Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Something smells fishy around here…..

Or at least I hope it will. Had to get your attention.

I've wanted to get my wife a fish tank for awhile…. Based largely on the fact that she's been saying "I'd like a fish tank" for awhile…

Problem is, there really isn't ANY room that she spends much time in except the living room, and that's where the HT is. Anyone care to pass along any info regarding the cruelty of putting a tank in a room with an occasional booming sub? It just seems mean to put the tank in there and have the poor things cowering behind the little plastic diver or little ceramic castle.

Does bass effect bass? (read that one carefully!)

I had a small tank going for my kids that was about 15 or so feet away from the sub and I had to move it. When the sub got going the water would ripple and the fish would freak.

I didn't kill any but I know for a fact if I had left it as is, I would have.

Mark,

I do not think that normal fish (as opposed to abnormal, ha, ha) sense deep bass or "sound" as we know it. Aquatic mammals (dophin, whales, porpoises, seals) do sense vibration, even at great distances underwater.

Anecdotally, I can report that when I was a kid, I used to wear a mask and snorkel and watch as my Dad fished for smallmouth bass. He would clunk around in the boat (wood), making various thumps that I'd hear underwater, but the bass seemed unaffected by the bass sounds from the boat. They would go for the lure, oblivious to the sounds. Passing motorboats also didn't scare them. I could hear them coming--a high-pitched whining, from the outboard gearbox underwater.

So, does bass affect bass? Nope, not in my experience. But maybe you should consult a bass specialist.

Regards,

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But maybe you should consult a bass specialist.

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You are a bass specialist, aren't you? (gotta love English, no?)

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But maybe you should consult a bass specialist

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i just know how to catch 'em and cook 'em...

mesquite grilled subwoofer is awesome!!

bigjohn

I say let John catch you a big ol' largemouth, get it stuffed and hang that puppy on the wall. 'Heeeere's your bass, honey!'

As long as it doesn't turn and start singing that Talking Heads song, like that very odd wall plaque in the discount stores a few years ago

And I've got my biology lesson for the day. Gotta love this board.

"Anyone here a marine biologist?"

Imagine your Nemo in the Darla Tap scene, THUMP THUMP THUMP, now how would you like that

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And I've got my biology lesson for the day. Gotta love this board.

"Anyone here a marine biologist?"
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Does George Costanza qualify...

Season 4 available on DVD May 17th.

Leave it to Mark. Always starting something, that guy.

I don't know a lot about aquaria. Just enough to be dangerous to those freshwater fish awaiting their doom at the local PetCo.

But I did want to offer one other perspective. We have several tanks in our house, and I finally succeeded in getting all of them OUT of the HT room. While there are different filtration methods and mitigation measures you can take, there is no getting around the notion that moving that water around makes some noise. Having invested an alarming but undisclosed amount of time and money on HT, I became less willing to compromise the fidelity of that experience by sharing it with incessant gurgling, bubbling and the like. Many people find both the sight and sound soothing.

Bigger tanks are easier and less risky to care for. Likewise, they are likely to be somewhat less effected by the hi-fi due to greater mass of water and rock. FWIW, I had a 10 gallon acrylic hex tank with a couple of fancy goldfish sitting directly on top of a subwoofer for several years. They didn't seem to mind, and I don't think their lifespans were reduced.

Mothers' Day is coming.

. . . or maybe a bass master . . .nevermind

I think ya'll got it bass ackwards!

Mark
I keep a 40 gallon tank in my H/T room, and the fish just love the sound.
Seriously, I do keep some very sensitive fish (Discus) and loud volume doesnt seem to affect them "much".
Sometimes while playing music at insanely loud volumes, I notice the fish just kind of swim in place, not moving around much.

On the other hand, I can testify that my 15 year old turtle in the HT area does NOT appreciate my subwoofer... she's becoming more tolerant of it, but she's got a look she shoots over when she's tired of having her tank rattled.

Bren R.

