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#95140 - 05/19/05 04:13 PM Speaker cable?
Sweetsounds Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 29
Loc: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Which one best speaker cable for M80ti tower?
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#95141 - 05/19/05 04:19 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
It really depends on how much distance you have from your receiver/amp? I used 12gauge for my entire system, I bought a 500' roll on Ebay. Many people use 14 or 16, it really depends on how far the cable run will be...?
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#95142 - 05/19/05 04:27 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
just as a general rule...

10ft and under, 16 gauge will work.
10ft-30ft, 14 gauge.
over 30ft, i would go with 12 gauge.

and dont bother with the monster cable hype.. some good basic speaker wire from lowe's or home depot will work perfectly.

bigjohn
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EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#95143 - 05/19/05 04:33 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Sweetsounds Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 29
Loc: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
I used pair of TARA LABS RSC Air 2 speaker cables 15ft now. Will be change this pair but no idea which one better?
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#95144 - 05/19/05 04:37 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

I used pair of TARA LABS RSC Air 2 speaker cables 15ft now. Will be change this pair but no idea which one better



is english a second language for you..? i ask, cause i aint sure exactly what you mean by this last post. we might be able to help you better if we could understand you.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#95145 - 05/19/05 04:49 PM Re: Speaker cable?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

I used pair of TARA LABS RSC Air 2 speaker cables 15ft now. Will be change this pair but no idea which one better?


He's currently using these cables (Tara Labs RSC Air 2) and wants a boutique cable name that will be "better" than these.

Joseph - most around here hold the belief that only gauge of cable matters. Use whatever you want... if you want to reuse the cables you have - by all means. If you want to buy new cables and want a brand suggestion - you'll just spark an argument here.

Bren R.

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#95146 - 05/19/05 04:49 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Sweetsounds Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 29
Loc: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Oh...I mean which speaker cable good for M80ti?
I'm no idea!
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#95147 - 05/19/05 05:09 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
copper is copper
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#95148 - 05/19/05 05:43 PM Re: Speaker cable?
shaned Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/12/05
Posts: 124
Loc: Halifax, Nova Scotia
You can buy really nice cable from Axiom, at a pretty good price. With my speakers, I bought 50ft. It is all 12 gauge. Probably overkill on the length, but if I want to move them around the room, I can.

Shane D

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#95149 - 05/19/05 06:20 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Sweetsounds Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 29
Loc: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
I will order one pair cable from Axiom ^.^
_________________________

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#95150 - 05/19/05 10:13 PM Re: Speaker cable?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Joseph, those Tara Labs cables are a ripoff so far as the price goes, but if you mean that you already own them, then there's no good reason to change. There's nothing wrong with the copper wire in them; the problem is what they charge for them and the deceptions/lies in the advertising.
_________________________
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#95151 - 05/19/05 10:46 PM Re: Speaker cable?
PaulM Offline
local

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 278
Loc: St. Albert, Alberta
Yikes $2600 USD for a pair of 10 footers. I'd keep um if i was you. If they're too short, sell em, buy axiom cables and spend the difference on whatever (maybe a sub).

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#95152 - 05/19/05 11:17 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Are you kidding me?

$2600 for a pair of cables? What are they made of, GOLD??

There ought to be a law....................

The Rat.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95153 - 05/19/05 11:48 PM Re: Speaker cable?
PaulM Offline
local

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 278
Loc: St. Albert, Alberta
Not kidding, here's the link .

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#95154 - 05/20/05 12:17 AM Re: Speaker cable?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Yes... Mr. Barnum - you have your hand up?

Bren R.

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#95155 - 05/20/05 12:19 AM Re: Speaker cable?
bray Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Colorado
I saw some on ebay for a mere $1600.
What, are they on CRACK?
_________________________
LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.

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#95156 - 05/20/05 12:34 AM Re: Speaker cable?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Note that in Paul's link the shameless "reviewer", in addition to the usual drivel about the "sound quality", comments that the $2,600 price was a "smaller bundle" than he expected.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#95157 - 05/20/05 01:06 AM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
That review was almost enough to make me agree with JohnK, but not quite. I think the Tara Labs Prism series interconnects are terrific values, very well made and good looking. I used them on my office HT system, gave them away when my assistant's husband put together their HT sytsem.

Tara Labs Prism 500


However, anyone who really wants a demonstration of cable products which make a big difference in sound quality can try these on a 30 day return basis:

Mapleshade Audio Clearview Double Golden Helix Speaker wire:


and some of their interconnects


I don't know these people, have nothing to do with their business, but LOVE their speaker wire and ICs.

Listen and let opinion follow experience.


Edited by 2x6spds (05/20/05 01:25 AM)
_________________________
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#95158 - 05/20/05 02:54 AM Re: Speaker cable?
Sweetsounds Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 29
Loc: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
^.^
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#95159 - 05/20/05 07:20 AM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Thanks for the link!!!!!

I just can't believe that anyone, with an ounce of technical ability, would post that sort of BS in a review. That is incredible!!

I guess that it confirms the old saying "A fool and his money are easily parted!"

$2600 just for cables, that's ABSOLUTELY incredible!!!!

