Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: Car Buying

I'm looking to buy a new car and I'm trying to find websites that list invoice prices. Ideally, I'd also like to find the pricing of option packages too. I found a similar site for Ford years ago, looking for similar w/ Honda.

Thanks!

Try Edmunds.com, and/or Carsdirect.com.

I bought (leased) my Audio with Carsdirect.com and it was by far the best car buying experience of my life. I got the best price, and no hassles. They told me the price, I shopped that price around to five local dealers, and not one of them would even match it. Said a-ok to the carsdirect salesperson via phone, and then headed to a local dealer for pickup. Signed my name about five times and drove off the lot with the exact car I wanted. Couldn't be happier.

Thanks guys. That's EXACTLY how I want to do it.

I did a similar thing before. Figured out how much a new Explorer would cost w/ my specific package. Then I called about 5 dealers and told them what I wanted. Told them to give me the best price they could, no haggling at all. I would immediately drive down w/ a checkbook and pay it ASAP w/ the best price. Worked for me, but carsdirect seems a little easier.

Me too. I loved the no-hassle aspect of it. I didn't want to have to go through endless amounts of haggling with dealers. Although some people live for that kind of thing, not me. Carsdirect made it too easy. Made me start to wonder about it, but it couldn't have been easier.

Yeah, I think this is part of the list of the most horrible experiences you have to deal w/ in life.

1) Dentist
2) Doctor's office for the oh so special exam
3) Public speaking
4) Buying a car

I think nothing makes me more mad faster than the statement, "Let me go in the back and ask my manager..." Perhaps those are up there with those dreadful words from your significant other, "We need to talk."

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Perhaps those are up there with those dreadful words from your significant other, "We need to talk."

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Oh no...those four words are definately at the top of the list.

I'm afraid if I go ahead and purchase that Denon 2900 I'll hear them. That's pretty much the only thing stopping me.

Guys, As someone who at one time sold cars, and who is a silent partner in three dealerships, I can tell you the following as facts:

1. If you quote a price to someone on the phone, less than 1 % will come in and buy.

2. If you refuse to quote the price, and rather set an appointment with the consumer, 50% will come in and 22% will come in and buy.

3. The average consumer could not be more apathetic about service DURING the sale process. AFTER the sale, that same consumer will expect the dealer he did NOT purchase from to fix his car.

Personally, as a a businessman, I would LOVE to deal with 10,000 people per month who would call me, tell me the Carsdirect.com price, and come in without haggling ... however, it really is less than 1% of the buyers ...

Hopefully, this (what I just typed) will be interesting ...

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I think nothing makes me more mad faster than the statement, "Let me go in the back and ask my manager..." Perhaps those are up there with those dreadful words from your significant other, "We need to talk."

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I'm with you there brother, I hate that..and let them know it up front. Whenever offered a seat in that person's office I promptly refuse, look at my watch and tell 'em right away that we've got 10 minutes and time is wasting. That usually gets things in order right away.

Whenever it come to me and car salespeople, I turn into a completey different animal because I really don't care to be there to begin with.

Craig
Interesting feedback.

Perhaps the phone quote percentage is small because people don't think it works. But I know it does. Plus I think many people think they can negotiate a better deal in person and are willing to do that. Me, I'd rather pay NOT to deal w/ the hassle and just know that I'm treated fairly.

I also see the problem w/ after purchase servicing. But I think the problem there is the vast difference in quality between service centers. Unfortunately, if you have a great salesman and great sales experience, what if you have a bad service center experience? I've run into that, so now I go to my local shop who's fair and fast. Granted. it's for non-warranty service.

BTW, I'm all for the great salesguy. I'm in tech sales and I understand what goes on behind the scenes. If a salesman goes out of his way to show me he's good at what he does, knows his product and knows how to take care of me, he'll get my sale, even if his price is slightly higher.

I got online quotes already, and my first shot is going to the dealer that showed me the first car a few weeks ago and gave a great sales pitch and was intelligent. People like that deserve the sale.

I get the audi serviced at the local dealer that I picked it up from. No hassles, no problems. This has seriously be a joyous auto purchase.

