Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions blown tweeter or just need breaking in?

Dear all,

I finally received my M22ti yesterday. The midrange is everything the critics described. I do have a problem though...

The high seems somewhat distorted. When I listen to modern/rock /alternative music, there is somewhat of a noise near the higher frequencies. I really doubt that the tweeters were already blown considering they're less than a few hours old, and I have not played them at anything above a moderate level.

To test this further, I played some of the classical music I have (mostly violin concertos) to test the high frequencies. However, the violin doesn't seem too distorted.

So... Could this just be the speakers still needing breaking in? or do I have defective/blown tweeters? I guess another possibility is that I'm not used to the distorted guitar sound that are present in those rock CDs?

I guess one of the questions is- how do you tell when the tweeters are blown?

jefft,

Since you do not detect the particular distortion with the classical music, I doubt that your tweeters are defective. Most likely, the modern/rock/alternative CDs you listened to are recorded "hot," with intentionally boosted mid-highs and highs. The M22's are highly accurate speakers, which means that they depict a bad or tweaked recording as such.

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Could this just be the speakers still needing breaking in? or do I have defective/blown tweeters? I guess another possibility is that I'm not used to the distorted guitar sound that are present in those rock CDs?

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The loudspeakers (or any other audio components) do not need a break-in -- their response does not detectably change over time. What could change or be "broken-in" is, if any, the psycho-auditory processing in our own brain, as you have eluded. Equipment break-in is a wide-spread myth among those "audiophile" folks, period.

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I guess one of the questions is- how do you tell when the tweeters are blown?

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In this case, I would first check, using a good pair of headphones, the CDs with which you felt distortion. If the recordings sound the same (still "distorted") on headphones, then you can acquit the Axioms.

Cheers!

My first thought is the same as sushi's. I would guess you're finally hearing all the horrible crap in "pop" recording due to finally owning an accurate pair of speakers. You can get a little resistor from Axiom that clips into the tweeter and drops the gain a bit, dulling the highs if you want. The fact that this doesn't appear to you in classical CD's which are usually better recordings due to the audience makes me think it's the other recordings that are the problem.

What equipment were you using prior to owning the M22ti's?

I'm having the same issues with M22's that arrived 2 weeks ago and rock music, just got off the phone with Joe@axiom and his sending 2 resistors to try out.

Little or no "toe-in" also aleviated some strain. This seems to be the biggest issue with an other wise great line of speakers and I wonder if the chief engineer Ian and team are considering toning/tuning down the highs on some models or if possible this can be done by request prior to shipping to accomodate those of us with sensitivities to "sharp" or "accurate" highs.

Impostor, I'd be curious to hear how you like (or don't like) the resistors once you've installed them. I installed resistors about a week ago on my M22's, and while I loved the M22's before, I do think they are a bit less bright now. Yes, some detail seems to be lost, but I don't think it really diminishes the speaker. I would have loved to have done some extensive listening with the resistors on, but my receiver just acted up, so I am out of commission until it is repaired.

Also, I think you raise an interesting point about the possibility of Axiom reducing the output of the tweeter at the production level or at the customer's request. This might be sacrilege for Axiom, but there is obviously some issue (albeit pretty minor) with the tweeter output due to the amount of people considering the resistors. Obviously, Axiom has sought to produce speakers with great clarity. The problem might be that since many of us don't have lots of options in our homes for acoustic treatments or placement of speakers, that the tweeter output is a bit too unforgiving. Just my .02 cents. But, considering how easy the resistor fix is, it's not big deal anyway.

imposter's and gem's posts reminded me of the olden days in which most hi-fi speakers had a built-in volume control(s) for the tweeter (and mid-range if three-way). I also remember that those thick-wired volume control pods tend to often deteriorate over time. Does any manufacturer still do this today in passive loudspeakers?

At any rate, this issue is the matter of speaker designer's philosophy. Unfortunately, no loudspeaker can be perfect for everybody, given the huge variations in room acoustic, personal preference, recording, and other factors. While many mid-fi (and indeed quite a few "hi-fi") speakers are designed to tame, or re-equalize, those "hot" pops records that are meant to be listened through an FM radio and far more common in the market than "acoustically flat" recordings, Axiom obviously considers that it is not a speaker designer's responsibility to tame such recordings. They think that what loudspeakers should do is just to get out what is fed in. The other day I had a chance to hear the Rockets a bit, which are highly raved in certain forums. Boy, are they laid-back!