The Rat.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95160 - 05/20/05 07:28 AM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
2X6: we have been through this "crap" before. I won't go much further because I don't want the boards to decompose into a "food fight." I appreciate the high standards here.

But, your opinion about speaker wire is absolutely electrically wrong! PERIOD!! But, you are entitled to your opinion. PEACE!! Enough said!

From someone who knows something about electrical engineering but not everything about electrical engineering.

The Rat.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95161 - 05/20/05 10:26 AM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Dude, just go to Home Depot, Lowes, or Menards, they have speaker wire in bulk for a great price, it is not rocket science as some think...

By the way I thought Monster Cable was overpriced, this other stuff is a joke.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#95162 - 05/20/05 11:59 AM Re: Speaker cable?
samandnoah Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 320
Loc: Austin, TX
I never get involved in these frays, so this is a first for me. But I gotta step in here. How do you expect someone to react when something like this gets written?

"But, your opinion about speaker wire is absolutely electrically wrong! PERIOD!! But, you are entitled to your opinion. PEACE!! Enough said! "

So on the one hand you're saying everyone's entitled to their opinion, which basically implies "live and let live." But then you end up really saying everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if it is wrong. That's not quite as judgment free as your "peace" implies. From personal experience I think that makes it hard not to be on the defensive.

Ratpack, I'm truly not picking on you (and apologize in advance if it seems like I am), I just don't want to see this degrade. Sometimes it's not what we say, but how we say it that matters, partciularly when it's written and not in person -- without all of the attendant visual clues. While I don't agree with everything 2x6 has to say, I do think he's been a valuable contributor to this forum.

So, has anyone done the comparison with the specific Mapleshade speaker cables 2x6 recommended? Rather than merely the entire copper is copper position (which I'm actually more in the camp of), can anyone say they've tried them and heard no difference? Was it a double blind test? Was it in the same environment that 2x6 is in? Maybe there are real situations where cables *do* make a difference.

Regards,
Rich

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#95163 - 05/20/05 12:06 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I agree with Rich, I've seen this pattern on a few other posts. We don't want this to turn into another AVSforum. I respect everyone's opinion, and never use my profession to undermine another Axiom family member.

Peace Out
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#95164 - 05/20/05 12:24 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

I respect everyone's opinion, and never use my profession to undermine another Axiom family member



me too... so shut-up... J/K..

agreed.. i dont like the posts that seem to get too personal. i have been guilty of it a few times myself, but i would like to think i try and make a serious effort to not let it get out of hand. i think its fair to say that we ALL feel passionate about our opinions.. but, we dont need to make others feel unworthy or that their opinion is wrong, just because its different than ours.

peace, love, and boobies fellas.. there are more important things in life!!

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#95165 - 05/20/05 12:33 PM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Hello fellas

Look, I try new stuff, some of it is OK, some of it blows my mind, some of it doesn't work out.

Now, anyone can build an awesome 2 channel system by throwing huge amounts of money into the project. What makes it interesting for me, is getting similar results at a huge discount.

I took a chance and bought Axiom speakers based on reviews I considered interesting. Worked out well for me!

Here's a list of some other things that have REALLY worked out for me:

1. Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT 5 wpc SET tube integrated amplifier. My actual cost after wheeling and dealing ... $250.

2. T Amp. $20.00, another $25 for the power supply.

3. Giant Thiel CS3.6 towers. Used and mint ... my cost about $1200.

4. Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CDP with upsampler, Siemens E288CC tube upgrade, power kord, etc. I think this thing sounds great.

5. Axiom M3s, M60s, M80s, QS8s, Michaura M55s and M66s.

6. Mapleshade Clearview speaker cables and interconnects.

7. Sony TA E9000ES processor.

8. Philips SACD1000

9. Toshiba SD9200

10.Dahlquist D!M 905 speakers - if you find a pair, grabbem.


This list is not exhaustive and does not include my personal tweaking projects.

Here's a list of some things that did not work out for me. (Your results and opinions may differ)

1. Onkyo TXDS 797 receiver. (worked OK as a processor if you bypass the amp section - same for the Sony)

2. Sony STRDB 1070 receiver.

3. Axiom M50s and Michaura M665s.

4. Anthem PVA 5 amplifier.


I trust my ears. I thought the big buck Anthem amp would be great - it was OK. I thought the Technics receiver would be junk in a 2 channel system, it was terrific. I thought the T Amp would sound like a transistor radio - with a few mods it is a WORLD CLASS AMP.

Bottom line - I try stuff and then make up my mind. Now, I haven't tried any Shakri stones or green magic marker on my CDs, but I do use Caig ProGold, I think Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix speaker wires are terrific and make a difference in sound quality (same for ICs), I like some tube amps and waking up next to super models. Your tastes may differ.

Try the speaker wire. Relax your preconceptions.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95166 - 05/20/05 12:51 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
I participate in this forum because I want your opinions.

Every opinion we give is personal because this is highly subjective matter. We trust our ears and eyes. Unfortunately now my ears and eyes are not what they were ten years ago. I know there is science behind some of it, but I get what I ask for - opinions. What I do with it is my concern.