One thing to also consider ... Most of the guys here are pretty good at surfing the internet.... Most consumers are not. Also, for whatever reason, over 90% of ALL car shoppers love the haggling process. Think about it, Most everyone here owns Axioms. You click, checkout, and you are done... What does the normal audio-video purchaser do... He goes to Best Buy/Circuit City ... or even a "high end" store ... and haggles.... true ?

I also just priced out the Carsdirect pricing ... and they are pretty darn fair. The dealer makes a profit, and the customer gets a solid value. Put it this way, If ANYONE wants a Carsdirect type price on anything Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Volvo, Dodge, Chrysler, or Jeep.., and are having a hard time ... PM me...

OK craig, seems like you're an American car dealer. You can quote me a better price on a Ford GT. For some reason it doesn't come up on carsdirect.com. I can fit an infant car seat in there, right?

The Ford GT ... THAT is a car that has angered MORE dealers. First, they spent so much in resources to develop it, so they could sell 5000 over 4 years. THEN, they sold over half the production to Factory Cronies ...

In the meantime, a GREAT car, the new 500, is ignored by Ford. I bought one in November, and bascially it is a Volvo S-80 with All Wheel Drive and every option possible, and is still under $30,000 ... grrrrrrr

I gotta tell ya, Craig, that I keep seeing The 500 around town, and find myself thinking "Man, that is a nicely proportioned automobile." It's the first car by an American badged company that has caught my attention in a VERY long time.

I know nothing about it, mechanically, I just think it's a really nice looking car.

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American badged company that has caught my attention

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i think those new Chrysler 300's are pretty tight. very aggressive stance. nice looking automobile on the road. certainly doesnt look american.

bigjohn

Those 300s look as American as all get out to me. Now if only GM could do an interesting car (other than the Corvette). Ha ha ha ha!

The 300 is a BEAUTIFUL car ... well engineered, fun to drive ... In fact, if they make AWD an option in the new SRT version, they would have a killer .... 0-60 in 5 seconds flat, four wheel drive, and LOADED ... for $45,000.

And Jack ... The 500 IS all that, balanced, quiet and solid like a Mercedes ... As a guy who is not too fond of driving SUV's, It is refreshing to see some nice domestic cars !

I agree the 500 is a pretty nice looking vehicle. I think the 300 is also an awesome looking one. I believe the SRT Magnum comes out in summer, right? That's a beast. I think after market companies like Dub have done Chrylser well, making the 300 the "bling" ride. Chrysler seems to have played their cards well too, by having a lot of them at rental car places. I rented one in Hawaii.

Ford needs to do more of that in order to keep any kind of momentum on the 500, like they did w/ the Taurus and Sable.

Other dream cars I've seen lately on the road, CLS55 (gorgeous) and the McClaren Mercedes. Then again, I live in Silicon valley. And today in our parking lot, some people have sold some of their options, since they drove the Mercedes G500 and screaming yellow Porsche GT3. That doesn't include our CEO's Ferrari Spyder and Baby Lambo. And here I am looking for a Honda Pilot...

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i think those new Chrysler 300's are pretty tight.

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Funny you should mention that. I was kinda caught by it at first, too. But after seeing one or two up close, I wonder about the visibility; large rear posts, and real short windows.

I was surprised to read, in an article in today's local paper (Cleveland Plain Dealer), that the 300 was among the ugliest cars in a survey conducted by Click and Clack, from the "Car Talk" show on National Public Radio. "The Chrysler 300, a sedan that embodies "Pimp My Ride" for many nonenthusiasts." Not sure I agree, but it WAS funny.

The SRT versions of the 300, the Magnum AND the new Charger are due out this year ... and all three should be winners.

HERE is something that will likely amaze a few people ... The Ford 500 is a larger car than is the Chrysler 300 !

No surprise to me. The first thing that struck me about it, when I pulled up behind one at a traffic light, was how high it sat, and how large it seemed. A lot to like about that car.

