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#7969 - 01/25/03 11:32 AM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4832
Loc: western canada
Oh my lord WELCOME BACK!

You've missed alot.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#7970 - 01/25/03 01:59 PM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
Randyman Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 184
Loc: Honolulu, Hawaii
fhw, JohnK, chess... (and others)

Thanks for the welcome back! Glad you didn't forget me....

It's true - I missed a lot here. And as time rolls on, I will try to read some of the older threads etc. but that takes time. I missed the lively (and often humorous) discussions here, and the help et all. But what I REALLY missed was beautiful music from my M60s!!!

Back to the resistors though...

To me, it seems to be (somewhat) a defeatest approach to solving a problem with the speaker that (at least in my mind) doesn't exist. As I have stated in the past, the effect of a horn loaded midrange or tweeter often does cause listening fatigue because of their design for "aiming" the output to a smaller area in space (thus intensifying - i.e. increasing the SPL for those frequencies. The Axiom tweeters were NOT designed that way, they are just very efficient! If you experience a bit of listening fatigue on SOME recordings - is it the best solution to alter the sound for ALL recordings (by installing the resistors)?

Granted, some recordings that I have listened to do indeed cause me a bit of fatigue - but most do not. So (fhw) I would rather "tone" the sound down a bit on those particular recordings rather than permanently "alter" the beautiful, bright, clear sound (the way Ian designed them) of those wonderful speakers.

(Oh, ain't this grand!)

Randyman



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#7971 - 01/25/03 08:39 PM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4832
Loc: western canada
I agree with the decision to maybe use the temporary treble option over the more semi-permanent resistor option.
But i'm more miffed at how different the sound recording companies mix the tunes. Why do they have to enhance the high end?
Why why why?
Maybe they should make 2 copies, one for general re-sale and one as an 'original sound' mix for those who have decent systems and decent ears.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#7972 - 01/27/03 06:13 PM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
jkohn Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 96
One thing about the tone controls is that they may not have the effect you really want. For instance my Rotel 1066's service manual states that the treble control operates at 10khz; but I've read that the frequencies that we as listeners associate with harshness/brightness are actually much lower than that, around 4-6 khz I believe. Now the treble probably filters on a slope just like EQ (since it's essentially a very simple EQ), but I would think that if you're trying to reduce output at 4-6khz using a control that has the most effect at 10khz isn't the way to go.

So maybe the resistors would be better in this regard, I don't know. I'm waiting for mine to arrive, and I'll probably give it a try since I can alway change it back.

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#7973 - 01/28/03 10:53 AM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
alan Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3189
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Jkohn and Bonjour Randyman, Bienvenu!

(After 7 years of French in Canadian schools, I have to use it now and then to keep from getting rusty). You are right, Jkohn about the tone controls. It depends at what frequency the "hinge" of the treble control begins. The Rotel's hinge is much higher than usual, not uncommon in "audiophile" tone-control circuits. Most treble controls on mainstream receivers begin acting in the midrange, around 3 kHz.

And yes, Randyman, permanently installing resistors is a trade-off. For example, the sound of brushed cymbals was a bit muted on the M80ti's (with resistors) compared to the M22ti's without them when I A/B'd them. I also compared one M80ti in mono with the resistors to the other without. Same result. The resistor will uniformly reduce tweeter output across the spectrum that the tweeter covers. In the M60 and M80, that would begin approximately at the crossover frequency at 3,500 Hz.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#7974 - 01/28/03 05:51 PM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
jkohn Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 96
In reply to:

You are right, Jkohn about the tone controls. It depends at what frequency the "hinge" of the treble control begins. The Rotel's hinge is much higher than usual, not uncommon in "audiophile" tone-control circuits. Most treble controls on mainstream receivers begin acting in the midrange, around 3 kHz.


This makes sense, because in the past when I've tried to lower the treble a bit for those problematic "bright" CD's I've found that it helps some, but not much, and at the same time it totally removes the "air" from the sound. I'm thinking with the resistors, I might actually be able to raise the treble a notch, since it's at 10k and would restore the "air" without affecting the brightness too much. We'll see, can't hurt to try...


Edited by jkohn (01/28/03 05:54 PM)

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#7975 - 01/28/03 06:54 PM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
truenorth Offline
regular

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 7
I would agree with Alan and the rest regarding the effects of resistor on high frequency response... Over the weekend I removed my 2.7 ohm resistor and replaced it with 1.2 ohm and yes some of the attenuated high frequency signal is back and my ear has not complainted. My conclusion to this entire episode can be addressed with speaker placement and installation of low resistor value pending room layout... By the way, the cost for two resistors and connectors was less than $5 from local electronic surplus store.

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#7976 - 01/29/03 09:59 PM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
gem41573 Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 171
Loc: Northern NJ
Anybody know which ohm resistor I have received from Axiom? It says 7W1R8 on the outside. If it is the higher ohm resistor, I probably won't use it with my M22's, as I only find a slight hint of brightness that I am trying to remedy. Thanks in advance.

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#7977 - 01/29/03 11:28 PM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
Joe90 Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 71
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Gem, you have the 1.8 ohm resistor. I believe Axiom also sends out a resistor rated at 2.7 ohms.

Joe90

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#7978 - 03/06/03 12:19 AM Re: M60 ear fatigue?
TheTruth Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 12

I have reduced the output of the tweeter in my M3 a full 3db. This has kept my M3's from sounding like the worlds largest tweeter (my wife's comment.) You can do this by placing a 2.4 Ohm resistor in series to the tweeter and a 20 Ohm resistor in parallel to the tweeter. This will greatly reduce the brightness, harshness and fatiguing problems with this tweeter. I turn up the treble knob on the preamp to add some sparkle and life above 10KHz. I have found with the resistors and a slight increase of the output above 10k turns the little M3's into a very nice warm sounding reproducer.

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