Well, it is abundantly clear that the time has come to create a code of conduct for the message boards. I am amazed that we need to do so, but it is clear from recent postings that common sense is not in the ruling house lately.
To this end, I would very much appreciate suggestions and feedback from everyone who calls Axiom home. Let's see if we can develop a code that will make us all happy and comfortable here once again, and that will allow new visitors to feel as welcome as they are.
Your help is appreciated.
Uh-Oh...hope I didn't say anything I wasn't supposed to.
How about no cussing or knocking people for the equipment they own?
I've noticed the main problem seems to be from the people who sign up, and their first post is a......... "drop and run"..OR.....a "bomb throw", etc. (just to stir the pot, OR being NASTY)
Other than a "regular" or two, who once in a while "run amok".....thing's seem to be GREAT!
(IMHO)
LT
i think thats a nice idea, but a code of conduct only works for those that choose to adhere to it. we are always gonna get flamers and trolls in here that arent going to abide by any rules or guidelines. unless there is a moderator that is willing to knock people off the board, it will continue. those guys really dont bother me. but they can be hateful and bothersome to others, and it is bad for those of us who consider the people on here our friends.
i applaude what ever efforts you do try and make. but whatever happens, i will still be here, and i am sure my friends will be to..
bigjohn
Make bigjohn moderator.
I'm almost serious.
the regulars mob every post till its to their liking. until these saps are dealt with there will be no freedom of speech here.
be careful everyone i dont think axiom supports the 1st amendment. maybe these regulars are on the axiom payroll
One of the things I like most about this forum is the fact that we police ourselves pretty well. This community has an excellent reputation, largely because respect is (for the most part) a key element around here.
I'm the king of inappropriate behavior and off-color humor. There's very little I can think of that genuinely offends me. Foul language only rubs me the wrong way IN THIS FORUM if it's used to attack someone else. There's no need to be abusive - we're talking about speakers, for Christ's sake.
Changing the background color of the screen is just childish. If that was the extent of it, I wouldn't think twice about it. But to me, that shows there's someone who's demonstrating an active interest in manipulating the source code of these pages. Where I work, that's an automatic escalation from prank to security concern. Everyone else (GeneticDrift included) chime in if you think I'm unnecessarily paranoid.
I can't think of any thing topic-wise that should be off limits. Yeah, it's an audio forum, and for the most part we stay on topic. But some of the most interesting discussions arise from conversations that have nothing to do with HT or speakers.
I ain't going nowhere...
Anyway, I think a code of conduct is a good idea, given the amount of flamewars we've had around here today.
Perhaps threads should get locked when they get ugly? I don't want to add a burden to your job, Amie, and that could actually cut down on the friendly, free atmosphere of the boards. Wouldn't want to turn them into The Sp.... oh, nevermind...
Perhaps the best thing we can do is ignore the trolls; don't feed 'em, they get bored. Usually...
...............Make that their first, or SECOND post.
LT
Dude, I'm amazed that you have had the nerve to respond to this thread. Your conduct is the entire reason that Amie has had to open up the topic. Your conduct is juvenile and offensive. Beyond what I have seen from the likes of you, this forum is the most gracious and inviting that I have seen. In addition, Axiom has been more than gracious in allowing us the latitude that we enjoy. Go ahead and try your antics over at AVS and see how long they tolerate it.
However much I want to sink to your level and tell you to buzz off, I would rather you just attempt to control your impulse to insult and offend. I have seen a few thoughtful posts that you have made, which gives me hope that there is something more than the bad side that you have displayed for all to see.
Amie,
Like everyone else, I'm not sure that you can really maintain a solid rule of conduct unles someone is willing to police the threads. Given that, I think that you might simply add a catch-all that allows you as moderator to simply delete threads, posts, and/or accounts at will when members have exercised what is considered lewd, profane, or excessively inflammatory conduct. In doing so, you allow yourself to step in only when things get ugly and then leave things be otherwise.
...just a thought.
Best of luck, because a code is only valid if the people adhere to it. Locking threads will spawn new threads, locking users will generate new id's being created.
One thing I do not agree with is selling products openly in the forums. Axiom is trying to run a business. That having been said, this board benefits them as well. We are a service avenue for them, and I would say cut down on calls/emails requesting information. I would be nice to undersand what Axiom thinks of us as well.
This is cyberspace - for better or worse. As was stated, it up to each person to conduct themselves accordingly. Don't get drawn into wars, becareful and eloquent when responding, value opinions, learn from another members experiences, accept that tastes, personal situations, values and hearing differ.
I will agree that the threads get aimed towards the prevailing ideas, and seemingly all go OT. The gathering point is the attraction to Axiom products - whether you own them, or not. In general I think the forum is a good place that has a few bad moments.
As the longest standing Axiom owner and board member, I think this board has a quality membership, with a few differing points of view. These views are not always related in a positive manner, but such is life!!!
Obscenity. Ban anyone that uses it (by IP address, not name). That incident the other day where someone created a username similar to, but with an obscene twist, to another member's name was totally unacceptable. (side note: DEFINE obscenity as you see it before hand. For example "These speakers kick ass" is NOT obscene. "If you like these things, you are an ass$#@%" IS. State the rules up front.
Stating that you have a personal preferrence with or against another brand is acceptable. Personally attacking others for not having the same issues or preferences is way out of line considering that 99% of all things audio is a matter of personal taste. LT61 is correct. There are some who are repeat offenders in the "attacking others for their opinions" category. Read the forums long enough, and you can see the same folks doing it over and over again. 2x6spds was a victim, minirock was a victim, geneticdrift was a victim (and a culprit at the same time!). If people have a personal issue with each other, they should take it to PMs or email. I don't want to read that crud. All I want to do is read about the hobby (and the wondeful speakers) that I enjoy so much.
Clearly define "selling" as it applies here. I understand that you are trying to sell new, waranteed equipment, and no one wants to mess that up for you. But "I'm looking for a set of used M22s, PM me if you have any available" should be OK. Posting "I'm selling my M22s for $50" would not be OK since it obviously devalues your product. In most cases, I would imagine that the buyers would be back to complete their systems (surrounds, centers, subs) by buying the remainder from you anyway. Allow folks to get in contact with each other, but do not allow actual transaction details to be posted in public. Most of the time, the people selling are only doing so in order to get a different set of Axioms.
Provide a "report this post" button so that we can alert you to the problem posts without waiting for you to just happen to spot them. We're sure ya'll are busy making speakers, and we certainly don't want you to take time away from doing what you do best to monitor a bunch of goofs like us. Let us help you out.
In reply to:
regulars mob every post till its to their liking
that is incorrect.. the regulars defend the products that they like. and they have NO problems when opposing views are expressed with tact and intelligence. when you(or your alter egos) just jump in and say, "axioms suck, [insert speaker brand] are better, then that shows a lack of respect that people are gonna react to.
In reply to:
until these saps are dealt with there will be no freedom of speech here
wrong again.. there is plenty freedom of speech around here. as long as its not in a hateful, insulting tone. like dmn23 says, its speakers man.. i dont see why it has to get ugly.
In reply to:
maybe these regulars are on the axiom payroll
ha, yes.. thats not the first time that has been said. i actually almost thought the same thing when i first started coming here. but, its just not true. these are regualr people that have a passion for HT, and wish to share and acquire knowledge in this format. were not losers, or audio geeks, or whatever terms you had used to describe us. we enjoy talking HT, and by-god, pretty much anything else. its just that mean-spirited attitude that you have at times, that turns people off.
we are all friends here. now, if thats 'weird' or 'geeky', then fine, i am a 'weird geek'. this is a computer dude, you aint gonna hurt my feelings... but, it just aint right on your part, to make judgements and point fingers at guys that you dont even know, nor have you taken the time to try to get to know.
so, if you wanna be cool, and talk HT with us(or beer, or movies, or football, or politics, or kids), then by all means , please do. but dont be the black sheep man. i have a fair level of discomfort in my everyday life.. i dont need it on here too...
bigjohn
I want to thank Axiom for the resources and for the freedom we have all enjoyed here.