On the other hand, a disputing opinion makes us want to jump in with both feet. If someone takes offense, I'm sorry, but all opinions count.

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#95167 - 05/20/05 01:41 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Folks: I started to let this go and move on, but I just can't!

There can be a major difference between opinion and technical fact. Opinions are NOT necessarily facts. More often than not, opinions are NOT fact! What I was trying to say was that he is entitled to his opinion, EVEN IF IT WAS WRONG, AND IT IS!!!! I am not intending to flame 2x6.

The "peace" was intended to sign off this issue.

From an electrical engineering standpoint, there is NO DIFFERENCE in audio transmission between good cable and those $2600 cables. Let's not get into what difference does .1 or .01 or .001 ohms makes in listening quality or other "claims" that the author made.

I strongly believe that one purpose of boards like this one is to dispell WRONG information to those that are seeking ground truth. The author of that speaker wire/ cable article was nothing more than a charlatan. Please review the definiton of charlatan very carefully. People who believe charlatans are fools!

This post may come across as very strong, but it REALLY disturbs me for a wrong opinion to parade around as fact.

Thank you for your time in reading this post.

Maybe we (I) should put this thread to bed and go on to something else.

The Rat.


_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95168 - 05/20/05 01:54 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bray Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Colorado
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
Dont carry this thread any further. I think this issue has been completely BEATEN TO DEATH!





Has anyone tried a good beer lately?
_________________________
LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.

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#95169 - 05/20/05 03:15 PM Re: Speaker cable?
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
It's wine season again. I went tasting in the Russian River wine region (CA) last weekend and returned with 8 bottles of red wine and a port -- and I only paid for two of the bottles. My mother-in-law likes us.
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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#95170 - 05/20/05 03:47 PM Re: Speaker cable?
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
There is still four bottles of Old Speckled Hen and 3 bottles of Mackesson stout sitting on my kitchen counter awaiting your return.
_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

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#95171 - 05/20/05 03:58 PM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
You really think you can taste the difference between one red wine and another? Please! Chemically, they are almost indistinguishable. Anyone who pays more than $2.00 for a nice Charles Shaw Shiraz is crazy, but hey, it's your money. If you conduct a double blind test, between a nice two buck Chuck and one of those crazy over-priced reds like a 1990 Chateau Margaux, I'm sure you won't taste any difference. I mean tannins are tannins, and phenols are ... well, you get it. I just feel it's my duty to dispel this crazy misinformation about there being a discernible difference between red wines.

If you trust your tongue why not trust your ears?


Edited by 2x6spds (05/20/05 04:00 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95172 - 05/20/05 04:05 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Jeez. Let it go.

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#95173 - 05/20/05 04:06 PM Re: Speaker cable?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Any good Cabs or Zins worth mentioning? I like full bodied wines.
_________________________


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#95174 - 05/20/05 04:41 PM Re: Speaker cable?
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I prefer full-bodied wines myself, which is why I stick to reds. If you can find a Zin called Giuseppi & Luisa (by Marinelli), grab it. It's one the best I've tasted, and at 17.5% alcohol, leaves you feeling mighty nice. Other wines of note are the Iron Horse Cab, and anything by Porter Creek.

For the first time, I also bought a bottle that I intend to cellar for over a year -- to be opened on child #2's 1st birthday. It's a Christopher Creek Petit Syrah.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#95175 - 05/20/05 04:48 PM Re: Speaker cable?
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
2x6, I really shouldn't even begin to tell you how ridiculous your statement was, even if it was meant in jest, which I'm not sure it was. Where did you hear that wines are chemically "almost indistinguishable? ... the same place you get your audio facts?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#95176 - 05/20/05 04:57 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Porter Creek, my great grand pappy started that company, he he

Leave the poor guy alone man, he doesn't have any taste buds
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#95177 - 05/20/05 05:37 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bray Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Colorado
If you get a chance try this one.
http://www.shopping.com/xPO-2002_Cakebread_Cabernet_Sauvignon_Napa_Valley

It is one of my favorites.
_________________________
LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.

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#95178 - 05/20/05 06:47 PM Re: Speaker cable?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
thanks guys. I'll have to look around for those. I’m a regular at one of the wine warehouses, they all know me by name and I usually walk out with a case of whatever they recommend. For the money, my favorite wineries are Silverado, Provenance, some Ridge zins, Stetzner, and the latest – a 2000 sterling Merlot. I’m saving a case of 97 Silver Oak for the 07 new year’s eve party.

Might be time for a red wine post……..

_________________________


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#95179 - 05/20/05 06:47 PM Re: Speaker cable?
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Cakebread is great. I went there last year and tried their wines. I think they were getting too many visitors, though, because now tastings are by appointment only.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#95180 - 05/20/05 07:21 PM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Well pmbuko

Good to see your sense of humor is as intact as your sense of hearing.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95181 - 05/20/05 07:38 PM Re: Speaker cable?
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I know humor when I see it. Or hear it, come to think of it.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#95182 - 05/20/05 09:56 PM Re: Speaker cable?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
As always, it should be kept in mind that the right to express an opinion doesn't include a right to be taken seriously. When an opinion based merely on casual listening flys in the face of well-established audio engineering principles it won't be taken seriously by those knowledgeable of those principles.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#95183 - 05/20/05 10:08 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
2x6: you got me, I give up. LOL!! I don't know much about wine but I enjoy a glass or two every once in a while.