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she's got a look she shoots over

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Hmmmm.... "shoots over" makes me think of a rapid head movement that I just can't associate with a turtle. If it sloooooowly turned it's head over a period of mybe 20~30 seconds, does that qualify as "shooting over" to a turtle?

BrenR,

Turtles have ears, right, or ear holes? Maybe there's an Axiom newsletter in all of this: "Audible frequency ranges of animals, birds, turtles." I'll give you credit in the footnotes.

I'm sure some PhD candidate has researched this at some point.

Regards,

...or even a government agency that is ENTIRELY funded by taxpayers!!!!

hahahahahuhuh wait i dont get it. lol

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Turtles have ears, right, or ear holes? Maybe there's an Axiom newsletter in all of this: "Audible frequency ranges of animals, birds, turtles." I'll give you credit in the footnotes.

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Sorry, seems like I'm a week behind in messages here. Damn playoffs! Turtles have "tympanic membranes" (well, "sliders" do)... she doesn't have an ear canal, she's got two "eardrums" right on the sides of her head.

Bren R.

Amazing the gymnastics "life" went through to get to(and sometimes surpass)"Us" in some areas. Huh?

I guess "imaging" would be a problem for your average turtle.-Then again, I can't spot a 2" snack from 3000 ft either.

oops, I meant to see like a bird, not like a turtle.

Alan,

For a more accurate, scientific bass-bass test, wouldn't it have been better to have used a "bass boat"?

Larry

Don't know about fish, but all these friggin plants I have sure like tunes. I took a four week trip to Europe and my house sitter didn't play the stereo, just watered the buggers as I asked her to. When I came home, they all looked about half dead. A week later, they had all perked back up again. Strangest thing......

And if you're wondering if I'm a bunny hugging plant lover, I'm not. The X got a new house and all the cash, I got the plants. But I'm not bitter....I kept my tools.

Finally a subject I know a fair bit about (as I’m a fish biologist). Here’s an explanation about how fish hear and I’ll end with sort of an answer to Mark’s question. I wasn’t going to bore you all with this the first time around, but now that this post has resurfaced I can’t help myself. So for those not biologically inclined, skip on down to the bottom or skip it altogether.

Although not that well understood, fish (true fish, not marine mammals like whales and dolphins) can hear, but not like you and I. The main “hearing” organs are the lateral line that runs down the side of their bodies and is porous and filled with water, the inner ear called the otolith (they have no middle or outer ear that is connected to the outer body like mammals) and in teleost (bony) fish a gas-filled swimbladder. The lateral line detects low-frequency (<100 Hz) particle motion in the water contacting the flanks of the fish and the otolith, located within the head of fish, is sensitive to frequencies of up to 1-3 kHz. The inner ear is thought to be the main sensory organ involved and is sensitive to vibration rather than sound pressure. The swimbladder of teleost fish (most aquarium fish are of this type) acts as transducer that converts sound pressure waves to vibrations that picked up by the otolith.

Sensitivity to noise and vibration differs among fish species and is largely related to the anatomy of the swimbladder and its proximity or connection to the inner ear. Those fish that don’t have swimbladders (e.g. elasmobranches like sharks and tune) or have poorly developed swim bladders (e.g. many benthic, or bottom dwelling, fish like flounder and sculpins) are least sensitive to sound. Amoung the more hearing sensitive teleost fish some have a gas duct connecting the swimbladder to the otolith (e.g. fish in the herring family) making them moderately sensitive to sound. Minnows and other fish in the cyprinid family (including goldfish) have a bony coupling called Weberian ossicles that connects the swimbladder to the inner ear. These fish are much more hearing-sensitive fish. There are therefore three broad groups of low-, medium- and high-sensitivity fish.
Auditory thresholds, or the minimal level of sounds that a fish can detect at a particular frequency 50% of the time have been measured for a variety of different species obtained in a number of laboratories. The graph below includes goldfish (Carassius), a high-sensitivity fish, Atlanitic salmon (Salmo salar) which hears very poorly and is considered a hearing 'generalist', cod (Gadus morhua) which is known to detect high frequency sounds to at least 38 kHz (although the data below doesn’t represent the ultrasonic detection capabilities of the species), a tuna (Euthynnus) is a tuna without a swimbladder and, like Salmo, is a hearing generalist and finally, a damselfish (Eupomacentrus) which is considered to be moderately sensitive to sound.



