Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M2 vs. M3 first impressions (CAGE MATCH !!)

A friend at work was nice enough to lend me his M3s for a couple of days. Took them home this evening and set them up next to the M2s on the bedroom system, hooked to an HK 3270 stereo receiver and Sony NS-315 player.

First impressions :

- M3s look the right size, M2s look too small

- the most noticeable difference is mid-bass... like the Atoms, some instruments are emphasized a surprising amount... but not as much difference as the Atoms

- switching back and forth requires a small adjustment in volume, M3s more efficient than M2s (duh)

- M2s sound very thin by comparison on most music, bigger difference than I expected

- with Atoms you could almost hear (imagine) the resonance around the port tuning, nothing like that with the M3s so far

- difference with vocals seemed comparable to M2 vs. M60, need to do more testing and haul out the Diana Krall CDs

- only listened to a couple of FM stations plus Genesis "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" so far but initial impression is that the M3 is MUCH more satisfying as a standalone speaker, again more than I expected

- speakers are along the long wall of a ~13 x 18 room, not much in the way of reflections off the side, first guess is that is a pretty good near-field environment and minimizes the midrange differences between M2 and M3... or maybe my ears aren't good enough to hear the difference yet

I'm going to do some random listening tonight, think about it tomorrow, and do some more intensive testing tomorrow night.

BTW, I think my friend owns some real classics here. Serial #s M3SE...66. Knurled binding posts instead of 5-way requiring a wrench. Maple/Black finish, seems identical to my M2s except for the size.

OK, it's official. I would have saved a LOT of money if I had just bought M3s instead of M2s at the start. Did I listen to the reviews ? No...

To my ears, in a room setup which minimizes the effect of off-axis frequency response, the M3s give me all the things I like about the M2s plus what seems to be decent bass response and a sufficiently full sound that I can enjoy them without a sub. This is not a revelation, I realize.

In hindsight, here were my options :

Option 1 :

Buy M2s. Beautiful sound but a bit thin on the bottom end. Buy a sub. Move the speakers downstairs. Make the mistake of playing a DVD through the new speakers. Discover HT on good speakers. Continue to complain about sub-to-main matching with a stereo receiver. Buy M60s for music. Buy more DVDs. Get curious about surround. Buy an AV receiver (HK630), hook up the crappy old speakers as surrounds. Imagine how much better 5.1 would sound. Buy a VP100. Hook the M2s up as surrounds. Discover how 5 channel audio is supposed to sound. Still no music system in my bedroom. Buy QS8s, freeing up M2s or M60s for bedroom system. Lend the sub out to family so I have to keep the M60s downstairs and use the M2s upstairs. Lament about the lack of bass upstairs.

Option 2 :

Buy M3s. Listen and enjoy.

what an interesting center channel you have?



bigjohn

That's a regulation Mark IV stinky dog butt, required to keep the imaging consistent when I switch from one speaker to the next. I have to move a couple of feet left and right every time I switch speakers (and adjust the volume)... the dog moves back and forth with me to keep the room characteristics stable.

Just like the NRC

"initial impression is that the M3 is MUCH more satisfying as a standalone speaker, again more than I expected "

Hey Man,
Can you give me an idea as to how much difference there is at very low listening levels?
I am considering either another set of M2s or a set of M3s for the bedroom, but they would just about always be used at very low levels to go to sleep to. Is there as much of a difference when they are both played quietly?
Thanks,

Thanks for the mini-review.

The M3s were the first Axioms I ever heard and to be honest if I had my eyes closed and they had told me they were tower speakers I probably would have believed them, .....yeah I know; I'm a salesman's dream .

They really are amazing speakers.

>>I am considering either another set of M2s or a set of M3s for the bedroom, but they would just about always be used at very low levels to go to sleep to. Is there as much of a difference when they are both played quietly?

I found the biggest difference at low volumes, maybe because the M3 response curve is shaped a bit like the Fletcher-Munson "loudness compensation" curves. M2s sound really good if you crank them up -- I guess the bass becomes loud enough to hear

Based on my limited experience so far I think the M3s are the obvious choice for a low-volume bedroom system. The only (minor) downside is that there is a bit more noticeable bass so more potential for disturbing someone but you're going to be playing pretty quietly anyways.

Note -- if matched with a good sub I would still prefer M2s to M3s. Just had to say that.

Must... Control... Zone 2 Speaker impulse...

Great Review(s),-Wow, I Got Nuttin' to Add!

