Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Odyssey amp with m80s

Some people may also say "the truth hurts". As long as that truth comes in the form of discussion and not name calling nor demeaning inferences, then why would hearing facts be considering as beating up on someone?

My pet peeve is people that come onto forums and post a load of baloney spouting nothing but marketing jargon they read on websites then try to defend it without a shred of real world proof. So many self professed audiophiles fill this category.

I say if you like the sound and hold those beliefs, fine, but if you are going to post around these ideas as being fact (or sell them as many audio salespeople do), you should expect an opposing opinion. Just because someone refutes an idea on the level of scientific proof does not make them individuals with a god complex.
No one likes to be proven wrong, but bitter apples will not change the tide either.

I think prz (Tony) has ideas and Semi had some knowledge. I feel like i personally know alot more about clock jitter now even though Alan had once described it in a prior post (and i don't recall anyone objecting to Alan's opinion at the time). Tony still believes it is an issue, Semi does not.
Can the human ear actually hear a sound freckle that occurs at a nanosecond point?
I certainly do not believe this while others may ask, what is a nanosecond?
So who is right?
Well, perhaps if someone could produce a simple scientific fact, from a paper or a decently published book on how small a time scale human ears can pick out changes then i'm satisfied. I know it is a high standard to hold since these articles must be researched at more than the public library but hey, that is the standard to which i hold my facts. They have to be proven, pure and simple.

In the world of electronics, there is very little that cannot be measured especially in regards to audible and even (human) inaudible sounds.

For one i'm glad that the Axiom forums have been filled with more fact than myth.

As far as clock jitter goes I just modified my Shanlind cd player with an Audiocom clock & Audiocom power supply. Also put in some new Harris diodes, Black Gate caps, & Vishay resistors and I can tell for for a fact that from the first cd play after installing the new components the sound quality is tremendously better and it is getting even better with some burn in.

Just my listening opinion nothing scientific and if it didnt sound better or was even a mild improvement I would say so.

Steven, i'm glad your additions make you enjoy the music more.
You should upload some pics of your system sometime. I'm always interested in seeing what others have built.

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nope, I was told that good ears hear waveform differences caused by patterns of couple of pico-seconds deviations

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I'd be interested in anything scientific you've found that indicates this as it would be incredibly interesting to read. However, the more important part of what I was saying was not whether or not you can perceive the difference but that the tiny difference we're talking about is so small, it's present on everything silicon based and you aren't going to find a better solution. As such, I'm skeptical of claims to hearing improvements when the other solutions would carry the same jitter and that jitter would be so small as to be insignificant compared to everything else in the design of your system.

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but femto, I pull my hat off, that's what, fractions of inches for light in this time ;-) You guys must have fun, sounds
bleeding edge.

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Our products below 200 femto seconds are all Silicon Germanium based and definitely cool. It would be a lot more fun if the telecomm and networking markets would rebound as they're about the only people on the planet that actually care about this level of precision.

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so, not sure I follow here, so if you say that I reconstruct something around 10kHz with 10 microsec clock (that's 1e-6 if I'm correct) (which means I'll need at least 20kHz samples to do it anyway decent, that's 1/20*1e3 = 0.5 msec = 500 micro seconds so 1 microsecond clock jitter could be already 0.2% difference on the timescale). Could we hear that one ?

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I don't think I'm nearly qualified enough in human perception measurement to answer at what percentage of the original signal the human ear begins to perceive the difference. On that, I default to the only scientific information as to what people can and can't hear that has been presented in this thread, Alan Lofft's experience with the Canadian research center. If the general consensus from that PURELY scientific community was that it isn't perceptible I'd tend to believe them above someone trying to sell me their product...

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Could we hear that one ? My experience with image processing (was a hobby long time ago) suggests to me that just couple of those are surely not to be heard but if such difference happens in a predictable pattern like jitter on another pattern (like music material) I can easily imagine we are able to tell recognize it's going on in an incredibly exact fashion

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The problem is that the levels of jitter you're talking about are on the same scale as the process deviations in silicon ICs. The only way you're going to eliminate that jitter is with a significantly more expensive technology (the SiGe we use is a good example, GaAs is another as is InPh). Syncing anything together in this fashion won't help you simply because that synchronized clock signal will still have the same levels of jitter as its an inherent result using silicon based tehnologies.

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I don't understand why there is a claim around that sync'ing the clocks between the transport and the pre-amp should buy me anything.

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That's because those claims don't make sense. I assume it's just creative marketing.

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The clocks are
independent and there is a buffer inbetween so the effect should be zero, is that what you say ?

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Yep. More importantly, your synchronized clock signal won't be carrying any less clock jitter as jitter is in everything. Hell, even spacetime has jitter.

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I just bought 190$ silver interconnects. Just for the kicks ;-)

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I bet they look pretty cool, too. I figure if you've already spent a few grand on your hardware, a couple hundred on wires isn't that big of a deal if just to have something that "fits" in the over all budget and aesthetics.