Cheers!

It would be a shame to modify the highly acurate M22s with resistors. If you've ruled out the blown tweeter theory, then you might want to look toward the recording. You know the old saying, "junk in junk out". Not to say that your prefrences in music is junk, but that the engineering of the recording may be crap. I suspect that you may be now hearing all of the warts and blemishes of the recording. I have many recordings that I can't stand to listen to because they are so poorly recorded but they were quite bearable on the car radio. Speakers, no matter how good they are, should not have to compensate for "hot" recordings. The ones that do often sound very veiled and distant.

In reply to:

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imposter's and gem's posts reminded me of the olden days in which most hi-fi speakers had a built-in volume control(s) for the tweeter (and mid-range if three-way). I also remember that those thick-wired volume control pods tend to often deteriorate over time. Does any manufacturer still do this today in passive loudspeakers?

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About five years back, I bought a set of Infinity Studio Monitor series that did this. I don't believe I've seen it on any other speaker since, though.

Like sushi said, there are different philosophies to speaker design and Axiom has decided upon one that defines their character. I tend to agree with Axiom's design philosophy, personally, but it's a matter of opinion. It's also why I think people need to be more diligent in auditioning equipment. Different people will enjoy different things.

Personally, I wouldn't touch the speakers and would instead listen to them for a while and see if maybe my brain needed to just adjust to the new sounds it was hearing in the music, rather than loose detail in good performances. But it's your speaker, folks.

"This seems to be the biggest issue with an other wise great line of speakers"
I agree 100%
The best speakers do not try to reproduce every single sound on a recording. Great speakers try to convey the MUSIC. They allow the listener to enjoy the rhythm, pace, harmony and impact of the recording. They will not emphasize the crud on the recording. What does crud and distortion and hiss have to do with music?
We must deal with the reality that recordings and the electronic equipment we use to reproduce these recordings is not perfect. Good speakers will not show off these imperfections, they will allow the listener to glide past them without insulting the ears.

A speaker which doesn't reveal imperfections, but instead lets the listener "glide past them" by definition can't be "good". Tone controls and equalizers are meant to create off-setting inaccuracies in response to imperfections in recordings.

Of course JohnK. But reveal and emphasize are two different things. The Axioms emphasize. This is why almost everyone who hears them uses words like fatigue, bright, harsh etc. I am not putting the Axioms down...they do a lot more right than any other speakers in their price range. But with a slightly softer tweeter they would become more musical. And music after all is the bottom line.

I agree 200% , the monicker fits your remarks-music should be enjoyed, not necessarily scrutinized(particularly at the "mid-fi" level).

Since the kind folks at AXIOM did suggest the ohm resistors as a remedy for the "brightness" phenomenon, it appears they aknowledge it exists. Alan@axiom stated he used them in a post... M60 EAR FATIGUE, I believe. They also replied that Ian is apposed to tuning his speakers, it'll be interesting what improvements are made to future products.

In reply to Gem, I'll post thoughts after installation of the resistors, bummer about your gear.

On the subject of sound quality, though beit on an entirely different product-any thoughts on POWER CONDITIONERS?

They acknowledge that "it exists" in that they acknowledge people have sensitive ears. Why dumb down the speaker to appeal to the lowest common denominator? Why not make the best, most responsive speaker they possibly can?
I believe they have, and that's why I bought them.

"Why dumb down the speaker to appeal to the lowest common denominator?"

I'd hesitate to make a blanket statement like that. I am neither dumb, nor the lowest common denominator, but the Axioms were a tad bright for me, and the resistors have served a purpose. I absolutely loved my Axioms before using the resistor (just ask my wife), and wouldn't trade them for anything. However, I live in a NYC one bedroom apartment, with one possible location to put the speakers, hardwood floors, obviously no opportunity to acoustically treat my walls (b/c it's our only living space), etc. I don't think I have sensitive ears, but the speakers occasionally sounded bright. Yes, I know this was usually due to a poor recording or my room set-up, but there are lots of poor recordings or less than ideal room set-ups out there. I would never presume to tell Axiom how to build their speakers. But, those of us who may find the Axioms a bit bright (which has been mentioned in professional reviews as well) are not dumb, and it certainly doesn't mean I don't love the Axioms. And the resistors are a nice, easy compromise to keep the Axiom sound, with somewhat reduced highs.

