Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Denon 2805 and monoblocks?

I have a 2805 and am very happy with the performance. I hear a lot of talk about Outlaw mono 200's. I guess my question is what value will I add to my system if I start adding some mono's for the center or mains or surrounds? I guess I'm trying to understand if my Denon is a 7.1 100 watts per channel, would it be worth it, would I notice any difference in performance?

Randy

60's 150 350 4-Qs8's
2805
Sanyo Z2 WXGA projector
Panasonic S97S HDMI DVD Player
Samsung HD Tuner
JVC Tape Deck
A bunch of misc. stuff

The upgrade bug has bitten you as well Randy? Since no one has replied yet I thought I would to give you some company.

I guess the only way you would know would be to order a pair and take advantage of the 30 day return policy. I think monos would be a waste for the rears since they do not get that much action during movie watching as you already know. I would stay with the front three for any type of improvements.

Any dealers nearby that would be willing to loan an amp for the weekend for you to try out? That might save you a few bucks shipping the outlaw monos back if you don't notice any difference with a loaner amp.

If it doesn't make a difference in your system then an ep500 probably will.

I would wait until you move the system to the new room in the basement before adding any more power. That will (a) let you know how the extra power will behave down there within a 30 day period, and (b) let you make a better judgement re: where to spend $$ once you get a chance to really beat up on the system in its final home.

Your Denon ratings are probably FTC which means that not all seven channels can be driven simultaneously. We had a long discussion on another board about the difference in FTC and RMS specifications.

Bottom line is that you probably will notice NO difference if your Denon is performing up to specification.

Your 60s are rated at 93 dB SPL at 1 watt, one meter away. Say you are listening 10 feet (about 3 meters) away. That would take about 10 watts for 93 dB. As I have posted elsewhere, that's too loud for me. I don't listen to anything above 87-88 dB. Maybe you like it louder?

Anyhow, you "should" have plenty of power!!!

As is always the case, Randy, except in the unlikely circumstance that more power was needed than your 2805 was capable of, there should be no difference. The first 1-50 watts on a 100 watt amp are just as good as those on a 200 watter. Unused headroom is simply that; unused.

I love mine. I hear a difference. Use the 30 day to try for yourself.

Bernard, possibly whatever discussion you're referring to got a bit tangled-up in terminology, but the FTC rating uses the RMS average power measurement standard. RMS(root mean square)is just the mathematical process(square the values, add them and take their simple average, take the square root of that average)used to define average power, it has nothing to do with the number of channels being driven. As we discussed before, under the FTC reg unless unless more is specified by the manufacturer, it's understood that the rating means 2 channels driven simultaneously at the full rated power for at least 5 continuous minutes. Some manufacturers choose to use an all channels driven FTC rating, but in all cases the rating of an amp sold or advertised in the U.S. has to satisfy the FTC reg.

It is my understanding that the Denon's ratings are 100wpc full bandwidth rated into 8ohms 20hz - 20khz <.05 THD. Now it is true that many manufacturers mislead consumers, and are not full badwidth rated, only using one frequency, for ex., 1khz. I believe the Denons are pretty true to their specs.

I know I know.....Michael, John, and others, your right....I just need to concentrate on getting everything setup and see what happens. I took yesterday off, to try to get all the painting completed, so I can move onto trim and carpeting, fun fun fun

I can't wait to share pictures and update the website, it is looking really nice.

I purchased a NAD T773 receiver and use it to run my surrounds and a pair of speakers in the living room(zone 2)What I did with my center and mains was purchase a used MCA3 Anthem amp. It produces stronger front channels and really makes the M80's sound sweet in stereo.
I did contemplate the Outlaw mono blocks as well, But I am even happier with my decision to purchase the 3 channel Anthem.

Troy

John: I guess that I wasn't clear. I am aware of the mathematical definition of RMS. What I was intending to say was that the FTC does NOT require that all channels be measured simultaneously, as opposed, to an RMS rating of ALL channels tested simultaneously. And, the Denon has the FTC spec, as required.

I still have to wonder how realistic that FTC spec is? Just can't seem to find any of the information that the manufacturers used to convince the FTC that ALL simultaneously was not a realistic requirement.

We have a lot of folks reporting improvements when they go to separate or additional amplifiers. Of course, we are not talking about double blind tests. But, if they really are noticing a difference, I would have to "assume" that their current gear is somehow power limiting. If true, it would imply that the FTC ratings are not sufficient.

The curious side of me wonders what is ground truth????

Sir: what you are "hinting" at is an integrated power spectrum rating. That is probably a little too complicated for many to understand.

Just consider all that don't understand that speaker wire is fully characterized by its RLC parameters!!

No, I don't want to go there, again.

LOL!!

I don’t know if that assumption is correct or not. I can’t honestly say if the improvements I had are from the amp or the processor sending the signal to the amp. I’m guessing a little bit of both. I think once you get to a certain point in current supply, adding more does you no good. However, the quality of that power will definitely make a difference. As will how the source signal is sent to the amp.

At any rate, I most definately notices a difference. Enough to where a blindfold wasn't required.

Even my wife from the other room asked. "What's different about the stereo?"

I asked. "What do you mean?"

"Sounds better." Came the reply.

Then I told her I spent another $900.

I wish you hadn't said that. Now we're all gonna have to get bigger amps...

In reply to:

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But, if they really are noticing a difference, I would have to "assume" that their current gear is somehow power limiting. If true, it would imply that the FTC ratings are not sufficient.

The curious side of me wonders what is ground truth????

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Rat, you are looking for an answer when a disparity in the information does not exist because of the fundamental difference in the type of information that is being paired. You cannot try to correlate such subjective reports on sound improvement while attempting to associate the answer with power and FTC spec requirements. It won't work.
What will end up happening is that you will continue to scratch your head figuring out why people report a sonic difference b/w SS amps if there appears to be no reasoning as associated with FTC regulations/restrictions/requirements.
There is a huge leap of faith that the original assumption the subjective reports are 100% true and without flaw.
Audio is a religion to many. Sometimes they don't want a search for answers as to why and the reality is, there may not be any. The cliche "to each his own" could apply thousands of times over for every subjective report you read and believe without doubt.

Chess: what you say is only somewhat correct. I started out my question with an "IF!" I fully realize that most of the comments are NOT objective. That does not, however, mean that they are necessarily wrong. We need more information at this point in time to ascetain "ground truth."

I TOTALLY agree with your statement that audio is a religion to some. I just can not believe the number of chalatans out there and the beliefs of some are as wrong as you can technically get.

Perhaps I should restate my question.

Do some of the current receivers power limit or show increased distortion because they are not rated for full power in all channels simultaneously?

I think that is really what I am trying to ask (and it is nice and simple), and it gets away from all the quandry of the FTC specification. I would like to upgrade my receiver to separates, but I don't find anything on the market, currently, that I would purchase. I do like the new Denon 4806.

Bernard, it would appear that the answer to your question would be no, except if the unit in question was actually called upon to operate at full power in all channels simultaneously for a period longer than it was capable of doing so(not necessarily the five minutes that's required if an all channels driven rating under the FTC reg was given by the manufacturer). Since this situation can be duplicated in the testing lab, but isn't a realistic scenario in home use, it doesn't appear to be something which should be a matter of great concern.

Rat,

I really do think the forum needs your review of the 4806.