Except that your friends speakers are about 75 pair older than mine! And to add that the old sticker on the back is-IMO-more attractive than the new design.

I checked into a Mark VII Stinky Dog to help with my acoustic probs, but ran into WAF-so have to pass on that one.

Rich.

Thanks...

Phase 1 of the study is ended. It's obvious that I should have originally purchased M3s instead of the M2s. Oh well.

Now onto the more difficult Phase 2. Do I buy M3s ? M40s ? Go back to the Atoms ? Haul the M60s back up into the bedroom and pile a bunch of boxes around them so they don't look so big ?

M40s still seem like the perfect choice -- I imagine they would sound great at the levels I want, and rather than a small bass "hump" they have a really smooth extended bass down to ~40 Hz.

Unfortunately Phase 2 is going to require hauling everything downstairs so I can compare with M60s. If I test upstairs and carry the M60s upstairs for A/B testing that's going to prejudice the outcome, there's no way I'm carrying them down another flight of stairs after that

Then again if I had budget for new speakers I guess I would have bought M3s or M40s already.

Sigh...

I succumbed to the Zone 2 impulse a long time ago. I'm running Polk rt25i in my kitchen, mounted vertically right up against the ceiling. My only complaint is that I don't have separate volume control for them since they play quite a bit louder than the M22s in the living room.

This was before I had heard of Axioms, of course!

>>Unfortunately Phase 2 is going to require hauling everything downstairs so I can compare with M60s. If I test upstairs and carry the M60s upstairs for A/B testing that's going to prejudice the outcome, there's no way I'm carrying them down another flight of stairs after that

I didn't want to take a chance on scratching the borrowed M3s so I hauled my M60s upstairs instead for some A/B testing with the M3s. The results were very interesting. In that room, playing a wide variety of stereo material, the difference between M60 and M3 is less than the difference between M3 and M2. Yes, it's true !!

You could definitely hear a difference between M60 and M3 but other than that "openness" thing it wasn't obvious which was "better". The M3 does make a few mid-bass instruments (electric bass, bass synth etc..) sound "sharper" which I first guess was the slight bass peak but I'm not really sure.

M3s were a bit more efficient than the M60s, which surprised me. I had to crank the M60s up a tiny bit to match volumes when switching back and forth. There is a whole "deep bass" thing happening with the M60s that just isn't there with the M3s but there doesn't seem to be much that the M3s miss other than that nice solid thump you feel rather than hear.

I was really surprised how well the M3s held up against M60s. I'm going to go back and try a few more CDs but need to get to bed at a decent hour tonight... need an early start at work tomorrow and have to pack up the M3s to return them.

M3s on 24" stands are the same height as M60s for the numerologists in the crowd. "Hmmmm"

John, would you mind running up and down the stairs a few times more just for the fun of it?

One question though. How much more forward sounding are the m60's compared to the m3's? Is it subtle or significant?

Thanks,
Michael.

OK, gonna go out on a limb here and say something silly; like, "The M50 may be the Perfect Axiom Speaker for the average Listener"

Yeah, right, like I'm gonna say THAT!!!

Now, about those dandy M3s:

In all seriousness though, I think I have to agree with just about everything you said based on my experiences of the last couple weeks. I'm guessin' that the M50s are positioned squarely between the M3s and M60s. Maybe even say "The best of both"? (I've never heard the M22s,so I really should temper THAT statement!)

There may be more differences in a larger room of course, for instance I found the M50s to be a tad more efficient than the M3s, but only a teensy 1db.-I had expected more than that!

But Yeah, the M3s really are impressive little speakers that have lost a lot of the respect they had a few years back. 'Bout time we all got reminded of that fact!!

Good show!
Rich.

We'll wait of course for Johns' responce on the M60s, but I can comment on the M50 vs M3.

The M50 surprised me by being about "A Foot" more foreward than my M3s in exactly the same set-up. Enough to be noticeable, but not objectionable. The M3s were at the plane of the TV.

>>John, would you mind running up and down the stairs a few times more just for the fun of it?

Once more and that's it. This speaker testing is hard work, I don't know how Alan manages it

>>One question though. How much more forward sounding are the m60's compared to the m3's? Is it subtle or significant?

That was the big surprise. To my ears there was only the tiniest of differences, maybe like putting the speaker grills on or something. I was almost disappointed

The difference was comparable to turning the vocal track down literally 1 or 2 dB, barely enough to notice. I would have had a VERY hard time time if I was listening to music where I couldn't rely on bass response differences.