While I agree with Ken to a certain degree (that ignoring trolls can be an effective strategy), it is not a behaviour that comes naturally to me. I pledge to try harder to know which battles are worth fighting.
One of my mentors long ago (a college History professor) instilled in me the truism that "silence implies consent". The premise harkens back to historic unwillingness of people to actively defend themselves and others outside their self-identified group against oppression and tyranny, but it applies also to smaller moments in our daily lives.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we become argumentative about audio content and the like. I'm talking about objectionable behaviour. When you stop calling people out or racism or rudeness or other manners in which they do not treat others with dignity and respect, then you give tacit approval to those actions.
As much as I'd like to think that a code of conduct would solve the problem, there are always going to be people who have not yet embraced the joy that comes from using their lives to make the world a better place. I believe it remains my personal responsibility to demonstrate inclusive values, and to hold others accountable for actions that are hurtful or divisive.
I've made friends here. I appreciate the opportunity to deepen those friendships and develop new and rich relationships.
Point being, I'm not sure that a code of conduct will actually change behaviour, although it certainly may give Axiom additional justification for punitive action. It seems like we have enough veteran technical people here that similar instruments from other public web environments could be gathered as a starting place.
In reply to:
Wouldn't want to turn them into The Sp.... oh, nevermind...
Easy there Ken, that dog bites.
Michael A wrote:
In reply to:
Provide a "report this post" button so that we can alert you
I want to write a bit on this topic, but
really need to get some lunch first! I
did want to mention though that there is already an icon in the lower left of each post that allows you to notify the moderator. I believe it's the one furthest to the right, but it has a mouseover effect to verify that.
I hadn't noticed those icons till fairly recently so I thought others may have missed them as well.
I'm new to this forum, and I think everyone knows what's right and wrong on these boards. This is a great place to learn, and because you have a few bad apples in the bunch, I think a code would be fine.
What "Michael A" proposed I think is a good start to simply giving us all better security from people who have nothing better to do than to annoy other people. Having a button to report inappropriate comments is great, closing those accounts by the moderator is good, and limiting access by IP address would be another great procedure.
In all, I think there's a lot of intelligent people here that enjoy the interaction on a myriad of topics. Lets keep that freedom open to everyone and anyone who wants to participate in a socially acceptable setting, but install a couple of safety gates to ensure everybody has a good time too!!
Amie, I agree with Code of Conduct guidelines and the points already made should be considered and gathering input from the members is laudable. However, I'd also suggest that a little benchmarking might yield better results. Most forums I've signed into have some for forum conduct guidelines that must be agreed to up front. Here is
one example . Items 5, 6, 12 or 17 might be something to consider.
The point of the exercise is to allow the moderator to apply good judgment to dealing with bad behavior. The devil is in the details, but guidelines like these would allow that to occur.
I notice that unfortunate incidents have seemingly increased as the membership has grown (almost doubled in the last year). Part of the appeal is the latitude allowed here in conjunction with the positive nature of the community (with a few exceptions). I especially enjoy the freely offered and supported alternatives to Axiom products - subwoofers would be an example. I believe this type of information exchange is healthy and informative. Differring opinions should be encouraged, but in a professional manner.
What must be dealt with, using the technology available is unacceptable behavior. I understand the limitations of technology, but there are some things that can be used to excise problems in this environment.
Anyhow - that's my $0.02 worth.
One more thing...........before this thread gets too complex, OR fades away, could you expound on what "things" YOU don't like, or approve of, (besides the obvious) here on the forum.
I see some people are incorrigible, but a further explanation MAY help the rest of us from making any "inadvertent transgressions"
LT
Guys, if you'll look at the bottom of each post, you'll see "Post Extras:" with 4 icons following. Hover your cursor over each icon, and you'll find the last one is "Notify Moderator."
Good points, Ray!
I'm surprised that anyone sees MiniRock, or GeneticDrift and all his incarnations, as victims of anything but their own behavior. I've formed some very good friendships with people I've met here and when I see them maligned and insulted, I, like Tom, feel that the absence of rebuttal is tantamount to consent.
There becomes a real problem with where to draw the line any time you undertake to add any sort of censorship.
If the problem is the "tweaking" of the board BG color and such, simply turn HTML off in the preferences for UBBThreads - it's the safest way to run a message board anyway. Playing around with BODY tags is just annoying, using HTML to load ActiveX controls can be a great way of spreading more malicious content - UBBCode can still be used for all the oft-used HTML tags (image display, etc).
If it's postings that are more your concern (and I don't come around here much at all anymore - not sure what's going on) then it becomes tough to determine where that line is, and it will be different for each person (for me, I could do without the misogynist posts for instance).
Bren R.
I think the opinions stating a code of conduct is only as good as the people who adhere to it are correct. However, having one would make it easier for a moderator to justifiably ban trolls and delete threads. I have checked the FAQ and don't see it as an option, but wonder if it's possible to setup some sort of ignore for specific users. That way every time I see someone being a troll I can just /ban or /ignore all their posts.
I like this forum a lot. Most folks are nice and helpful with only the occasional hissy fit (probably due to too much sugar or forgetting our meds). But, lately we have had some rather nasty threads and personal attacks. I’d really rather not see this forum locked down. The openness is part of it’s charm. Maybe we regular members can make an extra effort to disregard and not respond to those who chose to troll and not take throw away comments or opinions so personally. And if someone does attack you, let them. It’s just some shmoe on a message board you don’t know or care about. The only way to get rid of trolls is to not feed them. Rising to their bait is like wrestling a pig. You end up covered in mud and only the pig is happy.
james r
Well, I wanted to postpone writing until I could fill my stomach and my head with Important Thoughts. While I was gone, everybody else pretty much said what I wanted to say! And they said it better than I could have.
I'll add just one thought that hasn't really been discussed:
Far be it for me to speak for Ian and Amie, but let me offer a point that they may be hesitant to bring up. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, so….
This is NOT a public forum. Many people confuse the fact that this forum resides on the internet with thinking that free speech is a "given" here. This forum is fully underwritten by a private, for-profit company. This important point brings up two considerations. One, which HAS been mentioned, is how incredibly generous the folks at Axiom are both in providing this forum at all and, even more remarkable, allow us to write of and even recommend other brands of speakers besides their own. I have been a member of many, many different forums over the last ten years and can tell you that's unusual!
Point two, which really has NOT been discussed yet, is how a "bad apple" can, in a very real way effect the bottom line of a company like Axiom. Put things in a different context: If you owned a coffee shop that offered seating on the sidewalk, what would you do if every day a customer sat out front, talking loudly, swearing, and making other customers uncomfortable… maybe so much that they don't want to come in and order a coffee? What if you owned a storefront, and everyday some kid came along and spray-painted graffiti on the front of your business?
This is how I liken recent occurrences here.
I personally think that this is a great forum; I feel like I'm part of a little family here and have even given up other forums to feed my Axiom BBS habit! There's familiar faces, sometimes predictable responses (a GOOD thing!) from those with opposing viewpoints and a little teasing. It's comfortable. That's my personal feeling.
The business side of me says that this forum is a great sales tool for Axiom. How many of us can attribute part of our "Axiom decision" to these forums and the people that fill them? Many, I'm sure.