As you can see, goldfish, and possibly other aquarium species, has the lowest auditory threshold which for frequencies < 1 kHz is down around the 60 – 80 dB level. How much loud sounds from outside a fish tank maintain their dB level into the tank, I’m not sure. But I’d guess the dB’s don’t get dampened much by the time such sounds reach a fish. Sound travels 5 times faster in water and the glass tank walls and the water will reflect sound waves. One site I looked up said if “you tap the tank, stand or table holding a tank it will send very loud noises into the water, noises that could cause shock and stress to fish”. I guess Pixar got it right in that scene from Finding Nemo when Darla, the brace-mouthed girl, tapped on the fish tank. One site specializing in goldfish says “The tank should be kept where the fish will be spared from excessive noise or thumping(stereos, speakers, etc.).”.

So Mark, to make a long story short, if you are going to put an aquarium in your HT room it would seem fish such as sharks, tuna and salmon would be ok choices (depending on your preferred listening level) and choosing goldfish would be just plain cruel. Thought about the kitchen or bedroom?

Paul

Now THAT'S what I call an informative post. I can't believe you almost didn't post this, especially given its relevance!

I watched Finding Nemo 3 or 4 times this weekend. (My son has the stomach flu so we spent most of the weekend on the couch.) Pixar did a ton of research on this film. All the animators were 'forced' to get scuba certified as part of their research. I can imagine they also placed microphones into fish tanks and tapped on the glass to research that scene.

Well, if that isn't just the coolest, most informative post ever! I had no idea there was a marine biologist on the boards! Gentleman, a salute to the most thorough, informative answer ever to a question many would consider stupid!

OK, since I have an expert here:

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fish such as sharks, tuna and salmon would be ok choices {{SNIPPED}} Thought about the kitchen or bedroom?

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Along the lines of my original question, wouldn't putting a tuna in my kitchen to watch us eat lunch and dinner every day be just as cruel as U-571 would be for the Goldfish in the living room?

Seriously, thanks for a great response. You've saved countless little fish from a life of stress and myself countless hours getting them to take little tiny Xanaxs'!

You didn't know there were reseachers on the board? You should check out the profiles more often. It's astounding to see the wide range of folks on the forums, although admittedly it seems there are few scientists overall.

So the next logical question is this, is there a difference b/w salt water and freshwater species (difference in water density) such that anyone at home running a HT with either setup may be able to get away with having one or the other as a preference in order to save the 'hearing' of the fish?

For those still interested in what the heck an 'otolith' is (the fish ear bone in a sense, no pun intended), here's a micro picture from my personal archives a lovely Salvelinus namaycush, the great lake trout.



Incidentally, if you count the rings you can estimate the age of the fish just like a tree. For anyone considering tossing some lake trout into their home aquariums, we've clocked one of our samples at 55 years of age!!
I hope the HT components are well chosen b/c you would be in it for the long haul, unless of course the fish hit the dinner plate before it hit old age.

Paul
Thanks for the great post.
How would Discus (Symphysodum discus) and other South American Cichlids fair in a LOUD room?

I'm not sure. They almost certainly have swim bladders placing them in the moderate to high sensitive category for SPL detection level (like cod, damselfish or goldfish above). To narrow down their sensititity further would depend on how the badder is connected to the inner ear and that i don't know.

Not much help huh.

Nope turtles dont have ears I had one for 10 years, It was a red eared turtle....which makes you think they have ears. But they can sense frequency changes somehow...on another note -they are VERY quick.