I would enjoy sipping a glass or two with you. What do you recommend?

Remember, here in Alabama we don't have the CA variety or selection.

From someone who knows next to nothing about wine.

The Rat.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95184 - 05/20/05 10:24 PM Re: Speaker cable?
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
Oh yeah! All that you say may be true but once the wine bottles are broken in, all bets are off.
_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

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#95185 - 05/20/05 10:51 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
I'm afraid, my friend, that what you say is quite true.

LOL!

The Rat.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95186 - 05/20/05 11:43 PM Re: Speaker cable?
PaulM Offline
local

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 278
Loc: St. Albert, Alberta
Geez, I am just getting back to the board since my post last night. It looks like I threw a hand grenade into the room, shut the door and left. Everyone - I'm truly sorry about that.

Until a month or so ago I had no experience with zinfandels. Despite being almost exclusively a drinker of red wines. As luck would have it I was out for dinner with a colleague and he ordered a bottle of Beringer 1997 North Coast zinfandel. Wow, I was really impressed with it. Great complex taste and oh so smooth. I've had no luck finding it in the stores around here. I tried Beringers 1998 Cold lake zin and it was quite pleasant, but not nearly in the same class as the 1997 North Coast. I also tried Beringers Founders Estate versions, but they are pretty germane. And to think it was widely available a few years ago for a measly $5.

C'est la vie.
Paul

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#95187 - 05/21/05 01:08 AM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Paul M, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you only think you liked that zin. I'm afraid your opinion as to how that zin tasted is really worthless in the face of well established scientific principles. I mean, all naturally fermented wines consist of about 87.7% water and 11.1% alcohol. H2O and C6H12O6, 1% acid and .02% tannins ... oh, I love all that talk about wine with cherry and blackcurrant, liquorice and oak, brash finish, yadayada ... please.

And those guys are right about speaker wire. String is just as good.


Edited by 2x6spds (05/21/05 01:09 AM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95188 - 05/21/05 01:17 AM Re: Speaker cable?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
OK, here's the deal. Run several different wines through a gas chromatograph and/or mass spectrometer, and you will find some rather large differences. Run a similar battery of electrical tests on various speaker cables, and surprise, you WON'T SEE THOSE TYPES OF DIFFERENCES.

Now, your precious Mapleshade thinner-than-a-human-hair cable probably DOES make a difference. Because it's so thin, it's probably adding resistance, much like putting a resistor into ones M60s. So it rounds off the highs, and sounds oh-so-sweet. There, you're right. Happy now?
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#95189 - 05/21/05 09:01 AM Re: Speaker cable?
Seabear Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 365
Loc: Charlottesville, Virginia
If you like Zins look around for Saucelito Canyon.
All of their recent vintages are great.
135 year old vines, dry farmed, just a father and mother and son & wife making a few thousand cases a year.
And, for what they sell it for the folks from the big "R" zin producers (Ridge, Ravenswood, Raffanelli, Rosenblum, ect...) should hang their heads.

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#95190 - 05/21/05 09:43 AM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
LOL!!

That's a good one!

The Rat.
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95191 - 05/21/05 10:37 AM Re: Speaker cable?
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
That is by far THE dumbest analogy spouted from you in the history of these boards.
Have any other utterly useless thoughts to display?
I have a spray can in the garage. You can borrow it for use on the side of a rail car.

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"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#95192 - 05/21/05 11:51 AM Re: Speaker cable?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
would you guys stay on topic for fu*** sake!!!

I open this thread to hear about wine dammit.

That's it, I'm starting a wine post on the off topic board. I don't care to read all this friggin mud slinging anymore. I get enough of that crap at work.
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#95193 - 05/21/05 12:10 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
2x6 I think you need to start thinking outside the "Wine in the Box"
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
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#95194 - 05/21/05 12:14 PM Re: Speaker cable?
tigweld Offline
buff

Registered: 10/14/04
Posts: 42
To all who are stating that speaker wire is speaker wire, how many of you have actually listened to various wires? There are measurable parameters such as capacitance, resistance, and inductance that do differ from cable to cable that can alter sound. Also, dielectric materials, wire purity, and many other factors could be involved. When you look at a painting you form an opinion based on how your brain interprets it. Isn't sound just as complex? Is it possible that some people interpret subtle changes in sound as appreciable differeces while others don't really notice the difference? Just relax your balloon knots and maybe you will hear with an open mind.

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#95195 - 05/21/05 12:16 PM Re: Speaker cable?
winterpeg Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 88
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
"Chemically indistinguishable"

One chromosome separates man from ape!!!

Troy
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#95196 - 05/21/05 01:06 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
tig: do we really want to continue on with this?

In any normal length of speaker cable, where are you going to get the capacitance?

We are at audio frequencies, so where does the dialectric material (constant) come in?