So, back to that customer at the café or the kid with the spray can. I know what I would do if someone were threatening my reputation, my livelihood and my friends.
But what can be done on an internet forum? Is an IP address a realistic, workable method of blocking access? What about a more stringent method of registering? Not to impede people initially, but to have control over their access to the forum if things get out of hand?
Unfortunately, this is not an area where I have any expertise. Anyone have a technology solution?
Nicely put, Mark. Your words made me remember a post I started a long time ago. I wrote in Word, because I wanted time to think about what I was saying, before I shot my mouth (eeerrrr, fingers off). Before I could post it things settled down, and I never did post it. I'm going to do so now.
I thought about editing it, because there are references to things that are in the past. But, I decided to leave it as it is, so you can see that it was done quite awhile ago. So, I present it for your thoughts, and with apologies to 2x6.
Well this is a fine kettle of fish. Guys, we’ve lost sight of the goal around here, and it’s time to step back for a little self examination. Imagine how this thread looks and sounds to an anonymous surfer who has come here to learn about Axiom speakers. Were I that person, I’d be outa here in a second. Like it or not, we represent Axiom, and we should never lose sight of that.
2x6, you’ve endured a lot of “shots” you shouldn’t have had to endure. Unfortunately, that’s made you, not altogether unreasonably, quick to reach for your gun, resulting in your handing out your share of unnecessary “shots.” Let’s just for the sake of argument, assume Alan is correct that tube amps “color’ the sound. So what? If you like that coloration, you like it. You don’t need to justify that preference to anybody. Like and dislike are completely separate from right and wrong. So Alan can be “right” that tube amps “color” the sound, and you can be “right” to like that coloration. I’ve never heard a tube amp (actually, at my age I probably have, but I just don’t remember it), and would like to very much.
It is generally accepted that Citizen Kane is the best movie ever made. I’ve never liked it. The two positions are NOT mutually exclusive. It CAN be the best movie ever made, and I can STILL dislike it.
So, lets all allow 2x6 to like the sound of tube amps without trying to make him feel a fool for doing so. His liking them doesn’t make our liking SS amps wrong. I’m glad he’s here to inform us, and others, about them. His presence adds to the credibility of this forum. And 2x6, put a strap on that holster. It just might slow you down and keep you from shooting an innocent bystander, like Peter (OK. Not so innocent, but a bystander none the less).
A word about language. Let’s take the word f***. Now, I’m familiar with that word. In fact, it would take most of you younger guys 10 years of saying it every second to match the number of times I’ve said it. If you’d come around for a Browns or Indians game, you’d hear me still using it at just about that rate, usually with the word “mother” explosively placed in front of it.
You younger people have grown up in an environment where you feel you have the right to speak as you please. But, what about others’ rights to NOT hear what you’re saying? Others do have rights too, you know. We used to call it consideration for others. That concept seems to have gone down the tubes today, along with a lot of other good values. The problem is, when that language crops up here, it is usually to punctuate a personal insult such as “get your head out of you’re a$$. First, try to skip the personal insult. Secondly, at least have the good taste to disguise the word as above. We’ll all get the point.
Finally, the human race never ceases to amaze me. We have 98% of things in common, and yet we chose to scourge each other over the 2% we don’t. No wonder I’m a misanthrope. Let’s try to allow others to think and feel differently than we do. They’re being right doesn’t mean we’re wrong.
Don’t misunderstand. I’m not suggesting that we all whip out our guitars and start singing "Kumbaya," or "It’s a small world after all." I love the freedom that the folks at Axiom allow us here. But freedom isn’t license. So I humbly suggest that when the steam starts coming out of your ears, and your fingers are menacingly poised over the keyboard, you take just a moment to remember where you are, and what the goal is here. Then remember that strangers are watching and listening. And finally, remember that you represent Axiom.
I apologize if it sounds like I’m standing on high, loftily (sorry Alan) handing down condescending words of wisdom. I’m more guilty of some of these transgressions than many here, less so than others. So, if you’ll try, I’ll try.
OK. Take your best shots.
All,
Most of you have noticed by now that I post rarely...
I try to help only when I feel qualified or have information that may assist someone...be it on topic or off topic.
I rarely take a major stand primarily because I don't feel that I should have to.
The prospect of a code of conduct (as has been mentioned) cuts both ways...but the primary point is that it is only valid as those willing to adhere to it.
I have sat back and watched the trolls come in and ravage our forum...
I have seen usually logical members lose their cool and in essence, (in this case) the troll has been able to reproduce by forcing (or enabling) someone to stoop to their level and so the carnage ensues.
I have seen people sign on with the intent of maliciously "stirring the pot" to get their jollies.
I have seen well meaning members attempt to mediate (most times to no avail) in hopes of regaining some semblance of civility to the forum.
I guess what I am trying to say is this:
My dearly departed Mother (within the last two years) tried to instill in myself and my four siblings as well as the numbers of foster children cared for, this one simple idiom:
"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything"
As simplistic as this may sound, it is valid for this discussion.
Sometimes it is as simple as biting your tongue and keeping your mouth (or keyboard in this case) closed.
This applies to all who have been considered trolls as well as those who unintentionally feed these trolls...even by trying to break things up.
We all are human...
We all have a passion for audio...in some it is more declared than others...
We all have (more often than not) differing opinions about a myriad of topics.
Bottom line: Think before you type.
If you feel incensed about a topic, sleep on it and revisit it tomorrow...
Remember:
It is only an Internet discussion group...
Your life does not depend on your opinion or anyone else's being in the forefront.
A troll not fed usually dies of boredom.
I do not write this to offend anyone and pray I have not...if so you have my sincerest apologies.
It is what it is.
WhatFurrer
I just find it sad that Axiom has to even think of doing anything. I believe they have done a fine job of setting up this forum for all to use and I enjoy reading the banter. I for one don't take offence to anything any one says on this board nor do I take it as truth, even with proof. Until I can assertain what is right or wrong , good or bad for myself, all input is just that, input and more information for me to decipher as to what I think about said subject. These are just words dealing with audio equipment,for the most part, a very subjective topic and differences will be numerous. Just look at the thread of favorite movies.
I realize the problem is in attacking others on the forum. A couple of rebuttles and the thread could be shut down or removed and life goes on and hopefully the combatants realize their errors and walk away.
I believe most people know when things are going wrong and try to negate the damage. I have read many other forums and the etiquette here is top notch. I have seen other forums where members are removed or discouraged from mentioning other products, now that IS censorship.
Ian & Aimee do as you feel you need to do to protect your product. As Mark said this is YOUR forum.
I leave you guys unattened for a few weeks and now look.
Must be very proud of yourselves
BTW, i liked it better when the forum opened up to parent instead of blank.
Ajax...
I am now certain that I chose the wrong word, but I can't seem to think of one more suitable right now. I am not implying that they are not responsible for the things that they got involved with, and I did not mean to imply that the forum membership in general was the "culprit". I was simply referring to the fact that a few poorly worded comments caused a huge fire storm that got out of control, and it escalated into what amounts to a huge mess. If you can somehow associate the word "victim" in that context, I think you might have a better idea of what I meant.