What I cannot fathom is how Ford could have that tremendous platform and NOT have a Luxury version of it under the Lincoln banner ... With 203 Horsepower, AWD, and the CVT, it is a solid performer ... Give it the 313 HP engine the Volvo XC-90 has (it is the Volvo SUV built on the same platform), and drop in a Lincoln-Level interior, and for under $40k, NOTHING would touch it ...

but, is there a market for a $40K american sports sedan? your average joe blow looking for a regular everyday driver will most likely be looking at the large scale honda's or toyota's at $10K less, and they know they will last for 100K or 200K miles. and, for someone that DOES have $40K to spend on a sports sedan, they arent gonna want to spend it on an american car.. these are just my opinions.

of course, i am also the kind of guy that drives cars literally, til the wheels fall off. i think it is actually plausable to carry a 4-5 year note, pay it off, and still drive it for 3-4 more years. i get so frustrated with the mentality that you have to trade up and get a new car every 2-3 years. i think its that exact mentality by the consumer that has allowed the car manufacturers to make more and more inferior cars.

again, just my opinions.

bigjohn

I agree w/ John. Most people won't spend the cash for an American luxury sedan, refer to Olds, Buick, Caddy de Ville/Sevill/etc., as a case in point.

There may be a spot for the 500 a la Impala SS of a few years back. That still seems to have a strong following, until the body changed. The Taurus SHO was a valiant attempt (thought the Fiesta Shogun was more impressive). But for me to spend that kind of cash, I'd go Japanese or German.

Guys ... I will tell Cadillac, who is back ordered on the new STS ($45,000 to $65,000) and the CTS is flying off lots ($38,000 to $52,000) that people are not REALLY buying their cars ... And I Will also have Chrysler dump the 300 while we are at it ...

YES, people will spend $40,000 for a full size, quality, AWD domestic sedan. Of course, if someone can point me to the full size Import AWD luxury sedan for $40,000, I will buy it today ...

The SHO was impressive until they changed the bodystyle and dropped in a 236 HP V8. 236 HP? That's not exactly Super High Output.

If the Chrysler 300 were around when I bought my Audi I certainly would have given it a test drive. Pretty cool looking car. Though bigger than I tend to like.

Wife and I test drove a Magnum a while back, I thought it was slick but she didn't care much for it. She did like the 300 and I didn't like it so much...reminds me of a 'gangster' car.

Well ... On The Sopranos, The Lincoln Navigator was the original gangster choice ... then the Escalade ... If the 300 is there for next season, you will have your answer...

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She did like the 300 and I didn't like it so much...reminds me of a 'gangster' car.

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Exactly. That's what's so cool about it. Like the Cord's of the 1930's.

You can probably fit more bodies in the back of a Magnum than a 300 though...

Living in Minnesota, which is renowned for months of snow and ice and really hazardous drivers, I long ago learned the lesson that to invest $30,000 in 4 wheels is a bad idea and a real waste of money. So, I haven't purchased a car from a dealer for a long, long time. If I need wheels, I simply scour the classifieds until I find a private owner selling something I could live with, until some nut on ice smashes into it.

"...STS ($45,000 to $65,000) and the CTS is flying off lots ($38,000 to $52,000) that people are not REALLY buying their cars "

You know, I had not driven an American car in years, but when we were in Florida a couple of months ago we were upgraded to one of the Cadillac Devilles by a swell guy at the rental counter just because we had flown a certain airline.
It impressed the hell out of me. I had the time of my life driving that beast around Florida for a week. Fast, Quite, Comfortable, handled great for it's size, great stereo. I was shocked.
Does not surprise me at all that they are flying off of the lots.
As for the prettiest new American car, I have to vote for the Chrysler Crossfire. I think that one is just stunning.

Investment-wise, cars are a horrible deal, unless you get a truly special car, like a Viper Coupe, Ford GT, Shelby Mustang etc. No cars like that anymore, last I can remember was the ZR-1.

I agree w/ the used route. Last car I bought 3 years ago was a 1999 BMW 528i wagon. Bought it from a fleet lease sale thru a broker. 14500 miles and got it for $30K, local dealers had 'em for no less than $42K. I'm only going new because the newer Pilots have a bigger engine. After having my V8 explorer and high torque BMW, I REALLY don't want a weak engine. Plus my wife wants 20+ MPH. Too bad the hybrid Yukon isn't ready yet.

The reason we're thinking about buying new next time is that we got completely shafted on our used car purchase, and we really really want a warranty. Hint: never buy a Volvo from a Honda dealer. Grr....