Actually i disagree a bit here.
Although making the Axiom tweeter more 'laid back' would help with hot recordings, you would lose alot of clarity for good recordings. In regards to home theatre uses, i prefer to have as much clarity as possible for minute background sounds, dialogue, etc.
I would not want a 'musical' speaker for home theatre.

I put my axioms up against an older pair of technics speakers and the difference during a boys choir solo was amazing. The technics had a laid back tweeter which kept the upper frequencies from becoming bright or forward but the Axioms allowed me to hear echoes off the walls and i swear the shuffling of feet during the solo that simply were not present while using the technics speakers.
A friend of mine recently bought some Energy speakers with a Denon receiver. I gave him some advice on what to buy awhile ago. I know that he listens to ALOT of mp3s, techo dance and radio pop music so the Axioms are not a speaker that he would prefer...and i know it.
The Energy speakers have this more laid back upper end and their bass and midrange i find are more full, less revealing but musical. This is perfect for my friend since my guess is about 80% of his cds are overdone in the oven, that is to say recorded 'hot'. If he had bought Axiom speakers, i'm sure he would not have liked that forward and clear upper frequency response. He would have been one of those people who would have considered the Axiom sound as being 'harsh".
I personally appreciate the sound as accuracy, an amazing level of clarity for the price paid.

Your right, I intended to put "quotes" above "sensitivities", which by the way, I never realized I had my whole life listening to loud rock music, till now.

I hope AXIOM has'nt laid-off thier R&D team and are sitting on their laurels thinking speaker development has reached its pinnacle.

Its a pity ENERGY, infact all companies dont have such a wonderful forum like this, where not so smart people like myself can learn about technical subjects like LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR.

Wow Duffin, thanks for that info...Just think all these years of listening to J.M Reynauds, Dynaudios, Magnapans and Harbeths I was just fooling myself. Sure I've been tapping my size 12 boots and dancing around and head banging and gettin in the groove and basicly just having one hell of a good time. But all this time I was just listening to dumb downed speakers that only appeal to the lowest common denominator. But thanks to you and this thread after 25 years of buying audio I have seen the light. I will be replacing those speakers with the Axiom M60's and no dumb downed restitors for me...no sir. I want to be sure to hear everything. I don't care how painful it gets. I don't care if my dog howls and my ears bleed and I hate the sound with every fiber of my being. Sure it won't be any fun but who cares...I will be hearing everything after all. Thanks so much for the enlightenment.

Well I can see everyone has read what I said about dumbing down speakers (or, put another way, "making them less accurrate") and interpreted it as me saying that everyone is dumb. I'm a bit baffled at that connection.

But I do see, in re-reading my own post, how "appeal to lowest common denominator" how I wrote it can easily be misinterpreted as applying to people, when I was referring to quality of recordings (which is how this thread started).

So anyway, now that you hopefully understand I'm not flaming everyone here, let me try to clarify my point:

I am simply opposing the viewpoint that their exceptional clarity (to me, which may be "emphasised brightness" to some) is a flaw that needs to be remedied. I find it their strength. I hope they do too, or else they probably wouldn't be making these speakers this way.

If it were that serious of a flaw that doesn't work for someone, well then try the resistors or an alternative speaker solution, but don't call the speakers flawed.

No problem...I took your post wrong..my fault, sorry.

Yeah, ditto on the misunderstanding Duffin. No problem. And Chesseroo, I don't disagree with you that there is a loss of detail with the resistors. When I spoke to Joe at Axiom about using the resistors, he advised against it, for the main reason that the speakers would lose detail. Like I said before, I'm still not sure if I am going to leave the resistors on or not, I just need to test them out more with and without, once I get my receiver repaired. But either way, I still love the Axioms.