Having on at least one occassion put my own foot in my own mouth, and losing the respect and friendship of an individual on this board that I admire, and hold in extremely high regards in the process, I've learned to think a little more carefully about what I write. Or at least I thought I did. The fact that you, and at least one other person so far did not understand my intentions tells me I've still got work to do. There is a point to my madness. I was trying to be very general for Amie's sake, and my own since I have an opinion on why this got so out of control. I will not elaborate any further because doing so would require that I possibly offend another forum member. It takes at least 2 to tango, and my personal feelings are that things would not have escalated to the level of ugliness that they did if more of us had just said "yuck" and moved on to the next thread, or composed the next reply without commenting on the original offensive comment. I was just as offended by GD's implication that we all don't know what they heck we are talking about as the rest of you guys were. I had an unusual problem that was caused by the shape, size, and materials of my TV. I initially blamed the speaker, but further investigation proved that it wasn't the cause of the issue. I find it entirely believable that GD heard what he says he heard, but I also think he didn't take the time to find out what the REAL culprit was. But did it really need to get that far out of control? I feel that the comments he directed at you and some of the others were ENTIRELY out of line. You did NOTHING at all to deserve that. Some folks did assist with pushing him in that direction, though, and I feel that it was a small part to a larger picture. Yes, his behavior did cause the bulk of the problems, but someone took a unnecessary shot at him a while ago, and from that point on he was a stick of dynamite with an already lit fuse.
I understand the silence / consent relationship, but sometimes silence is just simply the refusal to go below a certain level.
I apologize to ANYONE who misunderstood what I meant, but I am not sure that I know how to clarify it without muddying the water even more. Amie asked for comments about conduct, and I was simply pointing out that sometimes things happen in a written forum where the lack of the tonal inflections present in spoken word cause misunderstandings, hard feelings, and overall hate and discontent. When speaking face to face with someone, we also hear what are saying when we say it, and we glean from other's facial expressions and physical reactions wether or not the intent of what we are trying to say is getting through to the person that we are speaking with. In a written forum, you write what you think you want to say, and hit send. If the other person is offended, or doesn't get your point, you have no way to know that until a heated reply comes back your way, and you go "whoaaa! what is this jerk saying?". By then it is too late, and the argument just keeps escalating and escalating. (wow... I think I just accurately described what I meant by "victim") I think if everyone involved in that thread were sitting around in the same room, drinking beer, and having the same discussion, it would have turned out differently. It would have been a very heated discussion ending either with an "oh well, we agree to disagree" or an all out rumble, followed by more sitting around tilting back more tall, cool ones...
Oh... and how I've been able to hang out on here for as long as I have without seeing that "notify moderator" link is beyond me... Can I borrow your bifocals, Jack?
Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this thread. A lot of you have made the points that we feel also and it is excellent to see them reinforced.
After reading through all the suggestions, I think the code of conduct is clear, and we will formulate it and add it to the header for all to read and agree to before they post. Although we do not want to leave our 'open-board' policy, it's clear that there are occasions where posts need to be deleted or, in extreme repetitive cases, users need to be banned. Following the suggestions put forth of using the “Notify Moderator” icon we should be able to let the board members decide through multiple complaints when action is necessary; we are still hesitant to make all these calls ourselves. This leaves the boards open unless multiple complaints from board participants are received. BrenR's suggestion to disable HTML is also a good one and has been followed.
I am sure we all look forward to the return of the Axiom Boards we all remember; an open, welcoming, friendly environment that seeks to help and improve our listening experience. They are certainly a big help to us here at Axiom for all kinds of feedback we can use to improve our company. In fact it was a message board post, a challenge really, that started the research that ended up becoming the EP500 and EP600 with their revolutionary DSP engine. Albeit it took over two years of research to answer that post in the form of products but it did eventually happen.
Michael, I meant no insult and hope none was taken. As I said, my reaction was one of surprise, not anger. You've explained your point well, and I now understand it.
I DO believe that feeding the troll just makes things worse. But, the difficulty arises when differentiating between feeding the troll by lowering yourself to his level, and reasonable rebuttal.
Being specific, it was one posters implication that the original poster could NOT get an objective opinion from anyone on this forum, and must go elsewhere to get a reasonable answer to his question that set things off. Being one who believes there is NO SUCH THING as an objective opinion, I agreed with the the first part of his implication. The thing that bothered me was the general implication that an objective opinion could be found elsewhere, and specific implication that any opinion would only be objective if it agreed with his own.
What if the original poster BELIEVES that? It's not so much that I feel the necessity to defend the forum's honor, although that is, admittedly, a factor. But, rather it's the desire, and commitment to provide the original poster with accurate information. I feel it's important to answer that kind of misinformation, for the forum's sake, for Axiom's sake, and for the original poster's sake.
When he resorts to name calling, I feel no need to respond in kind, because that kind of behavior speaks for itself. I do feel the need to point out that that kind of behavior is unacceptable. The trick is to do so on a higher road than the troll, so as not to feed him.
Thank YOU, Ian, for great products, and for providing a place where we can come to talk about them, as well as products from other manufacturers. We are all in your debt.
In reply to:
Oh... and how I've been able to hang out on here for as long as I have without seeing that "notify moderator" link is beyond me... Can I borrow your bifocals, Jack?
My presbyopia must not be being assisted by my bifocals...
Where is this "Notify Moderator" link seen?
I have been looking for it and do not see it...
One blind man groping in the dark...
WhatFurrer
Where it says Post Extras:
Right under signatures, there are 4 icons. Its the last one on the right.
Man if it was a snake....
It's the last icon at the bottom of this post where is says "post extras".
Steve, at the bottom of each post is a line that begins "Post Extras:" followed by 4 icons. Hover your cursor over the 4 icons, and you'll find the last one is "Notify Moderator."
Now if someone will just explain to me what the "Remind Me" icon is for. I'd just click on it to find out, but I'm afraid to see just what the icon will remind me OF.
I'll second Jack's comments. Your products are terrific and have provided me with many, many hours of pleasure. And this forum feels very much like a second home and I'm thankful that you're gracious enough to host us. Thanks, Ian!
[Homer Simpson voice]
DOH! [/Homer Simpson voice]
How many of you have looked at those over and over again and NEVER seen them...
ME!
Baaa...do I feel sheepish. (no comments from the peanut gallery
).
Ian, I also echo Jack sentiments. Thanks!
WhatFurrer
Well things seemed to have been settled, but I'd like to personally thank Amie and Ian (and Alan) as well for these boards. It's my home away from home. I too try to stay out of the "troll threads", but it can be very hard sometimes. I didn't realize there was a "report post" button until just now. I'll be sure to start using it as necessary.
One question...will people who have posted things that are found to be offensive be notified everytime someone presses the "report post" button? I know personally I'd want to know if something I posted was a cause for trouble. I certainly don't post offensive things knowingly.
Oh Spiff, I suspect everybody here likes you.
See what I miss now that I have a job! Although I wish it did not have to be created, there does need to be a code. It amazes me that it became necessary.
I really do enjoy the boards. We can have some good-natured fun while helping each other in our pursuit of a great HT setup. I know I have said this many, many times, but I want to thank all the people at Axiom and all the great board members (which is most of you) for all the help you have given me (and will give me in the future).
In reply to:
Now if someone will just explain to me what the "Remind Me" icon is for. I'd just click on it to find out, but I'm afraid to see just what the icon will remind me OF.
Oh, Amie put that in there at my request. I told her there were some old dudes on this forum and they were likely getting forgetful!
Running, looking for a place to hide and finding only an EP600 is big enough to hide behind.....
Oh, and "ditto" to Ian!
The remind me is actually an add favorite button. If you look in your My Home, you'll see a potential list of favorite threads.
Man, we can even get the Code of Conduct thread off topic!
Anyway, I want to give a heartfelt thanks to Amie and Ian for providing us this space to play in. To second what everyone else has said, this is a great community, and the trolls are happily quite rare. (compared to half of the other boards out there.) I must say I've learned more civility in my online communication since coming here...
As everyone knows by now, I'm relatively new to these boards, but overwhelmingly impressed by the professionalism and willingness of its members to assist both non-Axiom and Axiom owners. Already, many have taken the time to help me in this process.