That doesn't mean it will result in any improvement as a digital interconnect serves no purpose but to carry a high or low signal. The only possible source of distortion is if it occurs to such a phenomenal degree that highs look like lows or vice versa and it happens so often that the receiver has to issue too many requests for a re-transmission of the datastream while that piece of information is supposed to be played. If you have this happening in your system, you have larger problems than the wires.

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agreed even more. If you want to see something in the audio-visual space that makes your jaw _drop_ look up the work that's going on in
language acquisition. There is a video done in canada or US (some woman I forgot the name off, she's a big shot in children language
development world, Patricia something) where a face is saying a sound [one of the anchor sounds of english language, like 'ka'] and the sound playing does
another key sound like 'ba'. When you close you eyes you hear 'ba', when you open them and see the face you hear yet a completely different
anchor sound, 'fa' or something like
that. It's below conciousness, you can't influence it and the effect is very distinct. As to why, they don't know ;-), obviously the sound we hear
is being modified in the brain by the visual circuitry before it even goes to the cerebreum. So yes, we warp reality unbelievably.

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That's actually REALLY cool. If you happen to come across a link about it, please send it my way. I'd love to read more about that.

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yepp, I wish I would do double-blind-testing but frankly, I'm too lazy for that and probably rather spend $1K on clock sync to see whether I _believe_ it improved the sound.
Much more fun that way, I'm dealing with commercial, analytical, exact, unforgiving science every day at my job, this is a hobby and it should be a little voodo ;-)

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As a fellow scientist, I can DEFINITELY understand that. I just wish I had your budget to play!

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Having fought that problem for a long time in my life (and still doing so) I extrapolate that you're a very knowledgable individual who cares very deeply
about his work or area of expertise and who considers 'truth' as
seen by you overriding any social norms which are of course just 'agreements' and not hard axioms (albeit going into greeks I realized
that moral and ethics are basically axioms that allow society and therefore not different from axioms that hold math together. Even deeper here,
I assume you are familiar with Goedel and Wittgenstein and the conclusion I had to draw from their work [one mathematical, the other philosophical]
that math is as arbitrary and unprovable system as society with contradictions being the nature of the beast in the deepest meaning of its sense ;-).
On more tactical terms, telling people straight on they have no clue what they talk about seldom furthers your cause as isn't lack of modesty as isn't
the claim to be the bearer of the truth. I tend to either patiently explain over and over or walk away from forums like that when I tense up and feel
that 'there are too many nuts' or when I feel the competitive edge coming up. And yes, electronic mediums warp things to the worse also often ;-)

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Understood. I think a larger problem for me is actually that my home on the internet, as it were, is much the exact opposite of this place. Proveable information is respected above all else there and a strong analytical argument is absolutely required. Factual statements that are justified with proof are all that the group really permits in debate which is why I run into so many troubles here where the opposite seems true.

I suppose that's a natural result of the current state of A/V.

Regards,
Semi

hmm, why axioms, pletora of reasons (let me say first I think I did an excellent choice as price/value trade-off):

1. I had no artificial cap on budget so it was only 'how far do you want to go?'. Since I'm a tight-fisted guy and don't believe in high-priced labels (some I do after researching them, I drive a beamer e.g. ;-) I wanted to get most for my money. Both, Odyssey and Axioms fitted in here and I think I was right.
2. I am a big believer in 'internet-review-by-dummies' thing coupled with a couple of experts not being too negative about a product. Again, I think I got a hit here.
3. I am a bloody beginner to world of high-end audio albeit I always loved to listen to music and (dreadfully) sing along. So, I think it's like wine, you can't buy very expensive bottles first since you'd think it tastes like gully since you need to educate the taste and you also have to learn what you like. So a thing like Axiom was probably a good start, I knew I like forward-presentation and detail and it looks like I was quite right here to albeit I seem to mallow out a little ;-) I don't say M80s are beginners' speakers since I can't judge it yet but even if they are and I go into expensive, other gear, it was a good starting point. Maybe I keep them for 20 years, don't know yet.
4. I wanted something very neutral to experiment a lot and see the effects without guessing whether the amp or speakers makes it sound different. Again, Axiom & Stratos seem very neutral on sound.
5. I have this little plan of buying a house right now and setting up a home-theater. Wife will get the M80s and I have a good excuse to go and shop for speakers again in a year or two ;-) I'd go and buy something really expensive now, things wouldn't be that easy and maybe I would hate it in a year.
6. I listened to lots of gear, also very, very expensive and I walked away with the recognition that price from a certain point (about 15k$ for a setup I would say) very weakly correlated to whether you like the sound and that esoteric stuff takes a silly amount of work to get the sound you loved at demonstration out in _your_ home (I don't want to build special rooms and treat them, I don't want to play with fractions of inches placements). The only true exception was TacT, that made me drop my jaw and then the money. The difference is distinct and amazing and actually I have this little feeling that speakers and amp matter much, much less all of a sudden (in terms of very flat frequency response).

'nuff reasons ?

--- tony

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Great reply Tony.

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Agreed.

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The problem we have here is that some "experts" in this forum have a god complex.