Just believe it, good quality cable is good quality cable and let it alone!!!!!!! You are paying for the name on these $2600 cables, NOTHING ELSE!

Geeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Did we open a can of worms on this one, or what?

The Rat.
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95197 - 05/21/05 02:28 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

It always happens.
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Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#95198 - 05/21/05 03:14 PM Re: Speaker cable?
tigweld Offline
buff

Registered: 10/14/04
Posts: 42
rat,

If you read my post again I said these parameters can affect sound, meaning it is a possibility (open mind). Granted capacitance isn't as great of concern when talking about speaker wire as it is with interconnects. These are merely posibilities as to why cables sound different. You are right, good quality cable is good quality cable, but my point is it doesn't all sound the same. $2600 for a set of speaker cables is crazy in my opinion. You will hear what you want to. I suppose this goes both ways.

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#95199 - 05/21/05 03:59 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
tig: I GIVE UP!!!!

Believe what you want.

The Rat.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95200 - 05/21/05 08:08 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Rat, do you realize that on forums and emails that typing in CAPS, means that you are yelling? I wish you guys would agree to disagree on this issue, I like to keep an open mind and invite everyone's opinions, even yours

Peace Out
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#95201 - 05/21/05 10:43 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
sir: I sure do. That's why I put caps where I did!

Hey, I really am going to give up on this one. At least I think I am. What's that old saying that goes something like "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

I suppose that there are still people that think that the earth is flat?

Go Figure??

Have a great day.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95202 - 05/21/05 11:01 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
It's not?
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#95203 - 05/21/05 11:02 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
In reply to:

I suppose that there are still people that think that the earth is flat?




Now you're trying to tell me it's not


_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#95204 - 05/21/05 11:05 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Ya beat me to it
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Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#95205 - 05/21/05 11:45 PM Re: Speaker cable?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Rick, don't feel bad, some of my audiophile friends have reported to me that they've gone out and looked for themselves rather than believing some silly scientific theory. They say that they've found that the earth is indeed flat and urge me to try it and "Just trust your eyes".
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#95206 - 05/22/05 12:30 AM Re: Speaker cable?
thyname Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 552
Loc: Oakton, VA
Couldn't resist but post this: Probably the best improvement I had in my system is when I replaced my generic monster original speaker cable with a 10 g Signal Cable shotgun, biwire cable!! I am not sure if it was through biwiring (I don't think as much) or from a thicker cable. But I am 100% positive that I felt like something was lifted from in fron of the speakers. Now, I don't think that a $2600 speaker cable makes too much sense for somebody who buys a $900 pair of Axioms (including me), but I think it does for somebody who buys some 10k speakers, those who care, and probably can distinguish that 1% increase in quality. I do think that for our range of speaker quality, as well as other audio gear quality (in my case Rotel) we should definitely look beyond the range of $20 speaker cable. There are many cable companies out there, most of them overpriced, but I was able to find some that could offer same quality cable for less money. I can mention three: Signal cable, Cobalt Cable and Blue Jeans Cable. By the way, mine costed $165. Reasonable, I think!!
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#95207 - 05/22/05 12:42 AM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Actually there is about a 1.8% variance between Chimp DNA and human and certainly the morphological and mental differences between chimps and homo sapiens sapiens is enormous. I was being facetious, and thought about using the chimp/human DNA conformance as an example, but I thought that would really offend the knuckle walkers.

BTW, nice to hear from you Chess. I'm still laughing at your demonstration of graceless bad manners.

BTW, I still have one case remaining of 1990 and one of 1993 Chateau Margaux. On the other hand, two buck chuck is fine for dressing roasts.

The problem here is that those who know it all base their rigid opinions on the assumption that a cable's performance is reduceable to 3 electrical parameters: resistance, inductance, and capacitance. This is an idealization - a great over simplification.

Now Kcarlisle has already pointed out that cables do make a difference in sound quality. When you connect a speaker wire to a speaker, the speaker's impedance is in series with that of the speaker wire, therefore, speaker wire can actually modify the speaker's frequency response. So, setting aside his snotty concession, we see that even a reductionist agrees that speaker wire makes a difference in sound quality. But, it does not stop there.

Dick Olsher has done some thinking (and listening) on the subject:

In reply to:

"Put a gun to their head, and they will maintain till their dying breath that the RLC paradigm is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In the past ten years, a handful of investigators have shown that the RLC paradigm just doesn't go far enough, and that there are other factors that do indeed affect signal transmission. This is also true for other passive parts such as caps and resistors where a simplistic test-bench measurement oriented paradigm has failed to fully account for sonic differences. Turn a Meter Head loose with an Audio Precision System and have him try to differentiate between a mass-market receiver and a Mark Levinson, or for that matter, between a run of #16 awg zip cord and an equal length of high-end cable. It's like trying to judge fine wines on the basis of a chemical analysis. Such measurements are in general not predictive of human perceptions.

