transport has begun to make a louder whirring noise and a more mechanical click during the disc swap. This is not unexpected and most likely due to normal wear and tear, but had we bought a dvdp with a better build quality, these issues MAY not have arisen, or at least not this soon. The higher whirring is now slightly distinguishable during quiet passages or lower volumes from the distance of our couch to the dvdp.
As for DACs, i personally believe that the modern spec differences between many units far surpass that which the human ear can detect, but it is possible that each DAC may not create an identical analog signal depending on how it was designed to interpret the digital code. Technically they should all be as accurate as possible and hence linear in their frequency response, but many cdps, especially the more expensive boutique names, also incorporate other technology onboard which could potentially change the sound (e.g. digital filters, oversampling protocols/methods, dual DACs per channel, etc.). I need more information about this yet before passing any judgement on functional differences, and i need to do more listening with some "upscale" brand name units for A/B comparisons.
Maybe once i get the Rega (if i get a Rega) i can begin. Too bad your Musical Fidelity would be too hard to ship. I was looking at just that very unit, as well as the A308, earlier today.

In reply to:

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Saturn...you're confusing me. In one post you say all wires sound the same...in your very next post you say that's a myth. What's the deal dude? You hitting the long weekend brew a little early?

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That list was a mere joke. It is seemingly the growing list of snake oil preaching in this forum. If the list was fact then the comment of Johnk would not be there.

My earlier note on findings that wires did not matter much was the outcome of tests I did a couple of weeks ago...I forever stop saying Kimber rules.

I thought perhaps...but wasn't sure.

From my listening experience I've found that cables make little difference. CD players do sound different, and amps can sound better but not the night and day differences that I hear some people preach.

That's just been my experience.

chess: I'll go find the CD locally and do the tests. I would be too scared to ship my player via any courier. I had my old Bryston 2B come with a dented faceplate. In that price range I would suggest:

MF 3.2
Rega Planet 2000
Cambridge Audio 640C (but I found this transport noisier than the higher end players)
CEC 3300
Creek CD53
Arcam FMJ23

Now if I could upgrade my ears. THAT would be the ultimate audio tweak!

Say, how come someone doesn't design ears that channel sound toward your eardrums better? A plastic surgeon could make a killing off audiophiles that way.

In reply to:

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A plastic surgeon could make a killing off audiophiles that way.

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Just include a line to the effect of "the bass becomes more effortless, the highs more extended, and the soundstage becomes completely 3-dimensional and lifelike" and you'll have people easily willing to drop $50k or more on a new set of ears.

Spiff,

I couldn't agree more. I believe in everything you said.

spiffnme;

Based on my listening test ... under $400 players sound alike. $400-$1200 sound alike .... $1200+ players sound alike... So a multi disk Sony doesnt sound any different than a Toshiba single cd player. But when you compare a $300 to a $800 to a $2400 player ... each will give you a different sound and give you more and more detail... Again that is based on my findings. That is why I do not agree with some of the experts views on Cd player.

(All based on CDN prices)My $190 Malata kareaoke DVD/CD player does sound as good as my $600 Cambridge Azur 640C. The Cambridge has lots more detail. The Malata sounds more thin. Doesn't have much bass. My $1950 Musical Fidelity 3.2 had just a little more detail than the Cambridge but focus on instruments were better. But more detail nonetheless. I can demonstate this to anyone that wants to demo my setup.