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Insulting those with whom you disagree does nothing to further your argument and only identifies an inability to construct a rational and intelligent response.

I could just as easily say that those who protest so much do so out of ignorance and an inability to justify their beliefs coupled with a mind numbing desire to pass those same beliefs off as fact despite their total inability to prove them. But I don't because I CAN'T PROVE IT and it doesn't help our discussion at all.

We having an intelligent and worthwhile discussion here. If you can't stand to see ideas challenged I'd suggest you find a place where every agrees with you. That way you'll be nice and safe in total stagnation. Debate is not only a healthy thing in a community discussing ideas but a mandatory thing for any growth to occur.

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Unless you don't share the same views as them you will get chastised.

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Entirely false. No one has been chastized. I stated my opinion that he didn't understand clock jitter well enough which I then followed up with the pertinent information to help him do so. I think it's very clear now that all involved are well informed of the other person's perspective and the net result is good dialogue and learning on both sides. These are bad things.

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You will always have to prove yourself.

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Why is that a bad thing? If you make a factual statement you are required to justify it. That's the basic tenent upon which all learning is based. It's not something you should hide from but something to be embraced.

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Instead of being enlightened in this forum I leave with a bitter taste in my mouth.

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I'm sorry you feel that way simply from someone challenging you to prove your claims.

I don't mean to tear into you, Saturn. I like you quite a bit and value your input here. However, you bring up these complaints whenever anyone gets into a debate on these fora. Debate is not bad. It's good and should be encouraged.

Regards,
Semi

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Some people may also say "the truth hurts". As long as that truth comes in the form of discussion and not name calling nor demeaning inferences, then why would hearing facts be considering as beating up on someone?

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That's what I don't get. We're just asking for substantiation when something doesn't make sense. And somehow this is interpreted as beating people up. It's basic scientific discussion.

I'm glad you're happy, but I would be remiss to not point out better places to get this stuff if you're looking for basic electronics. The prices at Audiocom make baby jesus cry. My clocks synthesizers are used on telecomm, networking, medical imaging and the actual test equipment used to varify the process that make the other guys' products. To say we're more precise than everyone else is an understatement and we command margins the rest of the semiconductor world would kill for. We also charge a tenth of what Adiocom is charging you for CMOS based clocks!

I really hope you didn't buy the rest of that hardware there also. You can get that stuff direct from the distributors for the companies that manufacture them usually at a 20% margin. We're talking about a few cents for the resistors, caps and diodes here. They may require you to hit a minimum buy target which is usually about $25 for that sort of hardware. In that case, you can order much of it from several chip resellers.

Lastly, never, ever, ever, ever buy a semiconductor component from someone that doesn't provide a datasheet.

Semi, i have this clock at home in my kitchen. It runs on AA batteries and i bought it from Walmart but it keeps falling behind by 5 minutes every other month?
You got any chips i could use to fix that problem?
I don't suppose Walmart has them cheap do they?

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Insulting those with whom you disagree does nothing to further your argument and only identifies an inability to construct a rational and intelligent response.

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I'm the most inarticulate person I know. My head knows how to rationalize the situation but what comes out is sometimes unintellible goob-le-legook. Maybe I should not be answering these threads at work, where poeple look over my shoulders, but do it at a more convenient time when I can articulate myself.

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We having an intelligent and worthwhile discussion here. If you can't stand to see ideas challenged I'd suggest you find a place where every agrees with you. That way you'll be nice and safe in total stagnation. Debate is not only a healthy thing in a community discussing ideas but a mandatory thing for any growth to occur.

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Agreed. If I was never challenged I would grow bored and move elsewhere where I can learn. I'm challenged all the time. Maybe my perception on audio ideas has been skewed by unintelligent salespeople.

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Entirely false. No one has been chastized.

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Yes chastise is a strong word... You may not look at it on your side of things but I was not the only one person who has brought it up. I just sense as do some people on this forum that comments may seem negative and abrupt. And it nots like now we have to watch what we say because this is really just a forum to gather constructive information rather than negativity in comments. Well look at me here I'm writing a negative comments.

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I'm sorry you feel that way simply from someone challenging you to prove your claims.

I don't mean to tear into you, Saturn. I like you quite a bit and value your input here

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I'm touched. I'm joking!!!!!!
All in all as I said many times before I have learned quite a bit from this forum even outside of Axiom products. I value the facts and suggestions by all the individuals on this forum.
Last November I had no idea what HTPCs were all about. And with facts and suggestion by you and Sushi I was able to gather enough info to build my own.

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I'm sorry you feel that way simply from someone challenging you to prove your claims.

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ON the contrary, I have no issue of being challenged. I have an issue of how it was said,rubuttled or worded. Comments inadvertantly can sound negative and bullish from someone who time and time again has to prove/explain to "newbies" what the mass market has been brainwashed about. As in a comment earlier said to me or another indivisual ...

"I wish I had the patience that Chess has .... "

Maybe this forum is getting too personal. Maybe thats not a bad thing.

Regards;
Saturn