It's a pity we can't have a brightness control -- a potentiometer to let you change that resistance to taste. My old JBL monitors have both brightness and presence controls, the latter to adjust the midrange. I fiddle with them all the time. Very useful. If I had ideal electronics playing ideal sources in an ideal room with ideal speakers, I wouldn't need to do this ...

Buy an EQ.

heh-heh... apparently I missed some heated discussion while I was in-transit to Tokyo. But seriously, this kind of debate is much more meaningful and interesting than those on the great benefits of bi-wiring with Kimbers. LOL

Oh, regarding the EQ, I see that Pioneer's MCACC is very favorably received by owners and reviewers here in Japan, too. I will probably go for the 45TX as my first receiver. But it will be after I pick up an HT front projector here in the next few days, which will be my first real step towards the multi-channel system... I am excited!

By the way, I have found that most HT projectors are markedly less expensive here in Tokyo. But made-in-Japan receivers/amps are in general sold significantly cheaper in the US... very interesting!

Cheers!

Hey Sushi see how much these 16:9 projectors are in Tokyo
Both have great reviews and are the cheapest, best quality picture 1/4 HD format
Panasonic AE300 or also known as PT-L300U
Sanyo PLV-Z1

InFocus X1 4:3 mode only



Saturn
Time to pack away the board. Time to take out the mtn bike. Ride 365 days a year

I thought I would offer a little help to Jefft. These speakers do need a break-in period. Both for the drivers to loosen up a hair and for your ear/brain system to get used to their unique colorations. Metal drivers can take a long time to get use to...it took me six months before my first pair of axioms started to sound really good. Also, very detailed metal tweeters like those used by axiom do not do rock justice. Hard edged and powerful weighty rock will always come off sounding thin, harsh, bright and a little hollow on these speakers. Axioms are best for things like jazz or very well recorded softer styles. This is the price we must pay for these very detailed tweeters. This is why companies like Paradigm make three classes of loudspeakers....Performance series, Monitor series and the Studios. The Performance series has a very rolled off soft/hybrid dome tweeter and is geared toward rock and popular recordings. The Studios are designed for jazz and classical and have very detailed metal tweeters. The monitor series tries to be both of these. If Metallica is your thing you may want to look for a soft dome tweeter speaker.
However, there is one thing(besides an EQ) that can greatly change and improve the overall sound of metal drivers...and that is a SERIOUS subwoofer that will add the foundation and weight to music. The perceived balance of a bright or lean sounding speaker can be changed by a truly great deep and tight sub . My little M2i's become AWESOME when joined to my Athena Audition AS-P400 subwoofer (a highly recommended and perfect combination btw.) This great combination cost $655 American and will KO most speakers at twice this price.

TheTruth,
You are correct in some aspects and a bit off in some others. Speakers do not need break in to 'loosen up'. This has been audio myth for a long time, at least to those who read and believe in the imperical science.
The speed at which a driver vibrates per second is phenomenal. The mere second you put a sound through the speakers, the drivers are as loose as they are ever going to get.

However you are correct in that the brain requires time to adjust to a new sound. Typically this adjustment period is far less than 6 months. If i recall it is more in the range of hours. Only the individual preferences will determine whether that sound is 'better' or not.

It sounds to me like you enjoy a speaker with more bass (hence your preference for the Paradigm lineup and your comment about adding a sub for overall improvement).
I cannot say how Paradigm has decided to design their speakers but i highly doubt they are configuring their products specifically for certain ranges of music. No customer in their right mind will buy 3 sets of speakers to cover all the bases so to speak.
All metal tweeters are not the culprits for sounding bright, thin, tinny or harsh. More often it is the source music reproduced on a particular set of speakers that creates this perception.
As you state, you feel the Axioms would not be good for rock music. Well most mainstream rock music is not recorded very well. They are recorded for masses of teenagers who like to listen to such music on $200 Sony boomboxes and in cars. Alot of the upper frequencies are boosted as are the lower end frequencies. This is done so the music sounds 'better' on such low quality systems. I can remember trying to turn up the treble all the time while riding around in friend's car on friday nights trying to get an inch of better quality out of the music. He was always trying to turn up the bass knob.
When this 'hot' recorded music is played back on a decent system (Axiom based or otherwise), these overdone frequencies become very evident and hence, many recordings do not sound nearly as pleasant as they may have in the past on a lesser quality system.