I also noticed that rarely do you find a board where the President, and others within the company, frequent and provide positive feedback. This is a rare board and I would hope its success continues.
In my opinion, the only way to ensure this boards continued success is for those of us who enjoy and use it to play police to the bad or "non-compliant" posts, and report them ASAP. The Code of Conduct would be the guideline everyone would use to follow when reporting a bad post or user.
Wisenheimer!
Yeah, I'm afraid if I click on the "Remind Me" icon, I'll get a pop up that says "I want to remind you that YOU'RE OLD!" Is that you behind the EP600. Can't be. That person is rather good looking and looks almost human.
There hasn't been any response to my question s to how techno;ogy may or may not help this situation, but I had a thought while I was out shoveling snow (shoveling
again I should say, and I don't want to hear about it BigJohn!
).
If everyone HAS to supply a valid e-mail address, could a system be set up where a person receives a warning (via form e-mail) and after that, the "account" would be deleted?
Yes, that person could then re-sign up, but I really think that if this cycle continued, it would be much more time-involved from that persons' viewpoint rather than the 60 seconds it would take a moderator to send the form letter and then delete the account.
I don't want to make work for Amie (or anyone else), but I don't
think it would involve much time.
Another consideration would be to make someone else a moderator. On larger forums, there are frequently several. A "middleman" also might help to "separate" Axiom from a problem person.
Just random thoughts....
In reply to:
Is that you behind the EP600. Can't be. That person is rather good looking and looks almost human.
Jack, are you coming on to me?
Yes, it's me with my eyes physically big (trying to look scared) rather than artificially, photoshoppy-big.
In reality, my eyes are virtually non-existant.
I'm sorry for helping to take things OT... I thought a little levity might help the dreariness of the situation!
Ian and Amie - let me echo the other thanks on the board. There is really no reason for you to provide this board in the manner you do (except to have us sell a gazillion $$$ worth of speakers for you
)
On a serious note, this board is unique and I really enjoy the opportunity to wander around in it. Ihave also made some good friends and that is always to be treasured. Thank You.
Well, well, well. I'm gone for half a day and look what you all cook up. A code, though not in the best interests of free speach, will be a good thing. I do not think we are talking about Stalinist Russia here. I often find it both amusing and sad to see grown adults stoop so low as to verbally assult each other over audio, but there are all type. I have been on the recieving and giving end of some joking but that is about as far as I have ever taken it. Just today I felt that I may have hurt Jacks feeling with my kidding. I took it upon myself to send a PM to make sure that he understood my comments and joking. We need to take a step back and again look at that we are here to support one another. If there is a Troll around, my best solution is to just ignore the jerk and move on. Well, maybe a joke here and there before I move along.
In case there's any doubt as to what brought this to a head,late last night(very late for him)on "Who's Online" I noticed Ian reading "test html" and certain other posts. As has been already said, this isn't a public forum, but rather a private Axiom activity. No questions of free speech or censorship arise. Remarkable latitude has been granted to us in the past and I hope that this isn't lost because of the rather childish behavior of two individuals in particular recently.
I suspect that the vast majority of us will agree with, and have no problems following, any rules that might be created. That vast majority, in all probability, already lives up to their standards.
You know I knew this would happen at some point, but I'm kinda surprised still. The only three forums I frequent are:
- Ars Technica's Open Forum
- AVS Science's AVS Forum
- Axiom Audio Boards
I've dealt with enough childish, punk kid, script kiddie, type users in my work life that I don't need it here.
Disabling HTML might be an idea, or at least limiting the allowed tags (IMG, B, U, I, OL, UL, LI, etc).
Upgrading software: PHPBB is free, and easy to install, it's a lot more powerful then this, and the post layout is better, you reply to a Thread, instead of a an individual post.
Thirdly, Moderate. I'm not talking marshall law here, but it's pretty obvious that if you spend any amount of time here, and I mean serious time, helping others, talking to everyone, etc. Then you can easily see the nice guys and the not so nice guys (ladies too!).
I'm willing to help in whatever aspect I can, be it forum moderation, or system management. Whatever you decided I'll back it Amie (unless you come on in a drunken stupor after Ian going on about his dream EP60000 subwoofer with 24 drivers!). All jokes aside, I'm a helping hand.
Regards,
- D
Did you somehow miss the "I want to be an Axiom Forum Moderator line?" It starts waaaay back there.
I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread, but I can imagine there is an overwhelming support for this. I'm not one to follow the crowd
, but as a fan of Axiom's
EXCELLENT products and as long as it stays that way, I will gladly and fully back this.
>>Although we do not want to leave our 'open-board' policy, it's clear that there are occasions where posts need to be deleted or, in extreme repetitive cases, users need to be banned. Following the suggestions put forth of using the “Notify Moderator” icon we should be able to let the board members decide through multiple complaints when action is necessary; we are still hesitant to make all these calls ourselves. This leaves the boards open unless multiple complaints from board participants are received. BrenR's suggestion to disable HTML is also a good one and has been followed.
I really think this is the best compromise. Many thanks to all at Axiom for letting the board stay "free". Adding moderators seems like an easy fix but it just brings a whole crop of new problems.
If we stay with the "open board" approach we all need to help out by "not feeding the bears". We need to soften that "silence implies consent" sentiment and assume there is a collective common sense here that we can rely on.
If someone is out of line, gently remind them. If they *stay* out of line, ignore them and move on to another thread even if you feel the need to set them straight. If the offending party moves from thread to thread doing the same thing then and only then do we want to start escalating.
One thing I don't fully understand is that some of the most petty and childish posters also (at different times) offer up very valid, insightful observations which we all benefit from. I have seen this on other boards as well.
Anyways, glad we're discussing this. I think we were all getting a bit PO'ed recently.
John, I agree with the sentiments you expressed. One gentle reminder should suffice. After that - dead silence. There is no ability to argue with input to refute.
Everyone must agree to that approach or the thread will continue interminably. If anyone continues to argue with the individual, there is no end to it.
I am also concerned that the little "report this thread" icon may abused a bit, so I'd want to err on the side of restraint.
Finally, some offers have been made for assistance. The more technically capable of us may want to try and contact Amie directly, likely via phone, to provide some technical advice that allows Axiom to 1) control and safeguard the board and 2) suggest some tools/technical solutions that gives Axiom a little mor eammunition to track down or eliminate these types of folks.
I thought of one other thing........maybe if some "regulars" drop the name-calling........such as "Troll"..(that odd, tired, moniker is a pet peeve of mine, and doesn't seem to fit), and others,....replace it with "folks", (like you said, Ray) or, something else non-offensive , and more apropos.
Just an after-thought.
Larry, just my opinion, but a "troll" is a "troll," which is quite different from "folks."
I'm perfectly OK with ignoring the insults, thereby NOT feeding the fire (I just got a PM from Genetic over at Audioholics telling me "Get Lost! dude shouldnt you be over at the axiom boards creating trouble"? I ignored it). But, my question about what to do when the offending post is simply not true hasn't been addressed. Example: "you can't get an objective opinion at this forum," which is both untrue AND insulting. Or "Everybody here is a troublemaker." Do we just let that stand for all to read, and for all time? Or do we, without malice, rebut that?
Jack,
IF anyone takes the time to read your posts.....they will find you are one of the nicest forum members........"they" are most likely "yanking your chain".
THE biggest thing I have learned in this forum , (the only one I have ever been on) isn't about audio...but people, and the written word. (one error, or typo can change everything).
Without getting TOO serious about it,....having these "threads" hang out there...for months, even years, DOES make one tend to think about how, and what they post.
Please, in the words of Roberto Duran: NO MAS... (Trolls).