I lucked out because my used car still had a warranty.

Yup, new or certified pre-owned is the only way I'm going next time. BTW, we got ours through Carfax, and looking at my repair bills, I can see exactly how much good that did.

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Plus my wife wants 20+ MPH

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Hell, just get her an old 10-speed from the classifieds....

One of the dilemmas in the car market IS the gas milage ... the 500 I am currently driving would have been considered a sports sedan 10 years ago. It runs 0-60 in 8 seconds flat ... seats five 6 foot tall men easily (I am 6 feet, 3 inches, and am comfortable in the back seat with the front seat in my normal driving position. I cannot do that in Accord, BMW 3 or 5 series, Camry or Avalan ... Etc...), and only lacks a nav system versus a loaded Audi A-60. It also has almost 20% more interior room than the Audi ...

The 500 is ALSO AVERAGING 24.3 MPG over the first 10,000 miles. I know of no other car which can claim all this for under $30K ...

One would THINK this level of perfomance, Gas mileage and SUV replacing utility would be raved about ... For instance, My Lincoln Aviator had a higher Percentage of highway driving, cost $48,000, had less usable space, and got 13.9 MPG ... and my 2001 BMW 325 was about the same 0-60, was much smaller, 2WD ... and $38,000...

But my SUV buddies think I am suffering without one ...

Heh... SUV "utility." My wagon has more storage space than most SUVs. Gimme a shooting brake any day. Unless, of course, you're actually doing off roading. In which case, lemme tell you, you AREN'T using an Escalade. Your $20000 worth of plastic body cladding might get damaged!

Yes, MPG. Man, you can't get away w/ anything here...

4 wheeling in an Escalade? What and scratch my spinners?

How about this. I used think Hummers were tough...

Hummer

I've actually ridden in a military hummer during Marine reserve activites in North Carolina. That's not comfortable, my kidneys almost fell out.

The H2 is built on the Silerado platform, with many beefed up components. The original H1, and of course the military versions were much tougher than this domesticated version.

Something that struck me reading this thread: The American and Imported comments. Keep in mind that many of the auto mfg'ers have business units within them that are other mfg'ers. For example, Ford owns Jaguar. The ideas and concepts that emerge from these units is now being shared through out the company. Having worked in a tier supplier for many years, I have seen this "transition" take place. Many of the vehicles "manufactured/assembled" in North America take their roots (and many parts, designs and such) from other companies - most times foreign to North America.

My personal opinions? I do not like the look of the 300, like the 500, and think the Magnum is simply a beefy station wagon!!!
I think the mfg'ers are getting the message that people want something that catches their attention...a la the Crossfire. I spent a lot of time in Chrysler's Arizona proving grounds with the company (designing data acq. systems...) and was amazed at the number of "concept" cars roaming around!

The farthest most SUV's go off road is the driveway.

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Heh... SUV "utility."

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Ah, yes... the new breed of Sport Futility Vehicle.

-Jeep killed the Cherokee for the Liberty?!?
-the Ford E's (Escape, Excursion, Expedition, Explorer) are all glorified grocery getters.
-GM's a bit ahead of the game, they do have a Suburban in a 2500 still, but it's plastic, same with the smaller Yukon and Tahoe.
-Even the Cute-Utes are losing their functionality, a buddy bought the first Chevy Tracker off the car show floor here the first year they were introduced ('88?). I worked with him for a summer insulating, and that sucker with the back seat out would actually haul everything the two of us needed (okay, the scaffold planks hung out the back window, but still). Another friend's got a newer one (200x?) and there was barely enough room in the back for a 30"x24" patio block... two of those in the cargo area set the rear suspension to 80% of it's travel.

There are still people who need SUVs, real ones. I say bring back the Willys!

Bren R.

Fascinating thread. Thanks to everyone for sharing.

I keep waiting for the Daimler/Chrysler partnership to manifest itself in significant ways in the Mopar line. Like others have mentioned, the design of some of the Chrysler sheetmetal is striking; I like the Crossfire, and even though I don't care for them particularly, I can't help but notice the Magnum and the 300. But I still just don't trust the Chrysler running gear. It is certainly possible that I have misplaced perceptions, but I have too many anecdotes from too many people to ignore my reliability concerns.