For those who do prefer to listen to this type of music, there certainly are metal tweeters that are more laid back than others, including some in the Axioms lineup (M50 vs. M60 for example), however i have personally found that most soft domes or fabric tweeters do tend to roll off the upper frequencies giving a more suppressed upper end that makes the 'hot' recordings alot nicer on the ears.
I just recently bought a pair of Tannoy Revolution R1s which are a perfect example of this effect. They are nicely detailed and certainly no different in their playback of high notes and vocals, but they are alot more smoothed and almost filtered compared to my M60s (or from what i remember of the M22s when i auditioned them).
Would i buy Tannoys over Axioms based on this?
I'm not 100% sure. I do love the Axioms for home theare. The clarity is phenomenal, but the Tannoys would certainly be a bit easier on the ears if many of my music recordings were 'overdone in the oven'. Since many of my wifes' recordings are more non-mainstream jazz, blues, acoustic, etc., the M60s produce a detail than cannot be beat for its price range.

Hi Saturn,

In general, prices of home theater projectors are significantly less here in Tokyo, whereas, interestingly, data projectors (including the models that are quite popular for HT use) are often cheaper in the US.

The Sanyo Z1 costs here around US$1200 picked up, and the Panny AE300 about US$1600 -- both significantly cheaper than in the US. I have to reiterate many other people's opinions that these low-cost projectors are incredible in their picture quality, easily throwing up to 100" diagonal. As long as you have a decent control of ambient light in your room, these cheap projectors blow away those bulky RPTVs.

After doing much side-by-side auditioning in dedicated stores in the Akihabara district, I am leaning toward the Yamaha LPX-500, which is a tweaked version of Epson TW100H, a 720x1280 LCD model with the Faroudja chips. I can pick it up for about US$2800 here (in the US, it usually sells for well over $5000).

Cheers!

Sushi:

Thats definitely about $300-$500 US dollars cheaper for those HT projectors. YOu want to pick me up a Panny AE300.
Last time I was there was in 96 so its been a while. I'd imagine the plethora of shops of gadgets and stuff. Happy hunting and mention which model you ended up getting. I'm planning to get a budget HT projection before the end of the year. It would look great in my new Toronto LOFT which is slated to be done bout year end.

Saturn

Whoopee! I just picked up the Yamaha LPX-500, and briefly tested the unit in my hotel room (wanted to make sure that the unit is not DOA or there is not any dead pixels etc, before carrying it outside Japan). I believe I will be a very happy owner of the projector!

Now, my next agenda is to WOW my wife and kids with the projector, so that they will beg me to set up a 5.1 system! heh-heh...

Cheers!

You don't have a 5.1 setup? I thought everyone had at least that.

If you have to WOW them, you might want to start out with Monsters Inc. or Ice Age. That ought to do it. Monsters Inc. is the first movie my wife said, "this sounds pretty good". (which translates to..."these Axioms kick *** and I'm really glad you bought them!!)

jbz,
the start of that Ice Age movie is awesome. The sound of the glacier cracking just sweeps across every speaker i own.
Just superb.
And the little prehistoric squirrel is hilarious.

Sushi,

Congrats on the new projector! With video like that, a 5.1 system in a must. I'm sure you and your family will be very pleased with the projector. A good way to convince them that you need a 5.1 system would be to let them hear a proper setup.

Cheers,
Mike

P.S: I can't wait to see it (hint,hint)!

mwc and sushi,

Its too bad you lads are over in Dallas. I will be in Austin this November.
At great expense i could almost bring down some components and we'd have a real hoe-down.
I just picked up some Tannoy Revolution R1s that i would love to pair against the M22s or M2s. I tried with my M60s but it just wasn't apples and apples.

Everything mechanical (or in motion) must change. Loudspeaker drivers can not change the laws of physics. The suspension/spider system of a driver will change only after one hour of use from a freshly manufactured driver. This can be measured and was proven by JBL over 30 years ago.
The fact that Paradigm designs speakers for different classes of electronics and music taste comes to me strait from Paradigm themselves.

Plus it looks awesome on our Toshiba's...right?