To paraphrase Rene Descartes, I hear, therefore I am. Meaning, that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. While it is possible to dissect a sound field with a variety of frequency and time domain measurements, these meter readings or waterfall plots in no way add up to reflect the emotional reaction I might experience. No wonder science has had such a hard time defining perceptual attributes. Take timbre, for example. The American National Standards Institute defines timbre as "that attribute of a tone by which a listener can judge that two sounds of the same loudness and pitch are dissimilar." Pretty vague if you ask me. The following layman's definition is no better: the perceivable difference between a clarinet middle C and a violin middle C is timbre. To quote Handel (Listening: An Introduction to the Perception of Auditory Events: MIT Press), "timbre is not reducible to an acoustical property that automatically yields a clarinet note or a violin note."
Timber has to be judged subjectively."




Anyway, among other things, what I find interesting is the reaction of folks who KNOW that cables make no difference to sound quality to the suggestion that folks simply listen! Would you not agree that the responses to the suggestion range from displaced behavior (let's talk about wine) to outright hostility?

Isn't it interesting that we have here a subject about which reasonable people cannot even begin a discussion much less concede to those who say they can hear a difference that the objectors will at least give it a listen?

I think it's interesting, and in the case of aggressive dull normals like Chess, funny.


Edited by 2x6spds (05/22/05 12:45 AM)
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#95208 - 05/22/05 12:53 AM Re: Speaker cable?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Just a minor detail (haven't finished reading your post) but my name has no s in it.
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#95209 - 05/22/05 01:51 AM Re: Speaker cable?
sssutherland Offline
local

Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 243
Loc: Ventura, CA
Thought I could stay away. . .as do many of us but I just can't.

In reply to

Now, I don't think that a $2600 speaker cable makes too much sense for somebody who buys a $900 pair of Axioms (including me), but I think it does for somebody who buys some 10k speakers

$10K speakers. . .$2600 cables. Come on. Open the speakers up and look inside at the cables. . . they didn't use $2600 cables inside. So if the cables really were worth that much, which in my humble opinion they are not, you are still running into the problem of the internal wiring. And what about the connects on the receiver and the speaker coils themselves, what about the wires in the receiver/amplifier. They are not $2600 wires. And why would somebody spend one quarter of the amount on speaker wires than they did on speakers. ANYBODY would agree that you could make far better sound quality improvements with $2600 investing the money on things that significantly improve the sound like speakers and amplifiers.

There are differences in the quality of speaker wires and interconnects. I remember how pissed I was when I finally broke down and spent some extra dough on some fancy interconnects. Only to find that one of them would only work intermittently. I had to jiggle the wire to get sound to come out. Not the receiver .. the expensive cable. Absolutely ridiculous. If you can't connect two wires to a plug and have a solid connection you have NO business making cables.

All this to say that a clean connection that works is the most important feature of a cable.

In the end, dollar for dollar, it is always going to be wiser to invest the money in better speakers and amplification than on interconnects. I believe this point to be unarguable. Cables do not make sound they just deliver the message. Thus they cannot improve sound only degrade it. Whether they degrade it a tiny bit or a teansy tiny bit just doesn't matter to me.
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#95210 - 05/22/05 02:16 AM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA


$85 for an 8' set. 30 day money back guaranty.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95211 - 05/22/05 03:32 AM Re: Speaker cable?
asher770 Offline
buff

Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 53
Aren't these cables made by the same guys who make little overpriced stands to keep the speaker cables of the floor?

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#95212 - 05/22/05 04:46 AM Re: Speaker cable?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Yes Arthur, these are yet another of their gifts to mankind. Considering the complex engineering that obviously went into the design, $12 each is like stealing, and certainly would prevent the sonic disasters which might occur if the cables fell to the floor.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#95213 - 05/22/05 07:29 AM Re: Speaker cable?
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
Don't think I would have those things around my house John, they look to much like these things...which probably wouldn't be a very good sight for folks making a visit.
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Rick
Our Room

smile

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#95214 - 05/22/05 08:01 AM Re: Speaker cable?
F107plus5 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 2034
Loc: Fla. Orig. Mich.
I just loved my 220 foot yacht-but then my neighbor bought a 230 footer!

I just loved my $125,000 sound system til my neighbor spent $126,000-now if I bought new $2600 speaker cables...Ooh..ooh...here are some cables for $3700...better yet!

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#95215 - 05/22/05 09:10 AM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
LOL!!!

You guys are an absolute hoot. This is funnier than reading the Sunday comics in the paper.

Keep it up, I'm enjoying this thread.

2X6: now it is time for your lucid response.

_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95216 - 05/22/05 09:47 AM Re: Speaker cable?
Thasp Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 338
Reviews like that makes me depressed that axiom links to them for reviews of five of their speakers.





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#95217 - 05/22/05 10:47 AM Re: Speaker cable?
PaulM Offline
local

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 278
Loc: St. Albert, Alberta
Yeah, I was quite surprised the review was from soundstage.com and makes we wonder about the credibility of the reviews. But I see they use a bunch of reviewers and many seem to specialize in specific areas of audio equipment. I expect, like us on this board, they as a group also have differences in opinion about what audio components affect, or doesn't affect, sound in which ways and where it is best to spend the audio buck.

Debate is healthy, personal attacks aren't.

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#95218 - 05/22/05 10:59 AM Re: Speaker cable?
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

In reply to:

Debate is healthy, personal attacks aren't.