LT
I also recieved a less than..... lets say cival, PM from Jeffrey and ignored it. Of course, maybe I shouldnt have insinuated that he was 10 years old. For that, I am apologetic.
Me too! My PM read "get lost fool............" My cats were looking at me funny and wondering why I was laughing so hard.
The PM I got was MUCH more colorful than that.
Thank you, Larry. Very kind of you to say that. But, I'm not naive enough to believe that there aren't those, in addition to Genetic, who would disagree with you.
Jack, I always appreciate your emphasis on courtesy on the forum.
In answer to your question about what to do about inaccurate information--I think JohnK is a great role model. I have never seen him become personal in his posts. He simply provides information, often in the form of a link to a source. If it is an opinion that you disagree with I think it works well simply to offer another point of view without acknowledging the offending post or engaging with troublesome poster at all.
I have been dismayed on several occasions that when something innappropriate is said and the whole thing is perpetuated by far too many people feeling the need to chime in. I tend to look at it from the point of view of a newcomer to the forum. I'd be looking for solid information on topic. Perusing the threads, I come across one of these little flame wars right of the bat--I'm gone. The faster these things leave the front page the better, and the way that happens is for everyone to stop posting in the thread.
In reply to:
Of course, maybe I shouldnt have insinuated that he was 10 years old. For that, I am apologetic.
You're far too kind. I'm not sure it was possible to reach any other conclusion than you were dealing with an adolescent. Of course, at that age children usually refer to themselves as "going on eleven" or "ten and a half". Perhaps that's what he found insulting.
Thank you, Mark. I agree with everything you said, but I want to comment on this.
In reply to:
The faster these things leave the front page the better, and the way that happens is for everyone to stop posting in the thread.
Though I absolutely agree with that, the posted untruth remains available to anyone who does a search for the topic being discussed, even for years. That's what is bothering me. It's not like the thread self destructs in 10 days. It's there for all eternity. If someone can just say something that will make me say "Ah! Good! Then I don't have to worry about that." I'd be REALLY grateful.
Though, if I understand you correctly, you feel it's OK, as do I, to post an opposing point of view to the offending untruth in a non-threatening way. My only concern with that, assuming we are dealing with a genuine troll, is that he will simply not let up. He will view, as Genetic did, any contradiction of his viewpoint as a challenge, and bingo, we're off to the races again. Yet if we don't contradict him, he will feel free to stick around and continue the bad behavior.
I'm having trouble, in my mind, finding a satisfactory solution. If we respond in any way, we lose; if we don't respond, we lose. DOH!
In reply to:
Perusing the threads, I come across one of these little flame wars right of the bat--I'm gone.
I hear what you are saying but the question is - gone where?
There isn't a board on the INTERNET where these things don't happen occasionally. We can discuss it till the cows come home but in the end it can't be controlled or eliminated, only minimized, perhaps by a moderator. I'd hate to see it come to that. What we are all getting worked up about here is pretty mild compared to what I've seen in other forums (audio or other wise) and even on this very board there have been, in the past, much worse incidences than the present one. I just hope that what ever the decision is, it doesn't cross the censorship line. I just hope we are all not overreacting to just one or two foolish people making an ass of themselvs.
Just my 2 pennies worth
First, there are too many "Mikes" on this forum. Some of you are gonna have to change your name.
(I know. I know. That's why we have screen names.
)
Mike (dmn23), thank you for saying what I wanted to say.
Brady, that you would apologize for what you implied speaks highly of you. But how could you think otherwise of such juvenile behavior.
Mike (mwc). Well said! I may be naive, but I'm not worried about the "code." I'll be surprised if it doesn't simply state what we all believe is the proper behavior for this venue. By putting it in writing, and requiring all members to agree to it, it just gives Axiom the leverage to pull the account of any offenders, no arguments.
I responded to Genetic in this last incident and wonder if I should have. It certainly CAN perpetuate things. I felt like he was insulting friends of mine and that it was uncalled-for and one sided.
I really have to agree with Jack, though. Sometimes it's just plain ole' wrong to NOT rebut wrong information.
I think the key is that yes, you DO refute or disagree with something that is untrue, misleading, or one-sided (and attempting to squash alternative opinions). But when it DOES stoop to the level as it did here, the responses can't be personal (as I admit to doing this last time).
Whenever things resort to name-calling, it's time to hit that "notify moderator" button. It's unacceptable and WILL reflect on us as well to let it denigrate an then be available for months and years for others to read.. If the moderator than deletes that post or thread, it will be expunged from future viewers and attendees. In the example I gave earlier, it's comparable to removing the graffiti and telling the person to run along. If it happens again, they're out for not playing by the rules.
It might be likened to an attitude of "don't throw the first punch". Respond factually with an alternate viewpoint. If the other person throws a punch, notify the moderator
I can see that the "Notify" button will lead to many being reported that are the "trolls" being immature.
I have always kept my faculties, and responded in kind to the questionable threads. I can atest that this does not always work - see recent thread with Minirock where I am called "sweetie" for asking for clarification of his points.
The bottomline is something I said many months ago when Sonicfox asked where I was - the board/forus/threads sometimes go beyond common decency, at which point I tune out.
To evict someone from the boards will lead to them registering as another user.
In reply to:
I felt like he was insulting friends of mine and that it was uncalled-for and one sided.
Bingo! I am forced to admit that is what set me off. I mean he insulted TomTuttle and Ray3. TOMTUTTLE & RAY? Common! Two of the nicest, friendliest, most helpful guys on the forum. They're both pussycats. For that, I couldn't let him walk away unscathed.
In reply to:
Two of the nicest, friendliest, most helpful guys on the forum
SAYS WHO???!!!
sorry, just thought we needed a joke in here somewhere...
bigjohn
Mike (of the BBIBH flavor) wrote:
In reply to:
To evict someone from the boards will lead to them registering as another user.
I don't disagree with this but wonder:
If it takes a moderator 30 seconds to delete a thread or a user, but it takes 8 minutes for someone to register, how many times will somebody re-register before they realize that there are easier targets somewhere else?
Maybe it's that attitude you take with car thieves: If they want the car, they're gonna get it. But if you make 'em work for it a bit, they''ll likely go for something easier?
The key might be making registration a complete enough process so that there's some info to track someone, and they have to put in a touch of effort to join, but not make it so difficult that legitimate people are turned away.
Remember that in terms of marketing, "looking" as an anonymous user of the forum is still available.
I'm not trying to tell anyone at Axiom their business, just throwing some food for thought out there in case there's a useful tidbit!
B.J.
I thought that was "Pmbuko's" gig.
LT
At the same time we don't want to make it complicated enough that it might discourage a potential buyer from creating an account and asking some questions about Axioms. Which would be my concern if the account registration process were somehow made more "complete."
I think that is also the only time I cant stay out of it. When I hear someone insulting people who have done nothing but help me through
setting up my system.
Guess I'll have to try harder.
Cant they block a specific computer and the user?
Wow, a couple of pussycats and a sweetie. I'm beginning to feel, I don't know,...pretty.
This thread may have had a nice cleansing effect. With the growth that it has experienced in the last 12-15 months, the board cadre has displayed a pretty good approach to information sharing, friendly banter and has managed to exist within a nice mix of constraint, politeness, humor and some self-policing.
We don't have a major problem in this instance, but rather one that is out of the ordinary in proportion to what we are used to seeing. The bad news is that increased growth of Axiom knowledge will lead to more folks AND trolls visiting to chew on information (or board participants
). Except for the Trolls part - it's also good news.
Let's also look at the upside of this little drama. I think the rabble we have been to this point
has come together in a very healthy discussion and will lead to a heightened sense of "what's right" and reacting in kind without needing to move to a full blown martial law state.