Chesseroo,

Now that would be a hoot! Any time you feel froggy - just leap on over. With Sushi there, we would have a hoe-down with classical music. There wouldn't be much toe tappin' and boot scootin' but we could do a lot of "air baton" (LOL). Hey Sushi, they have hoe-downs in Japan don't they.

Austin is about a 3 1/2 hour drive from us. Will you be there on business?

P.S. Perhaps this could be the start of an anual "Axiom Hoe-Down".

Cheers,
Mike

TheTruth,
This discussion on break in has already been beaten to death.
PLease read this link:
old post on myth

As much as i would love to hoe-down in Dallas, i think the first annual Axiom owner party should be at the lake by which Ian and Amie reside. Excellent camping ground material. Plenty of fishing.
Don't Saturn car owners have some annaul picnic thing?

I will be in Ausitn most likely for about 5 days on business (science conference).

Thanks Jim; both Monsters Inc. and Ice Age have been noted as first movies for the show-off time.

Just FYI, chess, by November I will surely have a well-matured, complete installation. ;-) Mike, I doubt they really do hoedowns in Japan. At the very least, I am sure they won't with classical music. LOL

Now, I have to fly back to Dallas tomorrow (Saturday); hope my flight won't be shot down by one of North's missiles...

Cheers!

if you really want to show off the projector, try the Vertical Limit. I didn't like the movie all that much, but some of the shots of the mountain looked just amazing, even on my Wega 24", I'd love to see what they look like on a nice big HD display

The projector show-off has been a big success... Thanks!!!

Now, my next immediate step is to buy a real screen and a celing mount for the projector, and permanently install them (currently beaming onto the white drywall of our living room... LOL).

Once the "visual" part is all installed in place, I will order a receiver and the Axioms!

Boy, do I love this front projector! You simply cannot resist a 120"-diagonal image...

Cheers!

Hey SuShi;

I was out shopping with the ole man over the last 2 weeks for a receiver. As much praise for power and cost efficiency the Denon gives, do go out and look at the new NAD. I matched pricing and features between all the brands. What came out was a Denon (Sorry forgot the model) and a NAD 752. The NAD came out a winner. Although receivers are hard pressed to notice differences. On higher levels or loud music the NAD handled the long sustained loud levels with more gusto than the Denon in the same price. Maybe power handling on the NAD was a bit stronger. Sorry i do not have quantitative numbers just personal observation. It was also hard pressed to tell the difference between the NAD 752 $1200 CDN vs the Rotel RSX1055 $2000. Actually the NAD had more features. The NAD had better high level handling than some of the Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo Integra and Sony I saw in the $1200 price point. I was thorougly surprised with the new Sony ES line.

Saturn

Hey Gem,
It's been awhile, if your still interested, I tried both 2 and 4 ohm resistors about a week ago on M22's (Thanx Joe!). I'm staying with the 2 ohm pair, which did'nt change the over-all sound as much as the 4 ohm. As a matter of fact I could barely detect any difference w/2 ohms from going without, other then the absence of that piercing sharpness.

I definitley enjoy the sound more with the resistors(hope your enjoying yours by now?), its actually more balance sounding(to my ears), minus the sometimes overbearing tweeter output. This subtle change is the deciding factor in my keeping these speakers, since I can now listen to rock, like TOOLS-Lateralus at moderately higher levels w/DAHLQUIST PDQ 1500 sub.

I had originally ordered the M22's to audition the "AXIOM sound" in considering the M60/M80's. I'm now considering the ENERGY C-9's along with the 2 AXIOMs, I prefer the 2 channel for music aswell as replacing my 11 year old POLK RTA 8TL's...any thoughts or previous threads on M80 vs C-9 would help. Best regards all.

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear it worked out for you. I still have been without my receiver (hence, my Axioms, and my music, and movies, ugh!) for a couple of weeks now. So, I never really had an opportunity to judge the Axioms with the resistors. But, I have actually removed the resistors from my M22's, as I will be moving in 2 weeks, and I'd like to use them as intended in the new place, unless I find them bright. I will hold to the adage, "Don't screw with the M22", as instruced by Alan Lofft. Of course, I have the resistors if the speakers again prove bright. Oh, and I just received my QS8's for the new place, so I can't wait to add those to my system, replacing some old Kenwood surrounds. Regards.