MPG is frustratingly elusive. We have an aging Windstar van, which I have previously cited as an annoyingly complete transporter of people and things. With gas prices rapidly climbing, I yearn to get better than 17-18 mpg. However, in order for a change to be meaningful financially, I need to drive something that gets at least 25-30 mpg. In that range or above, there really is not that much from which to choose outside subcompacts.

I also want a manual transmission. Why is that so difficult?

Anyway, I've enjoyed reading my Axiom friends' comments on this topic. Thanks again.

Not an endorsement of the eXCURSION, or SUVs in general, but my friend has a jacked-up V10 Excursion which he uses to tow his boat and carry the folks who are going with him. Great for that purpose (as well as launching the boat from the sand and fording shallow areas between the bank and the sand bar). I would have preferred the diesel, but WTF.

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the 500 I am currently driving would have been considered a sports sedan 10 years ago. It runs 0-60 in 8 seconds flat ... seats five 6 foot tall men easily (I am 6 feet, 3 inches, and am comfortable in the back seat with the front seat in my normal driving position. I cannot do that in Accord, BMW 3 or 5 series, Camry or Avalan ... Etc...), and only lacks a nav system versus a loaded Audi A-60. It also has almost 20% more interior room than the Audi ...

The 500 is ALSO AVERAGING 24.3 MPG over the first 10,000 miles. I know of no other car which can claim all this for under $30K ...

One would THINK this level of perfomance, Gas mileage and SUV replacing utility would be raved about

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Styling. That's why. It's like specs of a speaker. May have fantastic specs. Ruler flat graphs, etc...but if you don't like what they sound like...

After reading about the 500, I googled for some pics. Nobody under 60 should be driving that thing.

Style sells cars. If it didn't everyone would be driving VERY inexpensive cars with great gas mileage. 0-60 specs are sexy...not necessary. Sleek styling is sexy...not necessary. Seems that the 500 got itself halfway there.

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After seeing some more pics, it seems that the 500 can be ordered "dressed up". It cleans up nicely, but the standard version is still a real yawn fest.

If you are looking for good mileage, a few cars ago I owned a deisel Jetta. Got me 50+ mpg and I put 360k km (~225k mi.?) on it. It was a pretty utilitarian vehicle back then, but like everything else it looks more upscale these days.

Now I cohabitate with a wife, 3 kids and a dog so have gone the minivan route. Might try to for a big car or wagon next time. Only show stopper may be my wife. She has a bad back so doesn't like stepping down into a vehicle and climbing up out of one.

I have to admit, the Ford 500 viewed from the side does look a bit like an Audi A6 from the same angle (minus the A6's very sexy wheel well sculpting and sleeker hood lines.)

I am not looking forward to our next car purchase. Our "haul-all" is currently a '97 Subaru Legacy Wagon with a flat-4 engine. It does the job powerwise, and we had to get a roof box to fit all the stuff we need to bring with us on road trips (dog, stroller, carseat, luggage, etc.) Now, with another baby on the way, we're definitely planning for larger car in the forseeable future.

Gas mileage is very important to us, but space and utility (not the sport kind) trump that by necessity. Ideally, we would have a hybrid all-wheel drive vehicle with ample cargo space, enough power to accelerate up 7% grades with a full car, and seating for 7 (some of which should be removable to provide ample cargo space). Such a beast does not yet exist (does it?), so compromise is in our future.

We've got our heads in the sand regarding the issue, but Roger's 97 Altima is also getting a little long in the tooth. Our issue isn't what to get when it dies, rather how are we going to afford two car payments? The Altima is paid for.

There's always the California Lottery.

Congrats peter. Didn't know another was coming. We're in the same boat, that's why I'm looking for a new vehicle. (Actually, I'm on labor watch, she's due on 4/27 but there's a good chance my boy, woohoo!, is gonna be early.) 2 kids, 2 adults and a crazy lab need a big car.

The big hybrid is the GMC Yukon hybrid, but don't think that's till next year, last I heard. They've got the engine on the current Sierra truck.

I have nothing against American cars, my last 2 cars were a 1990 Eagle Talon AWD (I LOVED THAT CAR) and my 1996 explorer w/ the mustang 5.0L V8. I drove both cars to death, still have the explorer too.