So true,so true !!!
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#95219 - 05/22/05 01:56 PM Re: Speaker cable?
BeethovenRocks Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 27
Is it too late to pile on? I've been following the discussion with some amusement, but the last "big" post [re: timbre and Handel, from 2x6] is what brought me from lurking to contributing. I was trying not to pick sides, but dang, y'all made it hard to keep my mouth shut.

Handel did not have a spectrum analyzer, or he would have realized that timbre is not subjective, but instead a quality that is, today, easily tested (the ANSI definition is accurate, but incomplete). A violin and a clarinet are different because they produce different harmonics - not because of some mystery magic we can't define. The "emotional" impact is not what we were debating - it is surely not defined by science, but I wouldn't put it past 'em to try it.

And judging wines by their chemical composition is not even a little bit like detecting a DIFFERENCE between wines, which is what the "meterheads" are attempting to do with cable, or receivers, or what have you.

Is LCR the end-all, be-all of cable behavior? Perhaps not, but the "other factors" that "do affect signal transmission" - what are these? The skin effect, the current-bunching, the dielectric polarizing, these may (and do) take place - but they still just attenuate certain aspects of the signal by simple LCR principles.

"the speaker's impedance is in series with that of the speaker wire, therefore, speaker wire can actually modify the speaker's frequency response" The speaker's frequency response remains as it was. The signal reaching it may have changed.

As was already said here - the cable can only detract. It can't "sound brighter" or whatever - unless the source was "brighter" to begin with.

If the difference amounted to 1% or so, the number I keep seeing here, I'm certain some golden ears would be scoring 100% on the DB tests. 1% is huge in most musical instances.
Try playing 1% of the notes wrong in a Beethoven sonata and let me know who still thinks they don't hear it.

It's fair to say some people may hear differences day to day or minute to minute. In those instances, I throw this out for debate: Right now, my own ears are ringing - late night, loud band, etc. If you put your ear close to mine...will you hear it?

No? Why? Because the mystery of what goes on in my mind (and yours) is far - far - greater and untested and undefined than the "mystery" of what makes a good speaker cable. I'm willing to wager on any given day, the atmospheric pressure changing both the size of your house and the pressure in your nose will affect the sound more than the cables. And I'd bet again you could measure it.

You might even hear it.

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#95220 - 05/22/05 04:57 PM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Nice post, BR! You are clearly correct that speaker cable cannot add to the signal (unless it'[s picking up signals extraneous to the source signal). I also agree that barometric pressure and other environmental factors probably contribute more to the SQ (or detract from it) than interconnects or speaker wire. I also think that spending a lot of money on cable is unnecessary.

All that having been said, I really like the Mapleshade wires and ICs. JMO. Of course, I also like Axiom speakers (terrific value for the money) and the Sonic Impact T-Amp (outrageous value for the money) tube amps, persimmon woods, Titleist tour blades, balata 90 compression balls (if you can find any anymore) and manual transmissions (hence the user name).
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#95221 - 05/22/05 09:38 PM Re: Speaker cable?
hashts Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 164
Sorry to beat a dead horse but I almost fell over when I saw those cable lifts. After reading the description, I couldn't believe what I was reading. Are those guys really serious?

I wonder how many of those they sold...

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#95222 - 05/22/05 09:51 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Oh, go ahead and beat the dead horse!

This one seems to have more lives than Carter has little pills.

LOL!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95223 - 05/22/05 10:06 PM Re: Speaker cable?
BeethovenRocks Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 27
Heh heh...do ya think they can prove the cable lifts are NOT affecting my sound with the same "technology" that proved the carpet is?

After all...just because THEY can't hear the effect doesn't mean there isn't one, right?

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#95224 - 05/23/05 10:59 AM Re: Speaker cable?
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
<<This one seems to have more lives than Carter has little pills>>

You got me with that one!

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#95225 - 05/25/05 02:53 AM Re: Speaker cable?
DOUBTINGTHOMAS29 Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 164
I think if you have the money, spend it on whatever you want. I personally wouldn't pay $2600.00 for cables, but if you've got money to burn why not.

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#95226 - 05/25/05 12:24 PM Re: Speaker cable?
warfer21 Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/14/04
Posts: 139
Loc: T. Bay , ON
Maybe we can add cables to the craigsub "A/B double blind test"


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#95227 - 05/26/05 11:43 AM Re: Speaker cable?
audiofan Offline
local

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 203
I use Canare 4s11 for all of my speakers. Sounds great and not too expensive

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#95228 - 05/26/05 11:46 AM Re: Speaker cable?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
That's actually what I use for my mains. I just think it looks cool to have a huge honking cable going to my speakers. My wife thinks it's ugly...
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#95229 - 05/26/05 11:55 AM Re: Speaker cable?
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
On another forum there was quite a bit of talk about using monoblock amps. You could put the amp next to the speaker and use a very short speaker cable run. The longer coax runs pre to amp would not make much difference, if any.

Is this more smoke and mirrors?