Based on the thoughtful, meaningful and personally motivated input and comments in this thread , I believe there is more of a formal shared value/sense of community than we have had to this point and a realization of the pride in being part of it. A common term used in sports - "Not in our house" might apply here.
Forgive me for wandering, but GeneticDrift, miscreant that he is, has really sparked a positive end to his shennanigans.
Hmmmm (as he looks around), can somebody please help me off this soapbox so I don't fall and hurt myself?
Ray wrote:
In reply to:
I'm beginning to feel, I don't know,...pretty.
Jeesh Ray, there's no need for you to ever worry about that.
Regarding everything else you said, I think it was as well-stated and important as ever.
But that "pretty" thing? No. Really................ No.
Edited: Well, maybe in heels and a nice skirt.....
Ray
Nice to see that your in touch with your femenine side.
In reply to:
I thought that was "Pmbuko's" gig
i am his under-study..
but he is still leaps and bounds above me!!!
bigjohn
When I said that coming across one of these little flames and I'm gone, I am speaking from the point of view of a propective Axiom customer. Seeing that kind of thing I would tend to SHOP elsewhere. That is why I think it is important to let bad behavior die as quickly as possible. Once well reasoned and supported information has been posted in a thread that has a bad post, we really have to let later searchers make up their own minds about what they want to listen to.
Reporting posts that we think are trouble to the administrator with a note about what we don't like leaves the situation where it belongs, with the owners of the business deciding what is best for their business, leaving such poss or not. Ian and Alan are in the best positons of all to address the situation with someone who might not make a accurate statements about Axiom products, are they not? We can assist in this by judiciously calling their attention to potential problems in a timely way.
I know how it rankles to have someone insult a friend and meekly stand by and do nothing. I suggest imagining us all seated at a large banquet hall. Someone gets up, takes the microphone and says something really out of line. Is there really anything more effective than absolute silence and then turning your back and going about your business?
I suspect most who make offensive statements are fishing and will move on quickly when no-one takes the bait. Wouldn't it be fun to see how fast they actually do move on?
The bit about the banquet is a very interesting point. The people I feel sorry for are the ones with innocent (not quite the right word) questions who start the thread. Then the trolls (sorry, but that's the term) jump in, and we all have it out, the thread is ugly, and usually some poor new guy is left there holding the bag with an unanswered question.
I know that some of you see the off topic thing as related to this, but usually threads go off topic mostly after the question has been answered to some degree.
Yeah, I certainly agree about seeing a thread go really amok on someone. I think about someone thinking about Axioms, registering, asking their first innocent question and having the thread highjacked into a flame war... ouch! I think it would kill my appetite if I were the poster.
Happily, I didn't stumble across the forum until long after I'd bought my Axioms. Who knows what junk I'd be listening to if I'd spent ten minutes reading some of these posts?
Mark (the MD55 flavor) wrote:
In reply to:
I suggest imagining us all seated at a large banquet hall. Someone gets up, takes the microphone and says something really out of line. Is there really anything more effective than absolute silence and then turning your back and going about your business?
And I reply, only half-joking-
Ummm, a baseball bat?
Everytime there is some 'bad' conduct over here I always miss it and jump in when the dust is clearing. I can only say that I like my Axiom gear. I think anyone who has a bad experience with any of these products should resolve this directly with the company. This forum should not be the place for foul language.
Meow. Purrrrr.
Does this mean that I'm just furry and not pretty?
You guys are alright with me. Somebody get Bray and Jack to fire up Kumbaya or something.
How about ROW ROW ROW YOUR BOAT in rounds?
UGH, I guess I'll just have to get used to that "Trolls" term........I can see you guy's are not going to give it up.
BUT.....when I see someone type in "Trolls" here, I can't seem to get the picture of them, and a bunch of guys leaving their local comic book store , after a game of D&D, going home, and logging in here...out of my mind.
In reply to:
...leaving their local comic book store...
Hey!
I'm not familiar with the term troll as it's used here, but I'll accept the terminolgy if it's commonly used...i.e., if the troll fits.....
Perhaps it's time to discuss the etymology of the term 'troll' as it's used here. The term has much more to do with the fisherman's version of the definition: a lure or net dragged alongside the boat, used to ensnare fish.
So when you think of the term troll, think of someone planting hooks in the juicy meat of the thread just waiting for someone to take a bite. They don't necessarily have to look like warty and disfigured creatures of folklore.
But if you want to think of them as warty and disfigured individuals, I've got no problem with that.
Don't worry Spiff. Not all of us think people into comics are "Comic Shop Guy" on the Simpons. And, according to
PVP you are on the cutting edge of a new movement!
Speaking of comics (HIJACK), have you seen the preview for
Constantine? Did you know that it was coming? Any other JC fans here who are worried that this movie will be Matrix 4?
LOL...that's too funny. The shop I go to is very neat and clean. Never crossed my mind that the owner might be "family".
I did see the trailer for that...looked so-so. I'll have to wait and see.
Have you seen the trailer for
Sin City? Now
that looks amazing!
I've only heard it used that way as in, "trolling for trim", but that is a whole other topic all together...we don't need to go there with this thread
Hmm. I'll have to check that out when I get home. I can't seem to get to it from work. The comments on various sites seem positive. Plus I have not read that book, so I won't be angry at changes.
jr
I like the free-wheeling and generally civil discussions on this site. One of its virtues is its lack of moderator intrusion. By and large everyone here conducts themselves well - everyone brings their own values, character and personality to everything they do, including their participation on this site.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
There are folks who will from time to time drop into our forum and dump a load of gasoline and toss a match. PFFOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMPPPPPPHHHHHHHHHH. This kind of misconduct will provoke the warrior members to gird their loins and do battle. OK, so what?
Do we need a code of conduct? No, everyone, including those who come to make trouble know the difference between good behavior and bad. Do we have to generate a codex of rules to deal with this contingency? No.
"Even a dog knows the difference between being tripped over and kicked." Oliver W. Holmes.
"I may not be able to define obscenity, but I know it when I see it." Magistrate in United States v. Loji Sales.
So, I think the answer is, include a "report this post to moderators" button, and if the moderators are in a foul mood, push the button and ban the miscreant from this realm. This remedy should be used only for the MOST flagrant violations of civil discourse. If we are unable to accomplish this technical capital punishment, then I suggest we shun the miscreant. Ignore the post and let the thread sink to oblivion, or if the thread is worth our participation, just ignore the troll.
Let's not get our knickers in a knot over this. We have a great site. Let's just keep playing.
If I get your meaning Zarak, that's actually from the same etymological roots as the fisherman's "troll". Originally it was to stroll around aimlessly, and very similar to "trawl" which is to use some sort of dragnet, as well as to "trail" or drag something behind. "Trolling" in the fishing sense then can be readily understood as wandering somewhat aimlessly like strolling, but in a boat with a baited line cast out. So then, the slang meaning I think you're implying is drawn from that, being to roam around with the "baited hook" of sorts being one's self, and it not being fish one is trying to catch.
The etymology of the mythical "troll" (only used as a noun) is quite different and unrelated to this sense of "troll" (which is really only officially a verb.) The verb form has been sort of coloquially combined with the mythical noun form to produce a new noun, indicative of a foul individual who puts out bait and waits for people to snap it up.
I don't think you will find a noun form of "troll" in any dictionary that is listed as "one who trolls" or something to that effect.
A note from GD,
It’s been quite interesting watching for the last few days to see if anyone actually made some sense out of what transpired recently. Much to my surprise I have seen only one poster offer up the suggestion that I was disrespected 1st. The others here are still offering up the usual denial about how they indeed did institute the initial offerings of off-color comments and belittling.