BTW, I never thought this thread would get this long...

I know what you mean about the need for cargo space, power etc. when the whole fam damly goes on vacation and gas mileage taking a backseat (bad pun) to these. For that, we also own an extended cab 3/4 ton puck-up with canopy. It has the space to haul all the stuff (stroller, bikes, luggage....) and the canoe and tent trailer. But fuel is a killer. To help defray that cost I looked and found a used truck that runs on both propane and gas. Propane in Alberta is about half to 2/3 the cost of gas and gets about 85% of the mileage of gas. Deisel would be an even more economical way to go interms of mileage versus fuel costs but the engine is so darn expensive an option to buy and used deseil trucks just hold thier value too much to make it econimical unless you drive mega miles ayear to recoup the expense.

But with our last child growing in size (2 yrs old now), it looks like an extended cab is soon not going to be big enough to hold everyone and I'll be in your position, dreading the hunt and payments for replacement vehicle. I'm thinking a crewcab truck is the way to go. The big SUV's like a suburban are just too pricey and I don't like sharing my interior space with the dead deer, moose and waterfowl I usually haul home each fall.

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I'm thinking a crewcab truck is the way to go.

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Paul, I've owned pickup trucks every since I can remember and my last two have been crew cab diesels. I've owned both Dodge/Cummins and Ford/Powerstrokes, had luck with both manufacturers. I don't think I'd ever own anything other than a crew cab and it seems like quite a number of my associates and friends are going from the 3/4 ton trucks to the 1/2 ton crew cabs.
I'm cuurently trying to figure out placement in the back seat of my truck for a pair of Axioms...

Whew, diesel down my way is $2.35 and above though.

Spiff ... Most people, when they see the 500 in person, DO think it looks like an Audi. And even though, in your words, I am driving an old man's car at 44 years old, I will take comfort knowing that, for fun, I can grab our 2004 SL-500 or the 2005 Corvette ...

I don't have kids yet, and maybe that's why I don't get it, but do people haul that much more stuff around with the family then when we were all kids? My parents had a regular 5 seat, 4 door, sedan type of car when we were growing up as the big car for my mom, and my dad had a two seater most of the time, and we never had issues hauling stuff around. I guess because of that, I don't see it changing and don't plan on getting a minivan or SUV. For me, my car with lots of storage space was the Acura Integra GS-R I had before my current car, because it was a hatchback. Amazing how much more can fit that way when you put the back seats down.

Are people loading up the whole family and overpacking for a night or two away on a regular basis? If it's a couple times a year, I don't want to have to drive a minivan/SUV around all the time just for that. I'd rather pack a little less and have a car I like, instead of something that holds a lot and doesn't get good gas mileage.

Like I said, I don't have any kids yet though, so maybe I'm just missing something.

Thanks for the recommendation on crewcabs. I think it is the only practical solution for me and our families lifestyle.

Yup $2.35/USgal for diesel sucks compared to a few months ago(it's about the same here when converted from litres) but gas is a lot worse at $3.33/gal. ($0.88/litre). Then again propane is a lot better at $1.89/gal ($0.50/litre).

Zarak, did you have a dog when you were a kid, and did s/he come along on the family trips? If we didn't have a dog, we'd be able to stuff more things in the back of our Subaru. Right now, we try to reserve 1/3 of the space back there for her, and try to cram things so they don't fall on top of her.

I'm curious what thoughts you all have on hybrid battery life. While hybrids seem attractiveright now how much of agood idea will they seem when the battery pack dies and your shelling out 5 grand to replace it? I saw last week that Toshiba anounced a new battery technology that is supposed to go into hybrids perhaps next year: fast recharge time less than 1% loss over 1000 recharges. How many times a day are the batteries being drained and recharged?

Right now I'm waiting to hear what happens to the value of hybrids once the story gets out about about the costs of battery replacement and the the effect it has on resale value.

Talk about room! I remember the 1948 Chevy we had. If I was sitting on the back seat, and wanted to hang over the back of the front seat to say something to my dad, I had to stand up (which I could do in this thing), and take 3 steps forward to reach the back of the front seat. And, when I was sitting on the back seat, my feet didn't even come close to hitting the floor, and it wasn't because I was 5 years old, either.