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#95230 - 05/26/05 12:12 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
I'd say so, but I'll say anything. The signal moves at near lightspeed, a few feet won't make a difference, as long as the cable is of appropriate gauge.
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#95231 - 05/26/05 09:05 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Check out this link. It is a superb article on speaker wire, IMO.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/SpeakerCableFaceoff.htm

There are some other superb articles on audioholics about speaker wire. There are few interviews with some of the speaker wire charlatans that made me laugh until tears were streaming out of my eyes. The interviewer really tore their pants off. LOL!

_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95232 - 05/26/05 09:13 PM Re: Speaker cable?
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#95233 - 05/26/05 09:31 PM Re: Speaker cable?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Doug, for the distances typically used in home audio it really doesn't matter whether short interconnects and long speaker wires or the converse are used. Long interconnects might be more susceptible to picking up interference, long speaker wires with higher resistance would have higher power loss and might show frequency variations with swings in speaker impedance. In practice, shielded interconnects rarely have an interference problem in home use and thicker speaker wire compensates adequately for a longer run. The longer speaker wires might be cheaper than the longer interconnects, especially if using very short speaker wires had the disadvantage of needing separate amplifiers. Overall, another thing not to worry about in the real world.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#95234 - 05/26/05 11:15 PM Re: Speaker cable?
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
The long run from the den to the sunroom (zone 3) would be better preout to zone amp than speaker wire. The signal either gets there or not and is then amped.

Across the room. Run speaker wire.

Got it!

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#95235 - 05/27/05 09:23 PM Re: Speaker cable?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Hey Wid, if you keep it up, the Rat may figure out how to use the [url] command in his links
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#95236 - 05/27/05 11:26 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
quack: LOL!!

Why should I when he will do it for me??? Isn't that great?

Have a GREAT weekend!!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95237 - 05/28/05 01:06 AM Re: Speaker cable?
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
We such a helpful group. Honery, but helpful.

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#95238 - 05/28/05 09:50 AM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Yes, bug, this is a GREAT group. I wouldn't call it "honery," I call US realistic or scientific!!!

LOL!!

Have a GREAT Holiday Weekend!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95239 - 05/28/05 09:57 AM Re: Speaker cable?
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
In reply to:

I call US realistic or scientific!!!




Whoa...for some strange reason I'm visualizing some very weird looking A/V contraptions, white coats and all. Scary!

_________________________
Rick
Our Room

smile

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#95240 - 05/28/05 12:04 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Well, not really.

Take another look at my avatar.

LOL!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95241 - 05/28/05 12:13 PM Re: Speaker cable?
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
2x6,
Even considering your typical level of ignorance i find your reply to winterpeg in this thread more humourous than normal.
Are you that stupid to really think we are the same person?
You are such an ass. No wonder so few ppl take your purple sky and pink elephant opinions as anything but a joke.
Maybe you should tweak your car with one of those light bulb tubes and see if it will make the engine sound sweeter. Five bucks says just because you do it yourself that it will.
Then as your car fails to function whatsover, you can stand there like an idiot saying "but i trusted my ears".


_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#95242 - 05/28/05 03:42 PM Re: Speaker cable?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

I call US realistic or scientific!!!


I'll pay for the use of the word pragmatic.

Bren R.

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#95243 - 05/28/05 06:16 PM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Always nice to hear from you Chess. The combination of your distemper and flatulated, overblown self esteem make you a uniquely entertaining participant in these discussions. Keep up the good work!

In reply to:

2x6,
Even considering your typical level of ignorance i find your reply to winterpeg in this thread more humourous than normal.
Are you that stupid to really think we are the same person?
You are such an ass. No wonder so few ppl take your purple sky and pink elephant opinions as anything but a joke.
Maybe you should tweak your car with one of those light bulb tubes and see if it will make the engine sound sweeter. Five bucks says just because you do it yourself that it will.
Then as your car fails to function whatsover, you can stand there like an idiot saying "but i trusted my ears".





Edited by 2x6spds (05/28/05 06:18 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95244 - 05/28/05 06:20 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
How much will you pay?

LOL!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95245 - 05/29/05 10:56 AM Re: Speaker cable?
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
That's it?
You're losing your touch 2x6.
Keep trying though.
Someday you might understand how things really work. I know it's tough for you.
Until then, here's a helpful hint, the light bulbs screw in clockwise.

_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#95246 - 05/29/05 01:39 PM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
When I picked up a pair of Thiel CS 3.6 tower speakers, the seller threw in a pair of spade terminated AudioQuest Midnight 2 Hyperlitz speaker cables. These things are really thick, but well reviewed. I haven't set up the Thiels yet, but I'll report as to whether the AudioQuests sound better than the AR 14 gauge Oxygen Free copper speaker cables (big spool from Best Buy) I used in my previous set up.


_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95247 - 05/29/05 01:56 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Now, of course, you are going to use a double blind test so that there is NO "fudging," aren't you?

LOL!!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#95248 - 05/29/05 02:22 PM Re: Speaker cable?
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Actually, I was going to use the glass of Chateau Margaux and some good music test. I'll keep refilling and switching back and forth until I forget which cable is up.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#95249 - 05/29/05 04:10 PM Re: Speaker cable?
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
2X6: sounds like a great plan!

Enjoy!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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