Note that I had the speakers along the long wall of a room so the off-axis response wasn't a big factor (that's where Alan says the difference comes from). In a long skinny room I imagine there would have been a bit more difference.

There is much more of a difference in bass response, of course, and that is quite noticeable with some music. The nice thing is that the M3 handles the low frequency instruments well enough that you don't feel like you are missing anything.

After playing a few more tracks the only intelligent thing I could say was that the M3s sounded a little bit "smaller" than the M60s but that the difference was much less than I expected.

The M3s sounded best with their fronts ~2 feet away from the back wall while the M60 fronts needed to be at least another foot into the room to avoid sounding boomy.

I didn't do any SPL measurement but the M3s seemed to be closer to M2s in their ability to fill a large room with loud music, while with the M60s I never felt I had reached their limits even when playing quite loudly.

Bottom line -- even after direct A/B testing with M60s I could be very happy with M3s as my primary music listening system. Not at all what I expected. For now the M60s will stay upstairs and M2s will become HT mains (with a big sub).

Thanks to everyone for the questions and ideas !

And everyone picked on my M3s! Now they get the credit they deserve!

Neener neener!

Bren R.

>>The M50 surprised me by being about "A Foot" more foreward than my M3s in exactly the same set-up.

That's an interesting way of putting it. Rough guess would be that vocals on the M3 sounded like the singer was ~2 feet further away than on the M60.

I therefore deduce that the M60 is a foot more forward than the M50.

Hey guys, ya know what? It's taken years but it looks like we're finally gettin' a handle on exactly how all our speakers line-up in relation to each other. (or at least how we "think" they do) That's got to be worth something!

I had a pair of M3s on 30 day trial, but unfortunately they did not like the little room they were put in. I also ordered them in a color that didn't go well with my decor (or compliment the shape of the M3s).
However, 2x6 and I compared them directly to my M60s and his smaller Michauras. The M3s fared very well - amazingly well for the size room in which we were listening. They're really good little speakers.
IMO, if you're getting M3s for a stand alone stereo system you should order them in a dark color to de-emphasize the steep angle at which the sides withdraw.
And, if you can afford it, do a high gloss finish. The little buggers deserve some nice clothes!

Like my women, I prefer my speakers... oh, never mind.

...wrapped in vinyl?

JK. I was much less concerned about my M60s durable finish than I am about my new S8's veneers. If something happens, I really, really hope the damage is not caused by a neighbor's child.

That reminds me of a recent kid episode. Steven has started to really get into music, and unfortunately, where the music is coming from. Hey, he's my son, right? Anyway, I walk into the living room the other day and he has his hands on an M22 speaker grille. Stupid me, I say with a raised voice, "Steven, don't touch!"

And guess what he does? He turns to look at me, and then starts rapidly swatting the speaker grille with both of his hands.

Little jerk.

BigWill, What didn't you like about the M3s in the small room? I'm moving closer to ordering a pair for myself. Just sent for a few color samples yesterday. I'm in a small room myself (10x10) and know that bass is tough to tame in my space. I use the foam plugs in the ports on the MAs and it controls the boominess, but seems to cut down on the impact of the bass. Was this the problem you had with M3s?

I had a pair of M3s, M50s and have a pair of M2s. IMO, the M3s were the best of that bunch. Wonderful speakers!! About as good as the Michaura M55s.

Well Thanks Man, sounds like that decision has been made.
TjB

Oh-Oh. Ah, such memories!! Why do you think I listened to some old crap Technics all those years.

>>I'm in a small room myself (10x10) and know that bass is tough to tame in my space.

I imagine a 10x10 room would be pretty good for M3s... you should get a nice big boost at 55 Hz which would fit in nicely with the bass roll-off. The 110 Hz mode wouldn't be so nice though... I guess putting the fronts 2-1/2 feet away from a side wall or back wall might tame that a bit.

I found the distance from the wall made a big difference with both M3 and M60, almost like a "bass control". M3s sounded a bit weak in the bass unless I had them ~12 inches from the wall, while M60s sounded boomy at that distance and had to be more like 18" away from the wall.

Again, this is in a wide room with no reinforcement from the side walls.

One other interesting thing I noticed last night...

I mentioned that the M3s seemed to emphasize certain low frequency instruments -- electric bass and bass synth lines both sounded "sharper" (more emphasis on the harmonics). I couldn't figure out how to rationalize this with the known response peak down around 100-120 Hz.