Of course, the cars today, are really superior to cars of that era. But, there are two things the old cars had that I REALLY miss. Well, there are probably more than two, but two come immediately to mind. Interestingly, both have to do with climate control. One is the wing window, or "no draft" as we Michiganders called them. Very convenient, and you could defrost your windshield in seconds.

The second is the vents that were built into the interior side walls down near the legs. I assume the intake was in the wheel wells but I don't know that. There was a small handle, just under the dash board, on each side of the car, that operated a cable that opened and closed the vent door. It was variable so you could open it just enough to let in the right amount of air. And lemme tell you, when you opened it all the way, it was a hurricane. It really helped keep the non air-conditioned car comfortable on hot days, and it didn't use any gas to operate.

Whew, Peter, glad to hear you're not putting the dog in the roof box

I think Toyota is scheduled to roll-out a hybrid Highlander that fits your criteria. But bring money. Lots of it.

And yeah, Zarak, there is no way to "get it" about kids or their crap until you have one. Strollers, car seats, high chairs, etc. I remember being elated when my kids could finally haul some of their own stuff just to the car and back. I have the same Traveling Dog problem Peter mentioned. Me, Mrs. Tuttle, the two kids and Tillie the Wonder Dog somehow do not fit into a five passenger sedan.

I thought maybe a RAV4 would be the ticket, but it's just too small AND it doesn't get marvelous enough mileage to make up for it. Plus, of course, it's ugly as sin.

The battery in the Prius is warranted for 8 years, and has been tested upwards of 180,000 miles.

Here is a Road & Track Technical Correspondence letter from last year March:

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Bob, your straightforward question turned out to have a surprisingly complex answer. Toyota warranties the Prius battery pack for eight years, “but the expectation is it will last much longer than that.” How much longer no one is willing to speculate, so we’ll guestimate a 10-year lifespan from the nickel/metal-hydride unit.

Even more confusing to our Casio 10-key calculator is that the Prius battery pack is priced at $4000 by Toyota public relations, $3420 by our local dealer and is expected to cost only $1000 in eight years (Toyota’s estimate) due to greater economies of scale as more vehicles require battery replacement. While that may sound too good to be true, Toyota is insistent on this point. They also expect the batteries to get lighter and more efficient. What’s more, it’s forecast that reconditioned battery packs will be part of the picture. (You’d likely replace your conventional 10-year-old car’s engine with a rebuilt one, right?)

So, which is more financially sound, gasoline or battery power? At $1000 for the battery and a lifespan of eight years or longer, the battery clearly wins any contest of the calculators. At a worst case of $3500 for a new battery pack, installed, along with $1.65 per gallon of gasoline, we find the battery pack is worth 2121 gallons of gasoline. Our Road Test Summary rates the (first-generation) Prius at 40.3 mpg, which would yield 85,476 miles of driving. That would be a bit over 4 cents a mile for the battery, and a financial dead heat given 10,684 miles per year of driving in eight years. Adding even a little to battery life or subtracting from its cost makes the battery a winner; and that’s not to mention any change in the price of gasoline, which is only going to go up.

Installation costs are not an issue; the battery pack is easily accessible by removing the back seat, à la VW Beetles and Piper Cherokees.

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A quick google brings up some reading about the battery and costs....all positive, and nothing that I think I would worry about if I went that route.

Karak
Like you, some days I still can't believe what we now pack. Seven years ago I was kidless and a Jetta was plenty. Now I have 3 kids and a dog. Being young kids we need to travel with a stroller, kid carying backpack, booster seats or highchairs for eating, diapers or porta potty and the list seems to go on. We also like to go camping and fish'in so need fishing rods, sleeping bags, stove, water jug and the list goes on and on.

But even if we weren't into the camping thing, I think there are two things that have changed since our parents were hauling us around in sedans and the like. They had motherjesus big station wagons or sedans back then with lots of cargo and passenger space. Heck, I remember the Ford Country Squire station wagon (fake wood siding included) with jump seat for 4 people in the back and the land-yacht of a 4 door hardtop Chev Impala my parents owned. We could damn near get a Queen sized bed in the trunk. But then the oil crisis of the 70' came along and the vehicles shrunk. The other difference is the change in affluence and associated expectations of our generation versus the last one or two. We seem to "need" to bring more "essentials" than our parents did. It's unfortunate but as the wealth of our societies increase, so does the stuff we have to cart around. the materiale are more

Volvo XC70. Bingo...

