Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Help! Troubleshooting possible loss of fidelity

Here's my dilemna, I used to own a top line JVC receiver with a Toshiba DVD player, Cerwin Vega centre channel, CV floorstanding speakers front and Sony floorstanding rears. This setup sounded pretty damn good to me, but I needed something smaller. So I "upgraded" to a Marantz SR5200, Panasonic RP56K DVD, 4 Axiom M1Ti's (front and rear), VP50 centre channel and EP125 sub. I admit, I hear things now in music and movies that I never heard before, but the overall quality of sound, in my opinion, is lower. Was my attempt at an upgrade not really an upgrade? What factors could be attributed to my apparent loss of sound quality? Do you have tips that I could use as a checklist, such as speaker placement, height, connections, and so on? Cheers!

confused,
Just offhand i would say that anytime you go from a floorstanding speaker to a much smaller one, such as the M1s, you will have a loss of overall sound (primarily volume and most likely a loss of a wider soundstage). This was my impression of the M22s vs the M60s when i auditioned them.
You stated that the quality of the M1s is better than your old speakers so perhaps this issue is more related to the size of the speakers rather than you components.
In a sense, you upgraded the speaker quality, but downgraded the speaker size.
It's just a thought.

That being said, Alan has some audio tips here:
Axiom tips by Alan Lofft

and there are some more tips on home theatre setup here:
sound and vision speaker setup/tweaking tips

I don't know if any of that information will help but its worth a read.

To be honest, my first impression is that you're used to Cerwin Vega speakers which will fill a room with noise, but not especially good noise. They're boomy and loud but they way over accentuate bass and mids, totally sacrificing highs. What you are hearing now is most likely far closer to how the engineer intended the recording to sound as CV's are not especially good speakers, but you've grown used to the "wow" effect of having massive woofers engulf the room.

But that's just a guess.

Perhaps you're right, and thank you for those articles, they were quite helpful. I could be used to the bigger sound, but not so much in movies but with music, the lows are defined, the highs are defined, but everything in between seems to get all mixed together, and the results can be disappointing. I have a question about soundstage and toe-in however, I've noticed that when I listen too music, the soundstage is focused directly in front of me, right at the TV. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear the centre channel speaker was on, but it isn't. For best results, particularly playing back 5.1 material, do you want the soundstage from the front speakers to be right in front of the centre channel? Or does that tend to mix the three channels all into one? Perhaps using toe-out would help?

The M1's and EP125 are really 'bedroom speakers' if you ask me. They sound great in a very small room but once you use them in a living room, well, they get very thin.

If you have the cash lying around and still have the 30 day trial, return those speakers and get some much better ones. I'd go with either M22's or M60's for front, QS8's for rears, and if you upgrade the center, go ahead with either an M2 or a VP150.

Hi confused,

Chesseroo and semi-on are right on the money. I'm afraid you upgraded to too small a speaker. Quite apart from commenting on specific Axiom models, an old colleague and friend used to say to me, "you can't get a quart from a pint pot. . ."

The M1 is a very small speaker. I suggest you think about replacing them (or moving them into a surround role--you could use all four) with M22ti's and you'd recover your missing midrange. Axiom does have an upgrade program.

If you are listening in stereo, the soundstage should spread evenly across the front from the left to the right speakers. Are you sure you haven't inadvertently switched your system to mono? Then everything would be focused exactly in the center, as if the center speaker was on.

Regards,

Excellent suggestions, Patchwork.

Thank you for the advice Alan and the others. First of all, could you Alan or someone else give me more information on the upgrade program Axiom has available? I've had the speakers since the fall, so my 30 day period has gone by. Secondly, I'm almost positive that it's in stereo, well.....I know the source is stereo, the receiver recognizes it as a 2 channel, stereo source, so I would have to assume it's stereo.

I'm wondering if what you are hearing is the speaker's ability to image?
Is all the music focussed in the center, or is it primarily the vocalists? On a well recorded source I often ask the kids which speakers they think are playing. Invariably they point directly to the center speaker when someone is singing even though I listen to music only in stereo.

I'll have to double check, I didn't listen to music today, but I'm almost positive it's the voice that's in the centre, and the instuments are more broad, from the centre to the speakers position.

Now that I think about it patchwork, I think you're dead on with the speakers being too small. When I'm listening to any source at low levels, it sounds much better. Once I turn it up to an acceptable level, that's where the muddiness comes in. Assuming there is a trade in program, the M22's are rated at 200W, would my Marantz SR5200 @ 90W be enough to sufficiently power those speakers? Also, anyone have tips for aiming these speakers? Should I try toe-out? Straight ahead? On their sides? Upside down?

Cf, as far as imaging goes, if a singer is in the center that's usually the way it's supposed to be.

That 200W rating is a maximum; most of the time the speaker would be using about 1 watt. 90 would be plenty.

The general rule for placement would be to have the main speakers separated by about the same distance as you are from them. Then toe them in slightly so that the tweeters are pointing at your ears.

Thanks for the info, I'll try the toe-in with the tweeters and see if that helps. I was correct about the voices, they do converge in the middle, I guess I'm just not used to speakers that image that well. I asked about my amp because I was under the assumption that you don't want a receiver rated too much lower than the speakers, because the amp has to provide "clean" sound to the speakers. A low powered amp at high levels would not be able to produce a "clean" sound, therefore degrading sound. Am I even half right?? By the way, is a room 24x20 (that's the dining/living room combined, the stereo is in the 14x11 living room) too large to be using those speakers and the EP125 sub? I asked the dude that sold them to me and he said that it should be plenty.

Yes, but it would have to be playing very loud in a very large room for the amp to run out of power and noticeably distort. Without going into all the technical details about dbWs(which I've done with Ravi in the past)even at a fairly loud average level your speakers are using only about 1 watt on average. During brief peaks 50 or even 100 watts might be used, but most amps having ratings like that can handle even those peaks if they're operating properly. So, it's unlikely that amps of that power wouldn't supply enough "clean" watts, and if it happened it would only be for brief moments at peaks.

I'd really like to use bigger speakers in an area that size.

So......something like the M22's? What about the sub?

Yes, definitely M22s. If you're going to use the Axiom upgrade program, go with at least the EP175, depending on your budget and what Axiom can do for you.

I will look into it. Can you tell me more about the program? Where do I get info? Is there a website I can go to?

No, you'd have to speak with Joe at the toll-free number.

Alan,

You said "Axiom does have an upgrade program." Can you gives us any details about it? I'm always curious about upgrade programs.

Michael