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#98855 - 07/01/05 11:37 AM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5278
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
I'm starting to think this is really simple :

- the "BBC dip" (slight recession around 3 KHz) is popular because it takes the edge off many recordings and takes out a lot of sibilance

- many speakers implement the "BBC dip" either by design or by accident, including the M3 / M40 / M50 line. The M2 / M22 / M60 / M80 line does not have that dip

- we can argue about woofers & tweeters being the problem until the cows come home -- the "sibilance band" seems to be around the 3Khz range, which is where both woofer and tweeter are active

- any speaker with a bump up in its response in that frequency range is going to tend to emphasize ssssibilance a bit... although we need to be careful because apparently microphone placement in the anechoic chamber can produce an apparent bump in that range

- of all the user controls the audio industry should be giving us, the ability to tailor the 3khz range seems to be one of the most important... (after a BFD of course ) but I have yet to see such a thing. Tweeter controls which give us a step up or down at the crossover frequency have been around for years but I imagine they disappeared because they were controlling the wrong thing

- only a guess, but I bet we will find that a "bright room" is brightest in the same frequency range, ie that a speaker with a bit of a dip in the 3khz range would sound a lot better in an overly bright room. This is probably why the dip is so common in speakers today...

Just a thought.

Oh, and if you want to throw in another variable and REALLY get a headache, have a quick read of the following link. Better yet, do a search on "BBC Dip" and read everything you find... this is still a hotly debated topic after 30 years.

http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/VCheating.html


Edited by bridgman (07/01/05 11:50 AM)

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#98856 - 07/01/05 12:38 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
F107plus5 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 2034
Loc: Fla. Orig. Mich.
I find, to my ears, that my M50s do a fine job on bass with music without a sub. For movies the sub IS a requirement.

I may have another area giving me an "advantage": The fact that I use an M3 as center. The M3 has a bass "hump" of about 3db or so and by raising the bass in my receiver(centered on 50hz)I am raising the crossover point of my M50s up, as well as those frequencies coresponding with the bass hump that I'm already used to with the M3s! In other words; the M50s DO NOT have a bass hump, while the M3s DO, but by raising the bass in my receiver, I am more closely approximating the sound of the M3. And THAT, to ME, is a Good Thing!!

I'm also not sure, that if a person was absolutely secure and comfortable and happy with a speaker with 8" polypropyline woofers and a soft dome tweeter; that they would ever likely find the quantum jump to smaller aluminum woofers and titanium tweets a good trip!

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#98857 - 07/01/05 02:22 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10829
Loc: Central NH
Whether or not a speaker sounds as though the bass is sufficient is also largely dependant on the room.

You can sit 10' in front of a pair of speakers in a small or "normal" room and hear much more bass than sitting 10' in front of the identical speakers in a much larger room. The mids and highs, of course, are much less effected.

Another variable as to why some people might be describing a speaker as sounding different than another is hearing it!
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#98858 - 07/01/05 02:42 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4787
Loc: western canada
A reduction in dB in this range does not make a recording less sibilant. It only makes the range more quiet thus providing the illusion that the sibilance has been decreased. The ssss of sibilance remains in the recording now overshadowed by more prominent SPL from the surrounding frequencies.

I would say it is more an issue of the recording mic used or similar peripherals. You cannot remove sibilance by reducing dB of a frequency unless of course every person spoke their S at exactly the same frequency and that particular frequency was completely muted to 0dB. Highly unlikely.
By reducing the volume in a sound range controlled by something like a treble knob, you are also reducing more than just the S sound otherwise.

The M40 has sibilance just like the M60 from what i've heard with mdrew's recordings he provided. My big Tannoys also demonstrate the sibilance of the recordings and Tannoys are known for their British sound (that BBC dip so to speak). The M40s were no less sibilant than the M60s but the M60s dedicated midrange certainly makes a sharp noise alot more prominent to one's ears.


Edited by chesseroo (07/01/05 02:45 PM)
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#98859 - 07/01/05 02:49 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5278
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
>>A reduction in dB in this range does not make a recording less sibilant. It only makes the range more quiet thus providing the illusion that the sibilance has been decreased. The ssss of sibilance remains in the recording now overshadowed by more prominent SPL from the surrounding frequencies.

Agree 100%. I was trying to say that some speakers provide the illusion of more or less sibilance by virtue of frequency response variations in the "few KHz" region, not that the sibilance goes away.

Personally I don't buy into this "one speaker is more sibilant than another" but I do believe that a speaker with a bump in that range is going to show more of the recording's inherant sibilance (probably a function of miking as you say) than another speaker with a response dip in the same range.

Agree that 3 KHz is not a "magic frequency" for sibilance, just that the 2-4 KHz range is more of an issue than (say) the 5-10 KHz range, the 10-20 KHz range or the 1-2 KHz range.

Below a certain frequency you get spluttering not sibilance

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#98860 - 07/01/05 04:40 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
Twebbz Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 61
Don't go there, F107.
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#98861 - 07/01/05 05:50 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
In reply to:

Whether or not a speaker sounds as though the bass is sufficient is also largely dependant on the room.




Absolutely Mark! I get more than enough bass out of my M40s. I even got too much out of my bookshelves. My room is a small cubicle, though. Go figure. I sit about 6 feet away. I almost don't need headphones!

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"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#98862 - 07/01/05 07:45 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
F107plus5 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 2034
Loc: Fla. Orig. Mich.
Agreed, Mark!

That's no surprize! I have what can best be considered as an acoustically challenged listening room!(16.5x27)

A stone fireplace to one side about 20 degrees off-axes and a wide open area to the other. I had great imaging in my old house with my M3s, but the M3s fell apart when we moved in here. I also had good bass in the old house with the M3s, but not so here either, although, yes, I AM sitting about three feet farther back!! Plus I have to put my M50s in CABINETS!! So yup, the lack of bass(and imaging)is much more a product of the room than the speakers! In fact, if I haden't had experience with the M3s in the old house first, I'd have been more than just a little disapointed with them, and probably would't have updated to M50s!



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#98863 - 07/01/05 08:57 PM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3875
Loc: Up yonder
Chess,

Now that you’ve had a chance to listen to the recordings, is your opinion that they are poorly mastered…..in general?

The ones I sent you are in my opinion, not mastered poorly, but yet still have the sibilant traits on some tracks. But on other tracks, they sounded pretty darn good to me.

That’s the argument that I was looking to get another opinion on, and why I sent them to you. Argument being, that just because a track has sibilance present, doesn’t necessarily mean that it was poorly mastered. And, that not all hard rock/metal/alt recordings should be lumped into a category and labeled as “inferior” from a recording perspective.

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#98864 - 07/02/05 07:01 AM Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
Twebbz Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 61
So it comes around again...Many current CDs of most musical genre have certain high frequencies accented to make them sound more exciting and clear on the low budget equipment that most people have thus making it an issue when using fine audio equipment. That does not mean that the recordings are poor. For example, I find the recordings of Celine Dion among the finest of POP music but her voice is still sibilant. When I use the CD in my car or patio boombox it's OK.


Edited by Twebbz (07/02/05 07:23 AM)
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