I don't have all the answers yet but here are some more observations :

- failing to adjust the levels when switching speakers made more difference in the "forwardness" than switching speakers itself, ie if I equalized volumes the M60 sounded more forward than M3, but if I did not turn the M3 down (M60 up) when switching the M3 actually sounded more forward than the M60. I guess that puts the difference in the "couple of dB" range at least in my room, which admittedly is an M3-friendly layout.

- when comparing M2 to M60 some months ago I concluded that either the M2 had a slight peak in the "female vocal range" or the M60 had a slight dip, based on a small but noticeable difference in how female vocals sounded even though the rest of the instruments were almost indistinguishable. After comparing M3/M60 I'm now starting to believe that (a) M2s have a very slight peak in the "female vocal range", (b) M3s have a similar peak in the "male vocal range", (c) M60s are the most neutral of the bunch or (equally likely) have their little peaks off at different frequencies which I haven't noticed yet

- the "peaks" I'm talking about sound like holding a small cardboard tube up to your ear, maybe a few inches in diameter and a couple of inches long. This is a bad example and the difference isn't so drastic as the tube would produce, but it's that kind of emphasis

Wish I knew more about doing this, but what the heck...

Over and out.

John

St_Pat, the M3s sound was great in a 14x14 spare bedroom. They lost out to some MA Bronze 2s (a decision which I have second guessed frequently) for a few reasons:
-with no sub, the deeper bass of the MAs was a big plus
-I ordered the M3s in Beech and, IMO, they were hideous.
-I didn't think the slightly chesty mids of the MA B2s would bother me.
-I already had M60s, VP150, and QS8s, and figured a little variety was in order.
Seriously though, the M3s are great and capable of filling spaces much larger than your 10x10 room. Soften the reflective surfaces (so that the Axiom tweeter doesn't overpower your ears) and they are excellent.
I moved my M60s up into that 14x14 room and I'm stunned by how good they sound there. They're hooked up to an early 90s Onk CD player and sound better than they ever did with the newer Denon stuff I have downstairs.

Seeing as how I used to have a couple of Klipsch towers in my room, I don't think the Axiom tweeter will bother me .
Yeah, variety is nice. I need another set of speakers like I need a hole in the head, but when have I let rational thought get in the way my audio hobby? My grand plan is to get into the world of tubes (thanks a lot 2x6!), and it seems the M3s are a good match in terms of efficiency.

So, just to close this off...

During the testing, I found that the M60s could fit into the bedroom if I put them in the right place, and they sure did sound fine up there. The M3s were surprisingly good but the M60s are still even better.

M2s are back downstairs in the HT, waiting for my sub to come back. I was expecting my sister-in-law to send the sub back and say "I never want one of these in my house again" but they seem to be really enjoying it. So far I have $300 of their money in their HT system (cast-off mains, cast-off surrounds from another family friend, $250 for HK130 and $50 for a Quest center) but I haven't had much luck finding a low budget sub. They're would probably have been happy with a real cheap system but friends don't let friends listen to crappy sound, right ?

I noticed a cheap used Paradigm PDR-8 in the canuck audio mart today and will try to grab that. It's pretty small for their room but they don't play very loud so should work out OK. The other option (now that I have an M60 bedroom system and don't need to buy more mains) is to wring out the ole budget a bit and pick up an EP500 or an SVS cylinder (hey, I like the shape) and have them keep the PSB sub.

What is the current thinking ? Has anyone seen any head-to-head reviews with EP500 yet ? My guess is that the EP500 is a bit more accurate while a comparable SVS can play a bit louder but I don't know which is going to be more useful in the new room. Heck, I don't even know if the new room is going to be great or a total disaster...

Going back to simpler things, the M2s sure do sound good in the HT system. Who'da figured ?

... and to close this thread off for good, here's the happy ending :

I was pretty happy with M60s upstairs in the music system and M2s downstairs in the HT system, but with all the minor issues you would expect. The M60s are kinda big for a bedroom, even a large bedroom. The M2s won't play really loudly so for some music and some movies they start to hit their limits... but hooked up to a big sub with a 100 Hz crossover you can go a long way before hitting the limits.

I was about to pull the trigger on a pair of M3s for upstairs so I could move the M60s back down to the HT, when Axiom discontinued the M40s and cleared them out. I think I grabbed the second-last pair (in Boston Cherry), installed them upstairs, and moved the 60s downstairs.

The M40s are perfect music speakers, to my ears some of the best I have heard (but I have always been partial to 2-way speakers for music). With the M60s back downstairs I'm back to having an HT that can fill the room with as much sound as I can handle and still sound good.