Alex you offered me the opportunity to audition the m60’s at your home, which was a genuinely great offer from someone who doesn’t know me 1 iota. At this point I certainly was not considered a troll as you all have so eloquently put it. In fact everyone was pretty good when I posted about how much I loved my m60’s etc. it wasn’t until I ran into the problems with my vp-150 that the real side of the mainstay of this forum decided to surface.
Shortly after posting my woes with the 150 the threads took the immediate turn to what I term “damage control”.
In an almost twisted way I was demoted from fellow axiom comrade to being likened to another user whom, I would now guess, had to deal with the harshness that I did and was deemed to be a “troll”
The discrediting campaign had started, “it must be your room”, “mine is great”, “you’re doing something wrong”
Though it seemed a bit strange I still had to remember I was on an axiom board, what did I expect? Objectivity? (More on this later)
When I had posted my content with the cc-370 I was again met with snide remarks and usual criticism.
Well the precedent had been set. It seemed from this point on any time I would post about anything it was met with some form of spiteful reply, but remember it was me who was the troll, let’s not forget that just yet. Yes I have a problem with disrespect and yes I did retaliate against what now has proven to be the axiom pack of wolves. In the real world if someone gets in my face it’s not met with turning away. Obviously that’s the case for many of you also, as you have proven, denial or not, you did your fair share to incite and escalate the situation. But remember in your eyes it’s not a 2 way street and I was the only party deemed to be a troll, a troll for having the gumption to take on the group of you.
As far as the objective remark I meant exactly what I wrote. Think about this for a second:
You go into a ford dealership and ask about a new car, what car do you think they will try to sell you? No secret here, a ford.
But pretend you are a novice to cars, maybe it’s your 1st car. You would not get an objective fair and unbiased response from the dealership. They would force a ford down your throat until you ended up buying one. That was the point I wanted to make to the original poster. Simply look around for some unbiased reviews.
I was really shocked that so many took offense to that one remark. I assure you it really was not said with any malicious intent; it was simply to guide the poster to read all the material he could about it.
One other issue I wanted to address was when poor tbenn posted a remark in one of the hot topics and got roasted by you guys, I wanted to laugh because you guys were so caught up in your witch hunt and were so sure it was me no one ever stopped to realize hey, what if its not? And it wasn’t!
I really felt bad wondering what he must have thought.
In the end I really do like my m60’s, unfortunately axioms other products proved not to be to my liking, No harm no foul.
I never wanted to be in your secret society, I just wanted to stop by once in a while and post my thoughts. I have never been labeled a “troll” before, maybe retaliatory or irritable, but not a troll.
I think is weird how much you guys are still feeding on this with daily posts referring to “Genetic” this and “Genetic” that, while it’s flattering it is a bit strange. It’s like watching a whole town come out and kick a dead horse over and over.
I harbor no ill-will toward any of you but please take a look at yourself in the mirror on this whole situation, maybe put yourself in my shoes for a moment.
Best of luck to everyone.
GD
See, this will be the test on that "don't feed it and it will go away" theory.
In reply to:
Does this mean that I'm just furry and not pretty?
Tom, every time I read one of your posts, and see that avatar of the guy holding up the beer (it ain't you, is it?)... I think you must be waking up in the morning with a little "hair o' the dog".
So yes, I think the furry comment did apply to you.
What's so bad about a moderator? I've had chats with them at other forums and they are pretty good sometimes about joining in and keeping the chat rolling along. Sometimes they seem to be privy to all kinds of cool information. Aren't they supposed to act the same as everyone else and not be some monster robocop.
I don't think we need to change what works just because the occasional joker drops by insults us or our equipment choices. Heck, Alan Lofft does it to me all the time.
Mike, that waking up with a beer in your hand thing sounds like it could catch on. I know it will at my house!
LOL
err, sorry about that stereotypical post...
2x6,
My suggestion for curtailing people from bad mouthing equip. was sort of an off the cuff one. I doubt if anything could change except someone showing up with a moderator title...big deal..whoopie.
I 2nd BigJohns nomination..he could drive them away with courtesy.
About knocking equipment. I realized early in this forum thing that one of the things I wanted to avoid, if at all possible, was making anyone feel badly about any of the equipment they owned. One way to do this is to never say anything negative about any piece of equipment. This, however is a little unrealistic, because if you don't care for, say a given speaker brand and model, people will ask you why you don't.
My solution, and I'm sure I fail to put this into practice at times, is to make MYSELF the subject of the sentence rather than make the equipment the subject. This helps to keep my comments in the "opinion" domain rather than placing them in the "fact" domain.
For example "The VP150 is sibilant and has poor off axis response" can, justifiably raise some hackles, and/or offend those who own one. "I had a problem with the VP150 because I experienced some sibilance, and had an off axis response problem," is a bit more palatable, and allows for the possibility that the problem is a subjective one, and others may have a different experience. Of course adding "YMMV," or "maybe it's just me." helps even more. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a step in the right direction.
>>What's so bad about a moderator? I've had chats with them at other forums and they are pretty good sometimes about joining in and keeping the chat rolling along. Sometimes they seem to be privy to all kinds of cool information. Aren't they supposed to act the same as everyone else and not be some monster robocop.
We already have nice Axiom people who join in and keep the chat rolling along and are privy to all kinds of cool information. I think the question here is whether they should ALSO act as monster robocops when needed
Hi Ajax
I think it's OK to criticize someone's equipment choice, but I also think that before a resident expert does so, he should have at the least listened to the component in question.
The problem with moderators is that it's a slipeery slope - 99.9999999999% of the time a moderator's best move is to do nothing. The danger is that moderator(s) will inject themselves into the kind of disputations which make this site exciting and misuse the moderator's powers.
Hi 2x6,
I certainly didn't mean to imply it wasn't OK to criticize a piece of equipment. I was merely suggesting a courteous, more considerate, less insulting way of doing it. The point can be made without poking a finger in someone else's eye.
And, I completely agree that no one should ever criticize a piece of equipment with which they have no personal experience. I feel it's OK to pass along something you've heard about a unit you've never experienced, as long it's made perfectly clear that it's hearsay.
Wow!! I went away for a few months and came back to this. What did I miss?
A quick couple of points.
1) This is Axiom's forum and they are free to make whatever rules they see fit.
2) As users we are free to abide by their rules or to cease using this space.
3) It behooves Axiom to make this space as friendly as possible when dealing with divergent personalities. Therefore it is in their best interest to give people the benefit of doubt when questions of acceptability arise. Text and smileys have their limitations when emotions are concerned. I have no problem with a moderator as long as they allow a fair deal of flexibility.
As an example I would like to offer what I found in a forum dealing with a car model I bought last year. Moderators poured over every new post and moved them instantly if they felt they belonged in a different forum. Newcomers were constantly referred to previous posts if the moderators felt the subject had been dealt with in any form. As a result of this, one could never find their postings, or much in the way of information from the people currently frequenting the forum. It was a wonderful repository of knowledge, and useless to everyone but the moderators. I left and have not been back. Anyway... I missed what went on here, but I hope it is resolved to everyone's satisfaction. It would be a shame to lose this site.
Now, back to hoping the temperature goes up so I can return to golf.
Well if they get a moderator I hope all they do is join in the conversation and "only" change something (delete fighting or cussing) when needed and leave the rest alone. Maybe it isn't that simple, I dunno.
Hi Tin, I like your hat....were you attacked by your charcoal grill?
brain-shielding for the aliens!
least that i use mine for...
He's using the hat to cover his antennas.
Remember "My Favorite Martian"? Yup... that's him... ;P