Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Do some expect TOO much from bookshelve speakers?

I am curious, has anyone else noticed that in many posts about "bookshelve speakers" (in general), there seems to be some expectation that they will sound like floor standing, or towers?
I know many who buy the bookshelves........ have budget, and/ or
space restrictions. (I'm talking about speakers in, or around the Axiom price range).
I mean, for around $200.00 , and their small size, there are going to be some limitations.....i.e. bass, etc.
Anyway, what do you guys think?

I read this post with great interest. I was about to say that bookshelf speakers are not necessarily lacking in bass, and here are models that will prove you this point.......

But your statement "(I'm talking about speakers in, or around the Axiom price range)." left me wondering about the speakers I have heard that are better at reproducing quality, accurate low bass than some larger tower models - including almost anything made by the popular mfg'ers - including Axiom.

We often discuss prices and value points on this board. The speakers that I have heard that definitely are good at reproducing bass would be deemed expensive by the board members. A list of Reference 3a MM decapo, Castle Durham, Totem Mani 2 (one of the best speakers I have heard), JM Labs Electra 907, Proac Tablette - to name a few are all exceptional pieces that are not inexpensive.

We talk about there being no correlation between cost and quality - but maybe, just maybe the better quality components in the higher cost models does separate the haves from the have nots.

Those who know my mindset understand that I am a "higher end guy", but do enjoy the Axiom AX3's I own. I am usually objective, and rarely look for a fight.....so take this as merely random thoughts and musings!

Them's fightin' words.......

Oh, wait. They're not.

They can be...if you want them to be......

How about this - after breaking in my $100k Wilsons, connected via $20k Pierre Gabriel cables, I can definite state tha all amplifiers DO NOT sound linear, or the same. In fact, my heavily modified ASL tube amp warmly delivered the sound of my Linn turntable with eliptical stylus, vastly superior to the sterile sound of the CD players - painstakingly delivered from Walmart (as we all know ALL CDPs sound the same)......

sorry, I can't do it with a straight face!!!!

when i got the M1ti's, i expected them to be lacking in bass, because of all i had read and heard from people on this forum. i knew i had a good sub as a back-up, so i wasnt too concerned with that. the speakers actually ended up surprising me with the amount of overall volume and clarity they have. i never bothered to turn off the sub and run the M1ti's direct to see just how much or how little bass they did or didnt have. but, i can say that the mids are strong, and the highs are perfect.

and i think that 'economy' or 'affordable' bookshelf speakers, are gonna be lacking. it is far fetched to expect a $200 pair of bookshelves to rattle the windows.. thats not what they are made for. i think if you KNOW you are gonna need a sub, then you can be pleased with a bookshelves performance. just my opinion.

bigjohn

I ment the usual speakers "reviewed" around here.
There are many "exotic" speakers out there............ some are "small".....AND great sounding,....but my post was mainly about those lugging all those speakers to and from the stores, expecting big things out of small, (low dough) packages.

I can say I REALLY liked what I heard from the Energy Veritas 2.2 bookshelf speakers. Some day I'd love to have a pair in my bedroom in a 2 channel setup.

In the Axiom price range I don't think it's too much to ask for a bookshelf speaker to be clear and neutral sounding...Ascend, Energy C-3 are two that come to mind. But to expect them to have deep bass, or fill a large room is high db levels is simply a misunderstanding of what a bookshelf speaker is designed for.

Granted, as you get into some higher end models, the bass gets deeper, the amount of db's gets higher, and linearity gets smoother, but that's the case with pretty much any type of speaker...bookshelf or floorstanding.

In reply to:

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We talk about there being no correlation between cost and quality

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I have no doubt that it has been stated that way somewhere here on the boards. But, in my mind at least, that's not how I would put it. I would say that there is not necessarily a correlation between cost and quality. In other words, Price is no guarantee of quality. I'm sure there are more expensive speakers which are superior to Axioms. Perhaps even some less expensive ones are superior. I have my doubts, but who knows? Likewise, there are more expensive speakers that aren't.

It's worthwhile to keep in mind that "superior," or "better" if you prefer that word, is a subjective decision. Speaker "A" may be shown, by every measurable test possible, to be "superior" to speaker "B." BUT! If Johnny prefers speaker "B," for whatever reason, then, to Johnny, speaker "B" IS superior.

By buying Axioms, I feel that I'm getting more speaker than I could expect for the price I'm paying; the old "bang for the buck" thing. Since my wallet isn't very deep, the Wilsons aren't even in the running. So, the Axioms, for me, are a "superior" speaker. Do the Wilson' sound "better" than the M60s? Having never heard the Wilsons, I have no way of knowing. I'm sure you feel they do. Do they sound 100 times better than the Axioms? Again, that is subjective decision I'm not qualified to make. Am I disappointed that there are "better" speakers available? Hardly.

Well stated...and again, I agree and have stated this in the past - if YOU feel it is worth it, and the value is there....it is worth it and each person must be allowed the freedom to choose!

LT, I think that the term "exotic" is very subjective - after all, everyone has their own relative scales that they would apply for costs. To me, Axiom falls in the low end of audio, but I bought them because of the sound quality. Do I term some of the models I quoted exotic? No, to me, and maybe others, they are everyday pieces.

I guess if you had of termed it "sub $500 bookshelves", the watermark would be easier to follow.

Note that I am not picking a fight, just trying to point out that sometimes a measuring stick is needed.

The $300.00 to $350.00 bookshelf market is tough, there are many good competitors. You have the Ascend 170's, the Axiom m3's, and the Paradigm mini monitors just to name a few.

I am actually in a quandary with my m3's as im not sure if I prefer the mini monitors or ascends to them. The all sound great in their own way, my only beef with the m3’s is it is light for my taste in the midrange. If you read the reviews at audioreview.com you will see they are all favored speakers and highly regarded.

Perhaps its best to say you cant go wrong with any of the lot, but again its “YOUR EARS” that decide. If you can swing it, audition all you can in your home and go from there.

Maybe my post was TOO general......I don't often go into great detail.
Far as "high end audio" goes...... I personally use a "justification mindset", to decide what to purchase..... i.e "do I need those Martin-logans.....to be satisfied?" Will I enjoy them enough to go the extra $$$$$$$? etc.
For now, I made a good choice (for me) with the Axiom's.

I think the Martin-Logan's look "exotic" to me.

Absolutely, I was not attacking your choices, just point out the differences between our thoughts.

I think most people approach purchases the way you mentioned. Some people are able to and willing to go beyond others. There is nothing wrong with any approach...except when those making the choices are attacked for doing so....or insulted for doing so...as we have had on the board recently.

>>I am curious, has anyone else noticed that in many posts about "bookshelve speakers" (in general), there seems to be some expectation that they will sound like floor standing, or towers?

Absolutely. Back in the bad old days, those people were the ones who fuelled the "big boomy cheap speaker" market, who took their (sometimes) decent sounding bookshelf speakers back and picked up speakers which could at least play loud and deliver bass but usually paid a high price in other aspects of sound quality.

Now things are better. Many people have heard of subwoofers so they have another expansion path available today... adding a sub and using the bookshelves as "big satellites" (eg. my "M2 + big-ass sub" system).

I was a bit spoiled though -- the first "purchased" bookshelf speakers I owned after years of homebuilding big towers were the old PSB Betas -- 8" woofer with servo amp -- so I got REAL good bass from my first bookshelf speakers