Also kind of fun to note that Priuses are appreciating in value right now. People are selling them for $1000-3000 more than they paid, because the buyers don't want to wait the few months it takes to get the things. Go fig...

We did have a dog growing up, but she normally did not join us on trips. I have a dog now and he normally does, but without kids there is still plenty of room. Maybe I'll just try to not feel the need to bring so much stuff someday, but who knows...we'll see when I get there. Even if I don't think we need lots of stuff, the wife might have different ideas. Although if that's the case, the big car can be hers

Actually, it will probably have to be anyway unless she learns to drive stick. My car is stick and I plan on keeping it that way, which means that the long trip car becomes her car so we can both take turns driving. Of course, the past couple of days is the first time I have wished I didn't have stick. I developed turf toe, apparently from playing tennis on Sunday, and it hurts every time I put my foot on the clutch to shift (or even to walk, for that matter).

According to RL Polk, Prius'es are bringing an average of $422 over MSRP and Escape Hybrids are fetching $610 over ... I have a 70 year old curmudgeon uncle who loves Toyota ... and traded a Corolla in that he was getting 33.9 MPG overall, and is now Getting 47.8 MPG in his Prius.

He actually calculated that, based on his driving 12,000 miles per year, that he was using 354 gallons of gas anually, and will now use 251 gallons, saving $227 per year. He is griping that he could have replaced his Corolla with another loaded one for about $6000 less than the prius ... and the interest on the $6000 would total $240 per year.

It was pretty funny ... HE is a GROUCH

I hate to get political and stuff, but our country really needs to ween itself off foreign oil. Better gas mileage is step in the right direction. So maybe he isn't going to save a ton of money by getting the Prius, but he's certainly doing the country (not to mention the planet) a big favor.

I love my Audi, but my next car will be small and very efficient.

I just can't get myself upset about higher gas prices. I look at what other countries around the world are paying for gas and we are still pretty low.

Maybe if our gas prices get high enough, we'll finally get some decent public transportation and people that are willing to use it.

The price of gas isn't my concern either. It's the political noose around our necks because our nation is so dependent on oil.

...but North America did not learn from the previous lessons regarding oil shortages. The mindset was to make smaller cars (see Chrysler, survival in mid/late 1970's) and when it startd to smooth out - big gas guzzling, enviromently unfriendly vehicles became popular again.

A comedian (- names escapes me.. Gallgaher???) said, "If it were me, I'd find a way to drill through the earth and suck it out from under 'em!!!"

In reply to:

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suck it out from under 'em

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or, we could just go get it from our OWN land in alaska, but we might kill a bear or something... oops, might have to take this to the political thread!!

i been waiting for a reason to revive that thread!!!

bigjohn

Let's just... not. Although I'm just aching to reply to you, but let's not.

In reply to:

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Let's just... not. Although I'm just aching to reply to you, but let's not.

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ditto

nibble, nibble.....

bigjohn

Getting back to the car topic, I'd be interested in seeing the Road and Track numbers that show owning a hybrid is cheaper. Form all the numbers I've seen, owning a hybrid costs you way more. The upfront costs you pay for it will not get made up in savings at the pump, unless you drive it for about 10 years, and don't have to replace the battery or anything. Just getting a Civic, or a diesel Golf or something will save you way more money.
And dependance will slowly shift from crude oil to some other form of energy. I think estimates put the world's oil supply at about 40 to 60 years. As time goes by, prices will continue to go up, until more energy production methods are developed, and as those eventually become cheaper, everything will just kinda switch away from gas without anybody really knowing it. Or so we hope.

no matter what source of energy we use to power vehicles in the futurewe will be scumbbaged out of our money so we can drive them-if someone developed a car that got 200 mpg gas would probably soar up to 100 bucks a gallon-but if i had a car that would run on hot air----i could drive with my mother in law for ever